Before I vote, I'd like to ask what you mean by "cosmetic modifications?"

Is it something you add or change that is not period correct, or deviates from "Z-ness" or just something that keeps with the Z Ness, but just isn't the stock or oem parts or design?

About the judging-

I think that daily driver, being over the usual 7 years old (when you are expected to trade in your "old" car to buy the newest model) could be 'divided' into a class that is older (25+years) and one that is newer (less than 25 years.) There are more parts available as replacements or customizations for the more recent models than the older ones, and the older ones are at a distinct disadvantage. For example, if you try to compere a 300ZX with a 240Z, you will probably lose because the 300ZX has all shiny new parts, and the 240Z has parts that have been repaired, restored, or from the JY.

Another reason to try a split in the DD class into two similar ones is that because daily drivers, being say 30+years old, will most likely have replacement parts on the engine, (injector connectors, fuel rail, alternator, etc.,) on the body (body side mouldings, emblems, bumper parts, and anything rubber or plastic) and especially inside (carpets, seats, dash cover, shifter, steering wheel, etc.)

That way, there is a class you could enter your low-budget DD and probably compete against the DD prepared by a person with a larger bankroll- especially in these current times when money and jobs can be hard to find, but not the enthusism.

Tomohawk,

By cosmetic upgrade I mean a change that is visual but offers no measureable mechanical advantage. From chrome plating(sorry to burst the bubble of those that believe Chrome makes a car faster!) To a cowl induction hood with nothing changed underneath, cosmetic modifications are purely cosmetic...

Let's quit talking in terms of existing ZCCA classes. This is not about them.

Exactly what classes would you have in an open(any Marque could compete) car show you would put on? Name and explain-what would you look for? Why! Don't worry about separating marques, the classes would apply to each one.

Edited September 3, 201213 yr by hls30.com

There is only one car show I participated in where I had my Z judged and that was in 2003. Every other show whether Z related or otherwise I entered the car in People's Choice then went out and judged other people's cars. Since I drive my Z and drive it hard, there are more than 20 points that could easily be deducted if I didn't spend a few hundred hours polishing, tweaking and a few thousand dollars getting the 10 yr old paint redone.

So I'm not the person to answer your question(s) about car shows since I could care less. That said I take my role as a judge very seriously as a sign of respect for those that do care and have taken all that time and money to get their cars ready.

Now here is why I responded: "further complicated by Nissan and sponsors throwing money at those that highlight what they are selling now-somethat addressed by the ZCCA with Gold Medallion/Gold cup". I am fully confused as to what this actually means and why if this is a thread on non-ZCCA shows what it's doing in the thread.

No response is required as I'm out of here.....

Thanks John, I took out the part of my original post that you found confusing. And deleted the first of the double posts and the frustrating parts of all of my attempts at explanation, I have nothing but respect for you, and if I had any idea that you would take offense to what I posted I would not have posted it, Please accept my public apology.

Back to the thread, I will hunt down and post some highres pictures of some cars-some Zs some not to get your thoughts on...maybe this is the way I should have approached this from the start...

Edited September 3, 201213 yr by hls30.com

First off, I must state I've not been to a car show (judged or otherwise) in a very long time, and the class I'm going to suggest may very well already exist:

I think it'd be fun (and educational) to see cars grouped and judged against their peers from a Cost When New perspective. It seems to me that in an open marque show, having cars separated by their nation of origin, or simply domestic and import, is inherently unfair. As our cars would fall in the Import category, we'd be up against high dollar Ferraris, Jaguars, etc. Not saying that our marque shouldn't go against the exotics, but I think it'd be interesting to see our cars go head to head with price point comparable cars of the same age-never mind the country of origin.

Edited September 3, 201213 yr by zbane

I would like to see cars grouped in an honest way. That means sportscars with other sportscars, not tuners or Mustangs or BMWs, ans the latter 3 aren't sportscars. Even marques like Jaguars would be in a different group, such as sedans, as there are only so many Jaguar models that are truely sportscars, and they were made decades go.Tuners should be with other tuners, and BMWs should be with other sedans.

Something like that.

Will:

This poll may need to be closed and a new one put up.

Your Title is:

Car Shows...what should the ideal car show be Judging?

Which, to me, says "What should Judges be looking FOR / AT "

I take it to mean: Exterior, Interior, Paint, Engine, Suspension, Body, Appearance Kits, Customizing, Cleanliness and Safety.

