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TomoHawk

Updates to the ZCCA Car Show Judging Rules

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the judging rules seem to be adequately defined in the ZCCA Judging Manual for the cars, but there are no guidelines or protocols for the judges themselves. Something, like a Judge's section needs to be added to keep them in line. I can say that myself, because, over the years, at several shows utilizing the ZCCA rules, there were mistakes made by "judges" that were incorrect because they were basically just some guys pulled off the sidewalk at the last minute.

One problem/mistake was by a judge who incorrectly tried to operate the vehicle, and deducted points because he didn't get the result he expected. Another was a judge who was not respectful of the car and deducted points because the door was purposely locked. A third mistake was from a judge who made an invasive test on the car's mechanics.

By defining what things a judge may do, and how to present himself during a judging will eliminated most, if not all judging problems, and make the event a better experience for all involved.

For the first problem mentioned, the judge should have asked the owner to operate the control, and he would have found it working perfectly. the judge hadn't read the car's owner's manual and therefore didn't know how to operate that control.

For the second problem, the judge should have asked the owner's permission to enter the car, and he would have gotten it, provided he didn't actually get IN the car.

For the third problem, the judge should have just looked from the same distance that any spectator would have used, instead of going up close.

these three basic rules (no touching, ask permission, "5 foot rule") would have eliminated all the problems, and made the judging process fair and less time-consuming.

I think there might be occasions when you might need to get very picky, such as to break a tie-score, but for 99% of the time, it doesn't need to be that way.

It's also a little late to get this section added to the ZCCA Judging Manual for this year's convention, but it is timely enough for next year's and anything else in the future.

thxZ

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The devil is in the details so why not actually give very specific information pertaining to each of these three points.

Why, well for one, nothing gets operated in the course of a ZCCA judged show unless you're talking about a door, hatch, or hood.

Second, if you enter your car in ZCCA show then you have already given permission to enter your car and THAT includes getting in the car itself.

Third, there is no 5-ft rule and if one was enacted I would end my involvement as a senior judge. Spectators are not judges unless you're entered in the People's Choice section. Judges look for things spectators don't and look for perfection - cleanliness is next to winning.

Picky is what separates those who have spent hundreds of hours preparing their cars for a "judged" show. A ZCCA judged show at the annual convention is exactly the occasion to be very, very picky.

Being picky as a judge shows a level of respect for those who take the time to get things right.

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I hate it when I work on an answer so long I get timed and logged out!

Tomohawk, in addition to what John said,

You have hit on one of the serious issues in ZCCA car shows-the lack of people actually wanting to give their time to train and judge. While there are formal rules in the ZCCA charter that clearly define the requirements of judges and the ZCCA relative to them, The shortage of those qualified and willing to judge leads to getting anyone willing to fill the shirt at the last moment. With the rules in the ZCCA articles effectively moot, the issue has been snowballing for years-at least as long as I have been a judge.

The time to recruit judges is not at an event, putting a check box on the registration form hasn't gotten the needed results as long as it has been done-even with some of us checking the box every time we attend a ZCCA judged show. The time to recruit and train judges is at local club meetings-if every judge would take the time to find and train at least one a year-this issue would not exist.

At the class I took from 26thZ and at every ZCCA Judges meeting I have ever been in, All judges are told to ask for the owners to open/articulate the judged movable parts of every judged car. If the owner opens the door, the assumption is that permission to enter the car has been given-to allow an operators view in judging the interior.

I have lost points for not having my gas door open-and not being there(as I was judging) to grant the permission to open it-judges get bit too-even when he told the judges in his cars class to accept parked ownership-treat her as if she's yours!

As to 5 foot rule-there is no way that a formal judging from any credible organization will take place with that restriction-if that is your expectation-enter only the Peoples choice and stay close to your car-to enforce the rule.

While there is not a judges handbook, there is a judges meeting, and it covers most of your concerns. Occasionally a new judge gets caught up in what is going on and forgets the guidelines-welcome to the real world of having more need for judges than qualified people volunteering to judge.

It never fails to amaze me that people with issues with judging rarely become judges...I became a judge for three reasons, the first was to find out what the rules actually are relative to what they were on paper and how they are interpreted in practice. The other two are not pertinent to this thread.

