Jump to content

IGNORED

Timing chain guide


Dave WM

Recommended Posts

while checking the valve lash, I noticed my timing chain guide was fubar, it was way down and not in contact with the chain. I have the correct bolts on the thermostat housing, and I have no idea how long it has been like this. So the question is, do I pull the engine or fix it with the engine in place? It looks like I may have enough room to remove the cover and do the work after removing the rad, but I have the cherry picker, so was thinking just pull it and have easy access. I will know better what happened once I get it off, to see if there are any missing bolts etc.... that may be down in the crankcase. If that is the case I will have to pull it off as well. Come to think of it I seem to recall a "funny" noise somewhere in TN on my long trip heard it while at a fast food joint in the take out line, that since then has stopped, I bet it was the chain tensioner letting go, and then falling out of the way. I never gave it a lot of thought since it quieted down (I know that was a mistake) but since I was on the road I guess my judgment was impaired. Oh its the one on the non tensioner side (t stat housing side).

Edited by Dave WM
Link to comment
Share on other sites


I kinda want to pull the engine just to try out the N42/MN47 head combo. I could even leave all the manifolds attached that way since the engine on the test stand is ready to go. Its been a while since I pulled the timing cover, IIRC I can leave the chain on, pull the harmonic balancer, the oil pump, the pump/dizzy drive shaft, then the water pump the forward bolts and the two head bolts on the front and it should come free, does that sound right? if that is the case I think I could just do it with the engine in the car. cant make up my mind on which way to go.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Captain Obvious said:

Wait.... Slow down.

Which guide are you talking about? The tight side (left) or the loose side (right)? If it was the tight side that came loose, you probably (maybe?) did not pop your tensioner.

Have you got any pics?

tight side, without the tensioner I am sure the tensioner is working, I drove the car at least 600 miles since I heard the noise. side by the t stat housing.

Edited by Dave WM
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Dave WM said:

I kinda want to pull the engine just to try out the N42/MN47 head combo.

Well if you've got that as an option that you've been itching to try out, then go for it!

If you decide to look into the one that's on the car, then the procedure you outlined above looks pretty good. Only things I would change/remove are:

a) You don't have to pull the water pump off the timing cover. You can leave the pump attached and it will come off with the cover.
b) You will have to pull the oil pan bolts around the front of the engine that thread into the bottom of the timing cover.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So you're thinking that the guide bolts came completely out? Both of them, or just the top one? If it's just the top one, you might maybe possibly be able to put that back together from the topside by working down in the hole. If the old bolt fell down into the oil pan, it's unlikely to cause damage down there. It should sink like an anvil, and it's too big to get past the screen on the oil pump pickup. Just don't slip and drop a 10mm socket down there as well.   LOL

On edit - I'm no engine expert, but my read on that left side guide is that it's there just to keep the chain from slapping around. Under normal circumstances, it doesn't even really contact the chain and doesn't add any tension. If you could get it back into place, it's not critical to get adjusted perfect.

However, if the lower bolt came out too, or is loose, you're fubar

Edited by Captain Obvious
Link to comment
Share on other sites

roger. I think I will start with trying to remove in place, if it looks like a quick fix I will do that, if I see anything else or it get too tight a space I will pull the engine and maybe try the swap. I thought I had to remove at least a few of the long bolts on the WP

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Captain Obvious said:

So you're thinking that the guide bolts came completely out? Both of them, or just the top one? If it's just the top one, you might maybe possibly be able to put that back together from the topside by working down in the hole. If the old bolt fell down into the oil pan, it's unlikely to cause damage down there. It should sink like an anvil, and it's too big to get past the screen on the oil pump pickup. Just don't slip and drop a 10mm socket down there as well.   LOL

However, if the lower bolt came out too, or is loose, you're fubar.

The whole thing seems to be about 2" down, I will try to get a better look this weekend with the borescope. IIRC the top of the guide is near the bolt hole of the T stat front bolt. Its way below that now so I think both bolts must be out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

yea that looks doable with the engine it. I will have a condenser for the AC in the way, but with the rad out I think I can get at it. I get what you are saying about the pump. remove the bolts that go thru, but leave the pump attached to save the gasket.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Captain Obvious said:

Here's another pic so you can see how far the guides go up into the head:
P1150682.JPG

I will get a better look tomorrow but yea I would say the guide has come off completely and is resting on the lip of the pan/bottom of the cover.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Dave WM said:

yea that looks doable with the engine it. I will have a condenser for the AC in the way, but with the rad out I think I can get at it. I get what you are saying about the pump. remove the bolts that go thru, but leave the pump attached to save the gasket.

Exactly. Small reduction in effort, but every little bit helps, right?

Other trouble spots?

Getting the BF bolt out of the front pulley will likely require impact gun. You got one of those?

I recently pulled the front cover off my F54 block, and it was stuck on there pretty good. I had to really work at it to get it off, and that was with the head already off!! It can only be worse if you have it pinched between the head and the pan.

