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zKars

Source for the Cup washers on the SU Air cleaner Wing Bolts

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    Posted (edited)

    I have a decent little collection of the long wing bolts and the mating long “nuts” they thread into, but the one part of this assembly that I am lacking in is the little cup washer with the rubber grommet underneath. Been hunting for a replacement in the generic hardware world and have come up virtually empty handed. 

    About the only thing close is from RedLine Performance in Auzzie land. Many of you may have touched these over the years if you’ve done side draft carb installations.

    0E37F335-3EE8-47C2-994C-8E10CCC1CB65.png

    Redline 52-110K

    Those cup washers lower right are perfect, well, they are 3/4” diameter while the real ones are 7/8”. There is one in the first picture top right.

    I contacted Red line and they do sell the cup washers separately, in fact they make them in-house! The Sku is 52-571B $2.58

    I even asked them to please make them 7/8” See what they say.

    195573E7-FEDF-4DC5-A3F8-AF3F441E1914.jpeg

    I had previously found a plumbing washer that duplicates the rubber washer in the stock cup washer so that part is easy.

    Now this leads to three things.

    First, everyone go search the interweb and see if YOU can find a supplier of cup washers. 

    Second, Caption Obvious, machine me up a die to press flat 1” washers into lovely 7/8” cup washers! Simple.

    Third: You hoarders with a thousand of these already, contact me. I need a dozen.....

     

     

     

    Edited by zKars
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    Making a set of dies to produce a suitable replacement for that cup washer should be an easy task on the lathe. Without heat treat, I don't know how many shots you would get out of it, but certainly enough to get you through the task at hand.

    But wait a minute..... Don't you have a lathe?   LOL

    Brain isn't able to pull the details from the corners right now, but someone here on the forum did some cold metal forming recently. Made some dimples in something or made some sort of formed washer? Don't remember who and I couldn't turn it up with a quick search. @ConVerTT  ,  @grannyknot  ?

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    16 minutes ago, Captain Obvious said:

    Making a set of dies to produce a suitable replacement for that cup washer should be an easy task on the lathe. Without heat treat, I don't know how many shots you would get out of it, but certainly enough to get you through the task at hand.

    But wait a minute..... Don't you have a lathe?   LOL

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    19 minutes ago, Captain Obvious said:

    Making a set of dies to produce a suitable replacement for that cup washer should be an easy task on the lathe. Without heat treat, I don't know how many shots you would get out of it, but certainly enough to get you through the task at hand.

    But wait a minute..... Don't you have a lathe?   LOL

    Sure, but I’d like you to show me how, not so much do it for me.  I really need to stop getting distracted with fun little projects like this and get the next 510 in the shop and finish it’s resurrection.

    Heat treating. Heat until yellow, then plunge in oil right? Then call 911.  I’ve been watching those knife maker shows....

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    Haha! Ok, I think I have enough "stuff" laying around the shop that I can at least mock something up quickly and show you what I'm thinking of.

    And as for the heat treating, it's not quite like that.

    First - Make sure you know what type of steel you're working with. Not all steels have a composition that will react favorably to a heat treatment process, and even the ones that do, will have a different process depending on the composition. For example, above, you referenced an oil quench... Well that works great for "oil hardening steels", but not so good for "air hardening" or "water hardening".

    The three most common ubiquitous categories available everywhere are Oil, Water, and Air hardening varieties. I've got a bunch of "O1"  (Oil hardening) laying around here and that's what I would use, but it's probably not the best choice for a die like that either. Would be OK, but not great.

    However, you've got no idea what you've got laying around, so I would just skip the heat treat process completely unless you're sure what you're working with or just want to experiment and see what happens.

    Second - The temperature you described above is not high enough. Needs to be full cherry red. One simple way to determine if you're hot enough is to use a magnet. The steel will actually lose it's magnetic characteristic when it's hot enough. It will be glowing red and it won't be magnetic. Then quench (using the appropriate method).