Edited by hls30.com

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The devil is in the details so why not actually give very specific information pertaining to each of these three points.

I wanted someone to ask for details, which shows interest.

The first item refers to the glove box light. The "Judge" opened the glove box door, didn't see any light (it was about 2pm in July) and I got penalized. the second item was that the door was purposely locked, because I wanted the judge to ask permission, and instead got penalized. The third item happened to a friend. The judge practically climbed into a wheel well to look for dirt, and found some.

Why, well for one, nothing gets operated in the course of a ZCCA judged show unless you're talking about a door, hatch, or hood.
Remember that these cars (S30s) are antiques and some are further towards coming apart than some, so it is only respectful that the owner is asked to poperate these things to prevent damage to the car, and the club's and the ZCCA's reputation, or worse...
if you enter your car in ZCCA show then you have already given permission to enter your car and THAT includes getting in the car itself.
My club hosted the 2008 convention, and there was no mention of this in the paperwork besides the usual disclaimer about damage in general.There is no such rule or precedent that I know of allowing anyone to touch or enter the vehicles. Please expand on this.
there is no 5-ft rule and if one was enacted I would end my involvement as a senior judge. Spectators are not judges unless you're entered in the People's Choice section. Judges look for things spectators don't and look for perfection - cleanliness is next to winning.
no, there is no explict 5 ft. rule, but there is no requirement for anyone to become invasive about finding things to deduct points. Judges are busy enough without having to crawl under or into vehicles.

Picky is what separates those who have spent hundreds of hours preparing their cars for a "judged" show. A ZCCA judged show at the annual convention is exactly the occasion to be very, very picky.

Being picky as a judge shows a level of respect for those who take the time to get things right.
That might be all well and good, but so are the owners, and remember that the cars (S30s) are considered antiques, so respect is in order.

Will

If you need that much time, I'd suggest using a text editor like Notepad to create your statement before you are ready to submit it.

Edited by TomoHawk

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Tomohawk

The current rules and judging sheets are posted and available to everyone-and have been for a good bit more than a year-you and I have posted about them before...if you checked them you would have seen what would be examined, and know what has to be done to examine it-that fact should have given you a serious heads up as to the level of intrusion to expect upon entering your car in the ZCCA Judged show.

BTW there is not an operational check for lighting in the judging sheets-no points should have come off for it.

No where on this site does it say what the "time out" is. I have to push the boundaries every so often and re-establish where they are...even if purely by accident:stupid:.

Edited by hls30.com

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the ZCCA Judging Manual has nothing regarding a judge's protocol. It's basically just a set of instructions on what to look at, and what to deduct points on.

In addition, there are some very notable national organizations that do have protocols set for a judges behavior and judging requirements. The AACA for example, has a judges handbook that's over 100 printed pages ad it goes into detail about everything from authentic bodies to original engines to correct tires. And it also includes a section on a judge's behavior. The Studebaker Driver's Club is another and the Vintage Chevrolet Club of America is another. These are all more prestigious than the ZCCA...

Edited by TomoHawk

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the ZCCA Judging Manual has nothing regarding a judges protocol. It's basically just a set of instructions on what to look at, and what to deduct points on.

As I said in my previous post: "While there is not a judges handbook, there is a judges meeting, and it covers most of your concerns. Occasionally a new judge gets caught up in what is going on and forgets the guidelines-welcome to the real world of having more need for judges than qualified people volunteering to judge." The Judging manual also says what cannot be deducted for...as I have pointed out before...

Other organizations that are larger and more mature than the ZCCA have somewhat intimidating Judging manuals-as a past judge in several of those, I can tell you that they are much more into proving judges training and continuing education than the ZCCA-because they have a stronger and larger pool of actually dedicated enthusiasts to draw from.

Edited by hls30.com

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Tomo, sorry but it sounds like you have a major case of Sour Grape-itis.

The judges at any car show don't have the time to have each car individually coddled by their owner showing them how you push on that button and smack the dash right in that spot and twist this knob and then VOILA the glove box light comes on. If the light did not come on, it may have been a sticky plunger switch, or an excess amount of room light making it hard to discern that it WAS on. In either case, it is up to you to try to minimize those possibilities, and yes, suffer the consequences if they do arise.