But the bottom line... If both bolts came out of that guide, you're gonna have to pull the front cover. No way you can get to that lower bolt with the cover in place.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

have impact gun, I used a 3 jaw puller on the pulley as well. I presume just remove the pan bolts on the front, maybe loosen the rest so it does not want to clamp, don't have to remove oil pan (unless I cant find the bolts, then will go fishing) will have to see where they ended up. I recall having to use a rubber mallet on the spare engine when I removed the cover on that one.

The pan gasket is one of those reusable fancy ones from MSA. I cant find any OE tight side guides, so I guess I will go with an after market kit for both.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Captain Obvious said:

Roger that.

Well good luck with it, whichever path forward you choose, and let me know if there's anything I can do from a distance to help.    :beer:

copy that. I just took another look, if I back the cam shaft up a bit to get some slack I can get a slightly better view, I think I can see a top bolt still in place, not sure how that can be, unless some how the guide has separated from the mounting frame. even with the bore scope and flash light its hard to see what is going on, but its loose as a goose so will be the next project.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

so far...

Remove fan and pulley

removed AFM and air filter to get at top rad bolt driver side (make for more room and easy to do).

drain rad, remove bolts pull rad set aside, hoses attached.

loosen and remove compressor belt and alt belt.

Now the fun, no room for impact driver (AC condenser in the way) so 4th gear, jam the drive shaft at the diff with a large screw driver to hold the engine (I tried just using the ebrake and some wheel chalks, no joy) then a 1/2" breaker bar and pipe as an extension, bingo came right off.

3 Jaw puller to extract the harmonic damper and pulley on the crank (easy with that).

Break time. coming attractions:

Clean up work area org parts and bolts then...

alt comes off

distributer comes off

Oil pump comes off

then I will attend to all the bolts that attach the cover. have to pace myself as its still VERY hot here and I don't want to do anything stupid so will take time (like when I forgot to tighten the rear brake line).

Parts coming in Monday so no big rush anyway.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Dave WM
Link to comment
Share on other sites

oh my, compressor looks to be in the way of two of the timing cover belts. I hope I can loosen/pull etc and get enough room to get to them without messing up the pluming of the compressor. Its a HUGE SWP style with a massive mount that looks like it may be a bi%%h to get loose.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

happy happy joy joy, I unbolted the compressor completely from the mount (easy) the mount I removed 3 of the 4 bolts that go to the block the hardest one to get at I just unscrewed as much as I thought safe to still have some threads in. It would be a pita to get started if I had to take it out, its kinda hard to reach and is very close the compressor (you can only move the compressor about 1" even unbolted due to the lines still attached). With everything pulled up and away I was able to get a clean shot a the 2 10mm cover bolts that were covered by the mount. I loosened those as well as the long water pump 10mm (just wanted it to come out without breaking). So I think its down hill from here (famous last words). giving it a break now will resume in the morning.

I took the rad to the shop (prater radiator in Orlando, been there forever, guy recognized the rad as a Nissan instantly). I asked them to look it over, rod it out or replace the core if it looks suspect. I would say I had about 20% blockage in the tubes that I could see right in the middle top. The car did not leak at all and was able to maintain temps of no more than about 185f but I just wanted peace of mind, besides I think the rad was right at its max limit, I have a 165 f t stat that it will hold to on all but the hottest days, then it just runs up to about mid or a little past mid, so the T stat is no longer controlling the temp, the rad is. Hoping the unblocking will allow the T stat to control temps even on hot days with AC on max (have some head room on the rad). I considered popping in Jeffs alum rad from the test stand to see how well it works, but I would rather stick with a brass/copper if I can. Something about cheap alum rads I just don't trust. I know there are some very good high end ones, but they don't seem setup for stock installs, AC/shrouds etc....

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am a little concerned about the water dripping out around the water pump, when I pull the timing cover off am I going to get a bunch of water coming out of the block flowing down into the pan? I have hand spun the water pump and was able to get a few oz of water to come out of the water inlet. I am going to go pull the dizzy and confirm my tang position (11:30), then will get the oil pump and pan bolts tomorrow. all the TC bolts are loose, no issues.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So the project seems to be going pretty much according to plan. That's good news!  (So far.)

Yeah, you might get some coolant spillage down into the sump, but I think if you pull the block drain first (big plug on the left side near the rear of the motor) and let the coolant out there, it'll be minimal. I believe that drain hole in the block is lower than the water pump holes. Certainly less than if you pull the front cover without pulling that drain plug first.

And if you do get some coolant in the oil, most of it (being more dense than the oil) should sink to the bottom of the sump and come out with an oil change. And regardless, I would recommend that you change the oil after this process just because it's likely you'll dislodge some junk anyway.

And nobody likes dislodged junk.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dave,
I had replaced my Water Pump last year when I was bringing my car to life. I would take the pump out before pulling the cover. Not that you have to but you’ll be able to get all the coolant that sits in that small chamber out. And it will free up space for the rest of the work. Also, if you discover any issues with your pump it might be easier to get it off with the cover on vs sitting on a bench. I’m a fan of the methodology of inspecting and replacing things when a convenient time permits. How old is the pump? For $41 it might be time to replace it anyway. Pull the pull the pump, inspect it and put a fresh gasket with a little RTV and put anti seize on the bolts. Now you know it’s fresh and the cost is almost nothing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and Guidelines. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.