Interior Ergonomics

[HS30-H]

Originally posted by EScanlon

Using an analogy: The human population has both left and right hands, yet the vast majority are right handed. There must be a reason for this. Or is there?

Although a bit on the sardonic side, it applies. There may be that there isn't a SPECIFIC reason or even an intentional decision by the designers / engineers / production / inventory folks, but rather one of .....no one questioned it until too many things had been designed, built and delivered designed with the handle on the right hand side.

That console on the car you saw, may well have been one of the few prototypes created to demonstrate that in fact it could be done for the Left hand side.

As I think about it, with the vast preponderance of the world's population being Right handed, it may be that whomever was tasked with getting the brake handle done just felt that it would be easier to use on the right hand of the tunnel.

With all due respect Alan, it may be that you are looking for an answer to a question that was never posed.

Enrique, you certainly offer good bang for the buck! Your two Cents worth goes a long way. I have to chop it up into bite size chunks just to even attempt to answer it. I hope this site has enough bandwidth to accomodate our answers to eachother.:classic:

Reading through the above, it was slowly dawning on me that you might even think that ALL right hand drive cars must be un-ergonomic for the majority of the world's population ( seeing as we would have to use our left hand to change gear ). Surely you can't be implying that!? Don't go there!..........

But regardless of what side of the tunnel the Handbrake is on -you still need to use your right hand in LHD and your left hand in RHD, so the question of right-handedness in humans is a distraction. My point is that I thought it was a little bit far away for LHD version drivers. 2manyZ's hinted that he might agree, but Victor said he was happy with it where it is. I don't think we'll find many RHD owners who would say that they thought it was too close for them ( oops! - that's tempting fate ), but the majority of LHD owners also seem to be happy. These are the kind of responses that I was interested to hear when I started the thread.

The Monte Carlo rally car that I posted photos of was built in Nissan's Competition Department workshops at Oppama in 1971 for the 1972 event. LHD cars were also entered in the 1971 event ( built in late 1970 ) and these too had the transposed Handbrakes and Consoles. I have seen very good period pictures of one the late 1970-made cars in a stripped-down condition. They quite clearly show that the tunnel pressing itself was different - so it was not just a case of moving the lever and mechanism over. They went the whole hog and made a special tunnel pressing to do it. This was much too late in the day to be anything to do with pre-production or prototypes of the bodyshells, and I am told that when Rauno Aaltonen first drove a factory rally Z he insisted that the Handbrake in the LHD version be moved to the left side of the tunnel. The Consoles were hand-made to suit in the Competition Department. I think that's interesting.

I don't think we could say that I might be looking for the answer to a question that was never asked. I feel SURE that this matter was discussed at the design stage ( I can't believe that it would not have been, given the level of detail that went into the productionising of LHD and RHD versions ).

But after input from LHD owners, it's starting to become clear to me that most LHD owners don't have a problem with the Emergency Brake / Handbrake positioning, and would not appear to believe that it might be slightly less ergonomic than having it on the same side of the tunnel as you are sitting. That in itself may have answered my question, and provide the answer to why Nissan decided it would be fine to have it ALWAYS on the right hand side of the tunnel.

I'm going to post some photos now, but the discussion has moved on a long way from when they were really needed - so I hope you'll be patient and go back to that point in the discussion again.

Cheers!

Alan T.

[HS30-H]

Here's a picture of the controls layout on an RHD car:

[HS30-H]

and here's a picture of the pedal layout in an RHD car ( I think you can see that there is plenty of space down there and nothing is difficult to use or unergonomic ). Notice the clutch-foot rest next to the tunnel and the space around the throttle pedal. Its all pretty well laid-out down there.

Apologies for the dirt and dust..........

[HS30-H]

and here's part of the throttle actuating mechanism on an RHD car:

( Again - apologies for the grime. Nothing like a close-up flash photo to remind you its time for a Spring clean.... )

[HS30-H]

and here's what happens at the other end:

NOTE: Some of these parts were also used in the throttle linkage of the S20 engine in the 432, which of course had its carburettors on the opposite side of the engine to the L-series.