At many show by virtue of registering your car, you are asking for it to be judged. Then by leaving items open / unlocked you are allowing the judge to compare your car against the others in your class. Sometimes, with known problem items, it is necessary to delve deeper in order to discern a winner.

Judging is straight forward, is the door open?

Then the interior is open to be judged, with the possible accrual of any points to be earned from a good interior.

Conversely if the door is not open, the possible deduction of points for that.

The process rewards the owner who makes the interior judgeable over the individual who locks his car so the interior will NOT be judged.

Additionally, that owner can lose some points for non-op and wrong items in the interior.

Your 5 ft rule, would degrade the role of knowledgeable judges to the equal of any show spectator.

At that point, why not just have it judged by every other person walking by?

2¢

E

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That is why the owners are there, to politely remind the judges of certain things, such as "Let me open the door for you," or, "let me turn on the lights and toot the horn for you." It should be added to the ZCCA Judging Manual.

Edited by TomoHawk

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I don't think that he has a case of ''sourgrapeitis''as mention above, but rather a tone of let me judge all Z related topics .....IMO

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You don't need to open a door to look into the interior of a vehicle. I have looked into hundreds and have seen it all just by sticking my head through the open window, in a respectful way. Having the window open is enough so you can put your head in there and see anything you'd like to see.

This is NOT an issue of sour grapes. The mistakes I've noticed only remind me that there definitely needs to be some guidelines for judges enumerated so both judge and owner will know what is expected and how far each can go. If anything else is needed, as polite "may I....?" will take care of things.

If you really have that many vehicles to go over, then a pairs of judges is in order.

Edited by TomoHawk

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Okay, there is nothing in the ZCCA rules about working lights or the correct number of clicks the e-brake should make, so if points were deducted that was wrong. If a show is held indoors most fire regs require that cars have the electrical system disengaged. That means no horn, lights, etc. I've judged 10 out of the last 12 conventions and at none of those did I ask to see or hear a light work or the sound of a horn.

As to showing respect, looking very closely at these Zs is what judging is all about. Don't want your Z inspected, enter it in People's Choice.

You don't need to open the doors to judge the interior???!!! WTF? So the rip in the bottom of the door panel that can't be seen until a door is open, or say the door sill is rusted or dirty. Sorry but that line of logic just jumped off the cliff.

Maybe we should forget your proposed 5-foot rule and lets just have owners submit photos or maybe a power point presentation instead.

Or better yet, get yourself an old Lincoln and enter it in a regional or national event where your vehicle will undergo 2 days of inspection where they look for cleanliness, originality and working components like lights. It makes a ZCCA show look shallow and quick.

If you and I are ever at a convention again, please ask me to judge your car and I'll walk you through the whole simple process while explaining everything that's happening and why.

Edited by gnosez

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Instead of a 5 ft. rule, let's just call it an arm's-length rule instead, to make it more fair for the judges, but still respectful for the vehicle and owner.

Gnoses's comment about how an intensive 2-day inspection is a little much is correct, but the Z car/S30 isn't about that, and the ZCCA judging criteria allows for a LOT of variation or flexibility.

This topic isn't about the strictness of the judging criteria or any judging criteria for that matter. It's about defining how judges should act while examining the vehicle and how intrusive things should get.

BTW- most antique or marque organizations that I know of require a fire extinguisher (10BC) and you get DsQ'd without one- even outdoors. I'm not aware of disabling the electrical stuff, but it doesn't seem unreasonable- at the most you would just need to reset a few things afterwards. For indoors, some require such things as an empty gas tank or special fire-retardants added to the gasoline.

Edited by TomoHawk

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Tomohawk,

Why don't you make a correct manual for the ZCCA, and submit it to them-I know first hand they respond better to criticisms that come with a full set of corrections than to bare criticisms.

I do have to say after more than 20 years of judging formal car shows if a judge thought he could judge my car as well poking his head across the door as he could by actually sitting in it I would be demanding another judge-one that actually knew what he committed to doing, and had the experience to actually know how to do it-even for my convertible that would be judged with the top in both positions. A good judge sees details that most overlook, even a the best judge can't see details he cant get into position to see.