    Third - If the heat treat was successful, the part will be hard. Like real hard. Glass hard. File skates across the surface hard. Problem now is that the part is TOO hard. Too brittle. So you need to "temper" the part to draw back the hardness some. For that you re-heat the part but not as hot. "Straw color" is a term thrown around a lot. Heat the part "to straw color" and then let it cool slowly. After that, the part won't be hard brittle anymore and won't shatter like glass when you put in the press to make your washers.

    And don't forget that all the while, the glowing part has been oxidizing on the surface and by the time you grind the scale off, what's left is now the wrong size....... So you add to your long bucket list of projects, an argon purged heat treat furnace.........

    I would skip the heat treat and just make a new set of dies when the first one wears out.  LOL

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    2 hours ago, grannyknot said:

    Bruce, is this what you are thinking about?

    Yes! Yes!! That's the one! Thanks! I was pretty sure it was you or convertt, but finer details continue to slip. They say it won't get any better...  :excl:

    So I guess now that you've already answered the process question, that half an hour I spent in the shop this morning doesn't add much more to the discussion. But for the record...

    For the female portion, I used an old bearing race because its what I had laying here, and it's hardened. For the male portion, I used a previously machined drop of 12L14 steel because it was already machined to close to the size I wanted. For a real product, 12L14 is definitely NOT what you would want to use as pretty much it's only claim to fame is it's ease of machinability. Doesn't heat treat, doesn't weld well, isn't particularly strong, but boy it sure does machine nice.

    Anyway, hardened race with .625 inch ID. 12L14 male mandrel with .555 inch diameter, and .032 thick steel sheet. It took two tries to get the mandrel diameter correct, and I suspect this is where all the skill and experience comes in. You need the correct clearance between the mandrel and the die for the thickness material you're working with. Not enough clearance and it acts like a hole punch. That's what my first try did. So I took ten thousandths off the mandrel and things got a lot better.

    And by the way, this forming process is known as "drawing". I assume there's oodles of info on the web if you want to research.

    P1160427.JPG

    On the hydraulic press. My 2 ton arbor press wasn't enough and I didn't want to rip a shoulder out of the socket:

    P1160434.JPG

    Here's the result. Note the tear through on the first attempt and the better draw on the second (lower) form:
    P1160438.JPG

    Trim the excess material off and put a hole in the middle just for show:
    P1160441.JPG

     

     

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    Posted (edited)

    Well that was too easy. A lesson on hardening, a lesson on materials, a lesson on drawing, what more can a guy ask? Thanks!

    Now I have to go try. I got the project car in the garage easy, parts gathered, getting all gung ho. Gotta slow down and turn a little stuff on the lathe first and take my time.

    Think I’ll use 5/16 fender washers as the raw materia (assuming they are 1” or more in diameter)l and put a 5/16 nose on the male side of the press and a matching 5/16 hole in the FM side of the pocket to guide the process. Need to make a nice flat bottom 7/8 hole for the FM side to get started. Hope the radius of the corner is nice and tight like the originals. Should be able to press hard enough with my 15 ton press. Fun! 

    Looking for hardware, I even found some nice metric wing nuts with the right kind of “mickey mouse” ears that look like the originals. Apparently they are “German” style... Maybe I can work toward making replacement for the whole bolt assembly. 

    15E28248-F73F-42A4-88F0-BF2DE4BD3E9F.jpeg

    Edited by zKars
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    Excellent. Glad to help.

    I did a quick web search on the process and quickly came up with the following. This should help you get it right with fewer iterations:

    http://thelibraryofmanufacturing.com/deep_drawing.html

    Lots of good pictures and helpful rules of thumb. I should have looked first!

     

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    Posted (edited)
    12 hours ago, Captain Obvious said:

    Making a set of dies to produce a suitable replacement for that cup washer should be an easy task on the lathe. Without heat treat, I don't know how many shots you would get out of it, but certainly enough to get you through the task at hand.

    But wait a minute..... Don't you have a lathe?   LOL

    Brain isn't able to pull the details from the corners right now, but someone here on the forum did some cold metal forming recently. Made some dimples in something or made some sort of formed washer? Don't remember who and I couldn't turn it up with a quick search. @ConVerTT  ,  @grannyknot  ?