Apologies for the non-standard carburettors on my particular car, but I think the firewall part of the linkage is what's important here. As far as attachment to the original SU's goes, you can see the parts that are different from LHD versions.

[HS30-H]

Originally posted by EScanlon

Major snip by Alan:......Yet Alan's seemed to imply that it was reversed, although it may be my misinterpretation.

Yes, sorry - I can see now that I was not making it clear that I was referring to badly-engineered RHD versions of cars from LHD markets ( like my Alfa Romeo 156 - which infuriatingly has the indicator stalk on the LEFT side of the column, which makes the busy nature of negotiating busy London traffic a real pain ). I was trying to point out that Nissan thought of this point, and very kindly placed the indicator stalk on the left side of the column for LHD cars, and on the right side of the column for RHD cars. Thus leaving us free to change gear with one hand and flick the indicator stalk with the fingers of the other hand.

There's a joke in there somewhere but I'm damned if I can find it...

Alan T.

[HS30-H]

By the way, that "An American car, built in Japan" quote was from www.zhome.com - and the "Z History" section of that site contains some very interesting theories. There is a lot of stuff in there that I totally agree with, but a few things that are perhaps somewhat overstated............

The last time I criticised zhome here on 240z.org I very swiftly got my knuckles rapped. However, I think zhome is big enough to take a little critique and I'm not daffy enough to think that my opinions will cause anything on that site to get changed. The biggest problem I have with a lot of the English-language writing on the S30-series Z in general ( notice I didn't say "240Z" - as its only ONE version of the S30-series ) is that it almost totally writes off the Home market and RHD export market cars. Its like they almost didn't exist. The "HLS30" version of the S30-series Z became the most successful of the range in terms of numbers sold - but this should not be allowed to crowd out the fact that the S30-series Z debuted in Japan and RHD versions were productionised alongside the LHD versions. I think if you read the stories, and particularly on zhome, it would be all too easy to believe that the "HLS30" 240Z was some kind of father to ALL models of the early Z car. This is quite definitely and positively NOT so. The people who designed and built the car certainly do not accept the LHD version as definitive, so why is so much emphasis put on that model when the model's history is under discussion? These "other" models were designed and productionised alongside the "HLS30" 240Z, but very rarely are they given credit for being there at the beginning of the story.

Sorry if it seems as though I'm trying to "knock" the HLS30 and America in some way. That's just not the case. I'm trying to stick up for the RHD versions as they seem to be crowded out of the story, and add a little balance.

Generally speaking, early Z owners from the USA / Canada seem to be very interested in the models of Z that they never had in their particular market. I very often receive nice PM's and messages about my own ( Japanese market ) cars, and people ask very pertinent and interesting questions. One thing that seems to surprise many of them is that the 432 was made from late 1969 - just like the HLS30 - and that other markets had 1969 and 1970 models with 5-speed transmissions and rear anti-roll ( "sway" ) bars. There's often surprise shown when the contents of the Japanese "Sports Option" lists are revealed, and they can see the depth and quality of parts that were never seen outside Japan. When I myself first discovered all this, it dawned on me that I didn't know the half of the true story of the cars that I had come to love. Unfortunately, it seems that some out there would prefer not to know and are happy with the story as dished up in badly-researched magazine articles ( especially in my own home country ) and half-baked books that purport to tell the "Complete" story. Hats off to zhome for trying to get beyond that, but I think there's still much too much emphasis on just one local-market variant.

Maybe I'll be admonished for being negative or something, but I think its worth trying to make the point all the same. Sometimes it feels a little like preaching the New Testament in Baghdad, though!.........

Cheers,

Alan T.

[2ManyZs]

I think there must have been some "cost cutting" measures in the interior design.

I never minded the e-brake being on the right side of the tunnel as I am 6'1" with long arms. But, I have seen a lot of shorter people who have to "reach" for it and for them it is a bit awkward to use, especially if the brake has been drawn up tight.