Edited by hls30.com

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That is why this topic was started; to get more ideas together and refine it into something that is reasonable enough to submit. I already have some things written up, most of which were mentioned already, but many minds are always better than one when brainstorming.

It was practically impossible to get the most recent, important, changes made, let alone to add a new section defining a whole new set of rules to something so many think "isn't broke." It's not "broken- just incomplete.

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BTW there is not an operational check for lighting in the judging sheets-no points should have come off for it.
Okay, there is nothing in the ZCCA rules about working lights or the correct number of clicks the e-brake should make, so if points were deducted that was wrong. If a show is held indoors most fire regs require that cars have the electrical system disengaged. That means no horn, lights, etc. I've judged 10 out of the last 12 conventions and at none of those did I ask to see or hear a light work or the sound of a horn.

Will and John, pg 11 of the ZCCA Judging Manual (JUDGING REQUIREMENTS - INTERIOR AREA) says the following:

"Glove Box / Lid - Inspect glove box area and door for fit and finish. Check glove box light where so equipped.

Deduct for poor fit and excessive wear. The only item allowed in glove box is the owners manual for year of

vehicle and if shown will be judged for condition. Zero (0) point deduction if the owner’s manual is not shown

in the modified classes – five (5) point deduction if missing in the stock classes."

Are you saying that 'check glove box light where so equipped' doesn't including checking that the light turns on? Are you just checking for the presence of the switch and bulb? I can see not having a judge manually operate a switch that needs to be turned on/off to see if it works, but since this switch is automatically activated when the glove box door is opened, wouldn't 'checking' the glove box light including seeing that the light is illuminated as it should, and not just the presence of a switch and bulb?

You don't need to open a door to look into the interior of a vehicle. I have looked into hundreds and have seen it all just by sticking my head through the open window, in a respectful way. Having the window open is enough so you can put your head in there and see anything you'd like to see.

You are required to open the doors according the the ZCCA judging manual (same page reference as noted above)

"Sills - Inspect door sills with doors open to check latch and striker assemblies. Inspect threshold plates and

interior door seals. Inspect threshold trim. Deduct for scratches, discoloration, poor fit and wear."

Having been to a couple of conventions, and getting roped into judging at the last minute once, I have a much greater respect for the people that give their time to judge others cars instead of enjoying the show, or showing their own car. It's not cheap to attend a convention if it is not in your home town, so giving up a big chunk of their time for this thankless (and unpaid) job is quite a commitment and people should take that into consideration before complaining too much. From what I have seen, the judges do the best they can in the time they have, even if they are human and not always perfect. If the owners are familiar with what the judging manual says and are near the cars when they are being judged (as they should be) then there will be less issues and problems.

-Mike

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Will and John, pg 11 of the ZCCA Judging Manual (JUDGING REQUIREMENTS - INTERIOR AREA) says the following:

"Glove Box / Lid - Inspect glove box area and door for fit and finish. Check glove box light where so equipped.

Deduct for poor fit and excessive wear. The only item allowed in glove box is the owners manual for year of

vehicle and if shown will be judged for condition. Zero (0) point deduction if the owner’s manual is not shown

in the modified classes – five (5) point deduction if missing in the stock classes."

Are you saying that 'check glove box light where so equipped' doesn't including checking that the light turns on? Are you just checking for the presence of the switch and bulb? I can see not having a judge manually operate a switch that needs to be turned on/off to see if it works, but since this switch is automatically activated when the glove box door is opened, wouldn't 'checking' the glove box light including seeing that the light is illuminated as it should, and not just the presence of a switch and bulb? -Mike

That is exactly what I was saying-it asks to check for presence, it does not read "deduct for lack of illumination...". There is nothing in the rules about checking more than presence, fit, and finish. At 2011 the firemarshal requirement was that no batteries were to be left connected...didn't affect judging at all

You are required to open the doors according the the ZCCA judging manual (same page reference as noted above)

"Sills - Inspect door sills with doors open to check latch and striker assemblies. Inspect threshold plates and

interior door seals. Inspect threshold trim. Deduct for scratches, discoloration, poor fit and wear."