    Yup.  It was @grannyknot.  I used a similar technique to your home-made die experiment to punch and replicate the dimple radius for my rad support repair.  Neat how metal behaves if you are stubborn enough 😉
     

    Cheap home made dies 

     

    Edited by ConVerTT
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    Three guesses what I did today.

    D136C357-468F-49D9-A5D6-66CE9EF6FD65.jpeg

    D8A58617-C40A-46B5-B106-7BA26BA7E5E4.jpeg

    ECBD98E4-6908-4D4B-85C8-FBEA4DF6358F.jpeg

    22FB328F-CD39-4937-A538-8B30F289E84A.jpeg

    Dang process is very sensitive to several parameters. Centering of the dies turned out to be the biggest challenge. Lubrication was also a real helper. Corners are radiused.  Once I got it right, I can duplicate . Twice anyway. I’d like to get the depth of the female die just right, so it stops and makes a nice flat bottom. It’s a bit deep at the moment

    Notice the pile of test pieces in the background.

    Next tricks are drilling the 5/16 hole (starting with 5/16 fender washers did NOT work) and cleaning up the excess. I plan on drilling the hole first, then using a 5/16 bolt and nut to make an arbor to mount it in the lathe, the clean up the flash there. No doubt there will learning moments along the way with that too.

    I currently only have 0.035 thick tin, the original washers have a .045 thickness at the turned up lip. Will have to go shopping Monday. I will have to reduce the diameter of male part of the die, to make room for the thicker material. I have .035 gap in the dies at the moment to match the material. They feel like they would be too thin and cheap feeling with 0.035 material.

    So making is possible it seems. More news on Monday.

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    Posted (edited)

    Looks great!  Did you mill your own dies?  
     

    So I would drill the 5/16 hole in the sheet while it is still flat and then add a slightly smaller diameter  centering pin to your dies. Then press away !  It will help hold the sheet in place and improve repeatability and the hole will be perfectly centered.  

    hope this helps ....

    PS - you might have to drill a pilot hole slightly smaller than 5/16 because the hole might stretch...

    PPS - also use a slightly larger blank...give your dies something to grab on to 😉

    Edited by ConVerTT

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    2 hours ago, zKars said:

    Three guesses what I did today.

    Nice work. Love it!

    Nice pile of practice parts. Once you get the parameters right, you should be able to get very repeatable results. At least until the die is worn out. I see a lot of them torn out like my first attempt. I started with a gap that was the same as the material thickness and that was not enough of a gap. I took off about five thousandths and it made a huge difference. I could actually see the material getting pulled down into the die as the pressure was applied.

    And I found the same issue centering the die since I didn't have a center hole to use as a locating feature either. If I were to do it again, I would put a pin in the middle of the male die to locate the blank and center the male portion of the die in the middle of the other half. However, (in agreement with the suggestion above), I would make the pilot hole a little undersize because I'm not sure if the material will stretch in that area or not.

    Thicker material might be a little easier since there's more meat there to stretch until it gets so thin that it shears. If you want to know what they started with for the original parts, you should measure the thickness at the flat bottom. A micrometer would be the easiest way. My instincts tell me that the sides will be thinner than the base because the sides are what stretched in the original drawing process.

    Couple hundred more tweaks and you'll be in production!   :victorious:

     

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    Posted (edited)

    I initially tried using a fender washer that had a 5/16 hole, and die parts that pass through the hole. Seemed like the right thing to do. This didn’t pan out very well, as the distortion that happens caused the material to rip around the hole.

    1D6DC306-03B9-4646-AEA8-0F7B8DA5722F.jpeg

    I now have a 5/16” hole in the female side of the die, so I’ll use that as a drill guide to put a hole in the part after it’s formed. 

    I measured the original washer base thickness. It is as suspected a bit thicker than the walls, at 0.050.  18 gauge sheet metal is 0.048, guess that will do.