With that being said, I'm glad that I'm not driving a RHD with a short reach. Case in point? The heater controls, specifically the fan switch would be a bit of a reach on a RHD car, where in a LHD car it falls easily in hand for most anyone.

The choke control also falls easily in hand in a LHD car whereas in a RHD it could be a bit awkward to use if the car is parked and the e-brake is on, you would have to reach over the handle to use the choke when the e-brake is engaged.

I guess what you RHD owners would consider to be awkward to use in a LHD car, we would also consider some things as being awkward to reach in a RHD car. Mostly it's just a matter of what we have become accustomed to.

I did notice there seems to be very little room for your foot between the "dead pedal" and the clutch pedal. While on the LHD there is plenty or room to move your foot around. You get room on one side while we get room on the opposite side....

I recently saw some pics of a Jeep Grand Cherokee, the new Diesel model in Europe, and having seen this, it seems they still do a lot of cost cutting measure when manufacturers decide to export a vehicle. In the US, the gear shift selector is on the left side of the tunnel and the e-brake is on the right side almost directly beside the gear selector. I consider this to be a bit awkward in the first place myself as I would prefer them to be separated instead of being side-by-side. Yet in the pics of a RHD Grand Cherokee, the console arrangement is exactly the same, which means you have to reach over the e-brake handle to reach the gear shift.

I think we can all agree on one thing, with the success of Nissan North America thanks to Mr. K's guidance, and the Z being one of the first "ground up" designs to come out of Nissan after the establishment of Nissan USA, it was always intended to be a "world car".

[EScanlon]

"Fascinating" = Spock; Star Trek

"Vewy Intewesting" = Henny Youngman, Laugh-In

Well, Zedrally gets the bonehead of the day award. (All in fun, no offense intended.) From his post in reply to my query as to the ignition switch and the combination switch on a RHD vehicle:

Ignition on the RH side and combination is the same.

From that I gathered that the ignition key would be on the RH side of the steering column and that the lights / indicator assembly would be the SAME as a LHD car. Which as Alan mentioned would be a major PITA to work with, especially in areas / cities that require all turns / changes in lane to be accompanied with the appropriate turn signal.

Alan's pictures on the other hand, clearly show the ignition on the LEFT of the column and the combination switch and indicator stalks CLEARLY REVERSED. As would be proper for a RHD vehicle. I can't make out the writing, but I will suppose that the writing on the light switch is correct and not upside down.

OR.....

Could the Australian RHD vehicles have come out with LHD combination switches and ignition shrouds?

This could become a very interesting thread even more than it already is!

So, maybe Zedrally doesn't deserve a bonehead award.

But it does bring up more questions than it answers.

Alan wrote:

Reading through the above, it was slowly dawning on me that you might even think that ALL right hand drive cars must be un-ergonomic for the majority of the world's population ( seeing as we would have to use our left hand to change gear ). Surely you can't be implying that!? Don't go there!..........

Actually, I don't think that at all. Is it unusual for me? Yes, but then again, I've ALWAYS lived and driven in LHD countries. Is it wrong? No, can't say that either.

As far as being un-ergonomic, I guess I don't see why. You'd be using your right arm to hold the wheel, that's your stronger arm, and to do a simple gear change your right. Heck, if anything it's the LHD that's un-ergonomic.

That there are many countries out there who drive on the "wrong side of the road" would depend on the viewpoint of whomever is making the statement. Surely the British think Americans are on the wrong side, and vice versa. It isn't wrong when you are used to it. Think of it this way, (analogy time) A Scot or Irish or Englishman who don's his best colors for a wedding or other event that requires Traditional Formal Dress would wear a ...KILT! Try that in New York City and you'll have a lot of buffoons making fun of you. In Mexico, men hugging men is simply a sign of intense friendship and camaraderie. Again in New York City, those same buffoons would be having a hey-day.

It all depends on what you've grown up with, gotten used to, and willing to accept.