Having been to a couple of conventions, and getting roped into judging at the last minute once, I have a much greater respect for the people that give their time to judge others cars instead of enjoying the show, or showing their own car. It's not cheap to attend a convention if it is not in your home town, so giving up a big chunk of their time for this thankless (and unpaid) job is quite a commitment and people should take that into consideration before complaining too much. From what I have seen, the judges do the best they can in the time they have, even if they are human and not always perfect. If the owners are familiar with what the judging manual says and are near the cars when they are being judged (as they should be) then there will be less issues and problems.

-Mike

That last sentence really says it all: " If the owners are familiar with what the judging manual says and are near the cars when they are being judged (as they should be) then there will be less issues and problems."

One other thing I'll add. I do enter my car in shows when I judge at a show-but in non Z shows I don't make the registration forms available so it can't be judged, and even at Z specific shows I seriously sabotage the interior to be certain I don't place. I don't enter my car to win, I enter it to help with the costs of the car show, and to be on the field, and to see what the other judges might find that I missed in the areas that I actually prepped for the show. the Gas filler was perfect when I lost the points for not having it open, I found out at 2011 I should have sabotaged a little more...

I will also apologize for the actions of those judges that continually enter multiple cars in every show under relatives names and rearrange their classes through time to continue to win-they are obviously not in it for the benefit of the community.

Edited by hls30.com

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Implied, Mike, but not written. If the glove box light is there but not lit, there is nothing in the rules to say a deduction MUST be taken. Now if the bulb was missing or the bracket was scratched THEN a judge could deduct something.

But lets expand on that thought and this really is for cars in classes other than stock since stock is the hardest class to prepare for and to judge.

If something, if anything is attached to the car then it must be as clean as humanly possible. The rules don't say that it has to be period correct or in a color that a judge likes. I might not like the lime green engine block with the purple valve cover but if it's clean no points can be deducted.

BTW, how many points can a judge take off for a dirty clutch MC?

I've got a Z related day ahead (getting frame rails shipped out, meeting with Nissan dealers and car show venues for the 2013 convention, then taking the BSR head off the race car engine with Z-YA) but I will write more tonight and maybe I'll explain the secrets of judging 20 cars parked here, there and somewhere on the lawn on a 100 degree day and why the guiding principle of being consistent is the most important thing a judge(s) can be.

Edited by gnosez

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If the owners are familiar with what the judging manual says and are near the cars when they are being judged (as they should be) then there will be less issues and problems.
Most aren't there after the call to put away the towels is heard, and it's no fun waiting for the judge to get to you, so you start looking around, or get a snack/souvenir, or whatever. Even when it's required for the judge to open a door, or check a lamp, or whatever operational item is required by the rules (which is fair enough) some courtesy is in order for the car and owner, to ask him to do the operation. then if a judge needs to get into the car, there is a proper and respectful way to do that too, and it doesn't add any time to the process, provided the owner is there.

Cooperation between judge and owner will actually save time, rather than cost time, provided the owner knows what to expect.

One thing I forgot to mention earlier is that I have experienced personally, was a couple judges that weren't familiar how to operate the car or switch and almost broke something trying to operate something.

Edited by TomoHawk

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Tomohawk,

My as a experience as a ZCCA judge has been much the opposite. Most owners are present, hovering and listening, some will try to direct a judge through the car like a mother hen, and explain away the reasons for a flaw to try to get out of a deduction, others will wait until the car is judged and ask what the worst deduction was. Judges are there to politely and carefully find the best prepared cars on the field and concentrate their efforts on that endeavor. Some people are offended when it turns out their efforts-no matter how monumental-do not put them in the top spot(s).

Every experienced ZCCA judge I have ever seen treats every car(except maybe his own) like it is a gold medallion winner, and as fragile as a a 43 year old crack free dash they are pulling from a 9/69 240Z.

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I can agree with most of your experiences; I've seen that happen too.