     

    Edited by zKars
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    Yeah that fender washer trial didn't work out so good. It looks to me like all the stretch occurred at the center hole instead of the sides (as I believe it should). Looks to me like the clearance on the die set was too narrow. I didn't study the guidelines from that webpage I posted earlier, but my own testing indicated that if the gap is way too big, the material will fold and wrinkle and if the gap is too small, the part will stretch in the middle or shear along the edge like a punch.

    One other thing that we haven't talked about is the base material... The easiest thing to work with would be something dead soft annealed, and fender washer's aren't. They're heat treated to some spec and then plated.  Anyway, your experimentation is keeping you safe. It's a cheap hobby, and you aren't out and about picking up anything unhealthy!

    I would really try to get some sort of hole in the part before you draw the cup. I put the hole in my test part after and it was a bit of a pain. Would have been much easier if the hole were there beforehand. At least some sort of a centered pilot.

    Looking forward to the pic of a handful of perfect parts!

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    I agree with the Captain.  Hole is too big and fender washer is too hard resulting in shear.  I would try a much smaller pilot hole and centering pin with a sheet metal blank and then adjust the die clearances until you get the result. 

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    Again, nice work!

    You can tell by looking at the stock washer that the OEM was doing it a little differently. You can see the shear line on the outside perimeter showing that they started with a round blank before the drawing operation. They probably stamped out the round blank OD and ID and then used a second stage die to draw the round blank into the cup shape. Someone more clever than I might even been able to do it all with just one die.

    So now that you have spent all that time on making a die set... Have you ever heard of "metal spinning" on a lathe?   LOL

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    6 hours ago, Captain Obvious said:

    Again, nice work!

    You can tell by looking at the stock washer that the OEM was doing it a little differently. You can see the shear line on the outside perimeter showing that they started with a round blank before the drawing operation. They probably stamped out the round blank OD and ID and then used a second stage die to draw the round blank into the cup shape. Someone more clever than I might even been able to do it all with just one die.

    So now that you have spent all that time on making a die set... Have you ever heard of "metal spinning" on a lathe?   LOL

    I was thinking of getting a Greenlee punch set to make easy round blanks. I noticed when I cut my square coupons into a hexagon, there was less distortion. I haven’t actually tried to start with a truly round blank to see what happens. I’m happy with what I’m making.

    And yes, I have seen the youtubes of people spinning HUGE aluminum disks in HUGE pots pans and other receptacles. Very long lever arms and very large lathes spinning them. Very impressive.  I will not be trying that, even on a small scale on my lathe. I see another 3 week boondoggle coming up....

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    11 hours ago, zKars said:

    I was thinking of getting a Greenlee punch set to make easy round blanks. I noticed when I cut my square coupons into a hexagon, there was less distortion. I haven’t actually tried to start with a truly round blank to see what happens. I’m happy with what I’m making.

    And yes, I have seen the youtubes of people spinning HUGE aluminum disks in HUGE pots pans and other receptacles. Very long lever arms and very large lathes spinning them. Very impressive.  I will not be trying that, even on a small scale on my lathe. I see another 3 week boondoggle coming up....

    Haha! I only mentioned the metal spinning in an attempt to guide you towards that 3 week boondoggle. The forming operation you're currently doing could probably also be done using a metal spinning technique. "It's not the size of the tool, it's how you use it."

    About the Greenlee punch... All the ones I have require a pilot hole (which has given you difficulties).

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    Had a chance last night to go through the process and take pictures for posterity.

    Won’t be taking them in for plating any time soon. 

    B0896EAB-9EBA-4046-B7A8-CFE754717806.jpeg

    Get ready

    4155E0F5-80B8-4BCB-95D3-E97DDC337029.jpeg

    Use a little bushing I made to center. 

    289D48AA-EA37-4629-865A-705E33546B0F.jpeg

    Squish!

    EE08230B-6F40-48FD-BA43-222066CA6885.jpeg

    Cup made

    9E1E8AE2-5EDC-494D-8596-EA5EDBCA0D1C.jpeg

    Turn die over, put cup underneath and squish the wings flat. Makes the machining steps easier

    BC5E1892-7783-467D-9974-338174129C36.jpeg

     

     

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