On a completely different point now.

The throttle linkage for the RHD is extremely interesting. I note that there is an angled shaft that has TWO pivot points behind the brake and clutch pedal BEFORE it travels upward to then pull the throttle rod. Then on the engine side of the firewall, it again has another long shaft. I was hoping to see that the RHD had either eliminated or dimninished the angle of the rods so that it might not have the inherent "throttle jerk" because of the angle imposed. I guess that the RHD cars also suffer from it.

I also note that the Heater Control Panel Levers all go to the left. Just a point that clarifies some of the points I'd made earlier.

This has been extremely informative. Thanks Alan.

On a final note, I note that your Horn Button has a Z instead of Datsun. Yet the year of the console and similars imply that it's a 72-73 240. Care to comment?

Anyhow, thanks for the reply. Would like to see where else we head with this.

[daddz]

I have just finished reading this thread in its entirety and would like to offer a response from a LHD perspective. My experience is limited to S30's from '76 on and S130's from '80 to '83 as well as z31's (both '84 A.E. and '86 hardtop) and most recently the Z33 bsae model. To be truthful I have never relied on the handbrake as it really is not effective as a means to park the car; I always considered it to be too fragile and I always chuckle because us Yanks like to pull the brake to the top of its travel and then wonder why it has stopped holding the car on anything more than a 5% grade. As to the placement of the thing it never bothered me as much as my passengers who thought it somewhat odd that they would be expected to share their seat with the handbrake. Curiously the 350Z has the handbrake on the left side of the tunnel on left hand drive cars (I forget where the domestic market 350Z's have it located)

http://www.240ztt.com/robs350z.html

( pics of the 350Z so you can see what I am referring to)

I previuosly owned an MA70 Toyota Supra Turbo and it had the handbrake located on the left side of the tunnel and it was not in the least way obtrusive; then again that was a really large car.

Having parted out four S30's of both '77 and '78 vintage I find it most interesting that Nissan in its infinite wisdom would change the luggage floor from one year to the next (the '77's floor trim raises up at the back and the '78's do not) and then not offer the five speed as an option until 1977. Here in the U.S. we also received the louvered bonnet from '77 through '78. Our injection manifolds also changed from a split runner design on '75/'76 to a connected runner desgin on '77/'78 models. Lastly, on the U.S. bound 280Z's the earlier storage boxes were covered and not accessible like the 240Z and 260Z.

I apologize for digressing and to answer the question regarding pedal location; I have not found it to be a problem in 13+ years of driving these cars everyday.

[Alfadog]

Yes, I was about the ask the same thing about Alan's car Escanlon - why do you have a Z pad in the middle of the steering wheel? I thought it should be DATSUN?

As for room between the clutch and the foot rest, there is more than enough room in there - the pictures may look a little deceptive however. Or maybe I just have small feet?!

Escanlon, I dont see how in those pictures you can clearly see the ignition on the left. I think it is just a tag attached to the windshield wiper/headlight stalk? As far as I know the ignition in all RHD cars is on the right. Indicators on the left.

[HS30-H]

Originally posted by Alfadog

Yes, I was about the ask the same thing about Alan's car Escanlon - why do you have a Z pad in the middle of the steering wheel? I thought it should be DATSUN?

Morning all,

Don't forget that my ZG is a Japanese Home market only model. The Japanese Home market cars had almost nothing on them identifying the "Datsun" branding of the export cars..............

This even went down to the detail of the door sill step finishers, which were plain instead of "Datsun" scripted.

Also, the steering wheel on my car is a rather rare "Datsun Compe" item - and can use the steering wheel boss from the stock steering wheels. I have chosen to use it with the Japanese Home market "Z" script boss - which the car would have originally had on its steering wheel.

Japanese market Z cars hardly had the "Datsun" brand on them anywhere. In fact I'm trying hard to think of a component that had the Datsun brand on it - but can't think of one.

In Japan the Z is a Nissan - not a Datsun.

Alan T.