That is basically what I have noticed myself, about how things work at shows with proud owners, and I have always accepted the results I got. Instead of trying to improve the score at the moment by arguing,I usually just ask about what kinds of things (if there is time to ask) should get attention (fix the carpeting, vacuuming, dusting, dash detailing, upholstery repairs, etc.) because as most people know, you can't honestly critique your own work! The score sheets only have deductions, and maybe a comment or two. It's impossible to see where you ought to be putting your efforts for the next time.

Again, this topic isn't about what to do about losing points here or there. It's about defining the judge's protocol during a show, because that is as important area as "certification" or classing. It would even make the judging more consistent and fair.

Edited by TomoHawk

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Wow, this ZCCA judging thing has got me a little intimidated now. I will be subjecting my car to its’ very first ZCCA judges in a couple weeks and am wondering how I will fair. In spite of having my car judged in a number of shows, this will probably be the first time that it will be judged by someone that really knows what he is looking at. After reading this, I feel like a need a coach to walk me through some of the finer points. And, I am sure that I will forget to put my owners’ manual in the glove box and whatever else is supposed to be in there…or not in there. Just seems like there is a lot to consider. Will have to print out that ZCCA judging manual.

In reading through the thread though, I would say my only concern might be if a judge would want to sit in the interior of my car to review the dash, glove box, etc. The vinyl on those seats is over 42 years old and I would hate for something to get torn or ripped in the process. (Personally, when I sit in the car I usually lower myself straight down and raise straight up when entering and exiting, for fear a twisting action might tear the material….have I mentioned my anal retentiveness before?) Anyway, I would not be too concerned about anything else but the seats.

Thanks for starting the thread and the comments. It has put me on ‘heightened alert’.

Best regards,

Rich

Edited by motorman7

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This has been a very interesting and inlightening conversations. A couple of questions I have are, what doors, access panels, etc., are expected to be open when presenting a car in Stock Class? In addition to the owners manual, I also have the original radio operations manual, warantee booklet and card, and consumers guidelines booklet which all came with my car. Can these, also, be presented in the glove box for inspection, or would that result in a points deduction? Does the Battery need to be disconnected, and can a sun shade and dash mat be placed on the windshield/dashboard up until it is to be judged? Should the license plate be removed as it was not installed at the factory?

I do need to revisit the published rules, again, but, as we can see, there may be a lot of "Gotchas" that aren't readily apparent, given the generalities of the rules.

Dan

Edited by AZ-240z

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No problem. Chill bro...

You've got the ZCCA judging rulebook, and it's a good place to start. Go through the section for your class (S30 Stock, modified, DailyDriver, pages 7/8) and see what areas the judges will be looking AT. For example, in DD, the judges look at the Exterior and Interior only, and in stock and modified classes they check Exterior, Interior, and Engine. then print out pages 10-12, and read what they look for in each item, and try to clean & perfect that stuff.

The process is simple: CLEAN THE CAR.

After that, CLEAN IT.

If you think it's clean, clean it!

repeat..... LOL

Most deductions are for dirt or unclean stuff. Driving down the highway with the windows open doesn't count as vacuuming. :)

I think I'll suggest you totally empty the car, and put the required stuff (owner's manual) in there, and anything else in a plastic tub/cardboard box/duffel, in case you need it (spare oil, spare fuses & fanbelts, rags, wax, detailer, snacks, FRS radio etc.) that way, you take it out and use it, then put it pack in the tub. I keep the tub in the car except for when you are cleaning or the judging period.

The rest you'll learn from hanging out with people. The convention is more about the people than the car show, but for most people, it's a big exciting thing.

Edited by TomoHawk

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This has been a very interesting and enlightening conversation. A couple of questions I have are, what doors, access panels, etc., are expected to be open when presenting a car in Stock Class? In addition to the owners manual, I also have the original radio operations manual, warantee booklet and card, and consumers guidelines booklet which all came with my car.
IMO, those things are cool, but not required. I think I'd keep them , or maybe lay them in the back, but there should be some announcements or handouts in your information packet if you are required to disconnect the battery, or anything like that.

AFAIK, in stock class they check everything, so everything should be opened, but only when required. Hood & hatch can be opened right away, for spectating, but the doors & glove box need to be opened only during judging. Usually there is enough room to open the doors fully without hitting anything, but be aware anyway.

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