But your Poll answers deal with CLASSES, and how to discern which class a vehicle goes into.

Note also that while you use Modifications and Creations to differentiate, you don't describe what constitues a Modification or a Creation.

I'll use the Z's as a reference because this being a Z site, most people here should be familiar with them.

What defines a Modification? or a Creation? and are they the same as far as deductions or is one judged as or is one measured as more than the other?

Is there room in there for degree or percentage of a modification... meaning: what if it's a partial change--of a change that normally gets done as a kit, and the kit is normally considered one modification. Meaning, if you only put on the side skirts from a complete skirt package does that count as a half of or one complete modification? Conversely what about a modification that wasn't completed properly? (eg.: Rear tailights with Amber colored turn signal lenses but the turn signal still illuminates with the brakes applied.)

Is a 280ZX antenna on a 240Z considered a replacement part or is it a modification (Remember that the antenna tip differs. In one it actually protrudes past the body trim ring when retracted and the other retracts flush with the trim ring.)

It's not as it left the factory, but it was the superseded part as time went on. Same with the windshield, later ones had the tint. An owner who has always taken his car to the dealer for repairs and maintenance may find that thru the years, the dealer replaced items push him out of stock class and into the next.

Will you penalize the owner for dealer applied changes such as mag wheels, door ding strips, over-riders, vinyl roofs and styling packages (ZZZap, Seahawks team logo... etc.; and are they mods? Many owners, when the cars first arrived, had little if any choice over what the dealer "stuck" them with.

The waiting list was so long that when A car arrived, the choice given to the prospective buyer was: "This is what came in, do you want it or not?" --in essence: "Take it or Leave i!"; which some dealers took advantage of to include many "plus" items that were mostly mark-up. The mag wheels were applied so often that some new owners think that the Mag Wheel is the STOCK wheel. Some items were factory options, others were aftermarket and not OEM options. Again, it's not as it left the factory but they also weren't applied by the owner.

Is a paint job a deductible modification? What if it's the original color or not? or instead, a Datsun/Nissan color but not of the year or the model? What about a non-Datsun / Nissan color? or even a paint scheme where parts of the vehicle are in a different color, or the use of pin-stripes?

What about related items? that when one is changed, connecting items and other surrounding items must also be changed? How many points is that worth? Is it ONE change or are each of the items/ areas affected each counted as a change? A V8 conversion with a Turbo Charged Blower has both Engine and Body Modifications, is that one modification in each category or one? Then again a V8 change alone would require a transmission change and possibly suspension but the same question applies.

What about hidden modifications?

======

I think that before you define your classes you should look at what constitues change/modification and what changes are acceptable, with and without a deduction.

Then you can start considering if you want to enforce whether those mods, creations, or add-ons etc are Safe and/ or functional.

Does the car need to be functional?

What about individual components of the car, are they operable?

Where and how do you check the operation of those items? Who does it? When?

This would allow you to begin to establish a level, or at least an acceptable degree, of competition for all.

This, of course, doesn't even start dealing with should each model be judged within it's model year, style, etc. or can you compare a 240 against a 370 and how?

2¢

E

I like Mr. Stokes' notion of a 'stock' class with a limit to the number of customizations, and a modified class with sponsors or not. a 'stock' vehicle would be difficult to define exactly, but it wouldn't be to difficult to pick out what things are probably not original/normal parts, if you know approximately when the vehicle was made.

But what would you do with the outliers; vehicles that are in a stock class but with too many customizations?

Modified vehicles are costly, so unless the owner has deep pockets, sponsors help a lot, and a sponsor that is some kind of restoration or customization shop can be a superior advantage over a vehicle whose owner does his own work. Also, being able to distinguish if the owner did the restoration or customizations with hand-made or off-the-shelf parts can help to segregate things in another way.

This then brings up another conundrum: it seems possible that a vehicle can fit into one or more classes, so you take some time to figure out which one you'd have a better chance to compete in.

Edited September 5, 201213 yr by TomoHawk

If you had a 'stock' class with a limit of the number of customizations, what would you do with the vehicles that are over the limit? They should probably get moved to a group with more customizations or to a 'modified' class, but that sounds like a lot of extra paperwork, to re-class the entry. Probably a (hefty) penalty for the extra customizations would be in order, in stead of a disqualification from the class altogether.