Jump to content
esprist

JDM Headlight cover difference.

Recommended Posts

I would have thought some regions of north America, and especially Canada, would have some 'snow' wiper blades?

Not that I am aware of. The only cold weather part difference I have seen for North America was the battery, which had a different specific gravity for cold regions.

Ok, back to the headlight cover discussion.

-Mike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not meaning to be argumentive. Its safe to say I'm out of my league, when discussing some of these topics. To me its like a big jigsaw puzzle. Sometimes the pieces fit, sometimes they don't.

I think we are all in the same boat here, Ron. I wouldn't class you as being 'out of your league'. Quite the opposite, in fact.

To me, the photo from the 1969 Tokyo auto show qualifies as "early" only in the sense of the time period. I would not testify either way in a court of law, to what type of headlight cover I am seeing in the photograph. I just couldn't say with any reasonable amount of certainty. I think we have all been fooled in similar circumstances. Chrome or polished stainless can distort quite readily in these old photographs, especially with the lighting provided and reflections created.

Prototypes, pre production or pilot cars could be outfitted with just about anything the designers were developing, shown in the media, previewed by the public but never put into production. We've all seen it.

Points taken, but I still firmly believe I can see those distinctive mounting screw positions on the photos of the 432 at the '69 Tokyo show. Here's the front-on photo again, and this time I've circled those screws in red. Does anyone agree with me that these are indeed mounting screws, rather than reflections / distortions?

post-2116-14150812927642_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes - I have pictures in some books that show them a little more clearly than they can be presented on a computer screen. Using a magnifying glass they are clearly visible.

They seem to match the drawing Kats submitted.

FWIW,

Carl B.

post-3609-14150812928912_thumb.jpg

Edited by Carl Beck

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
They seem to match the drawing Kats submitted.

Looking at Kats drawing, he depicts the example on the left as being representative of the 3 holed version found on the 432 at the 1969 Tokyo Auto Show. I agree with the notation made on the drawing. It clearly is a prototype version that never went into production.

The second example in Kats drawing is the version that has been referred to as "later" in this thread and more than likely, not thought of as "later" to someone more familiar with what has been a common place sight in Japan.

This is what I believe contributes to the confusion.

Athough the third example on the right in Kats drawing has a notation as being found on the 432R, it is not a common sight in Japan, but I have pointed out that it was listed in the earliest parts lists in Japan. It is the only OEM version that was available over the counter in North America.

Putting prototype versions aside, and the perhaps confusing "early" or "later", etc. labels aside, I still maintain there is no refuting the fact of which production version came first. Not that it even matters to me or anyone else. Its just that I wanted to explain why I tried to correct Esprist, on the way he referred to the different versions. I possibly could have been the only one thinking this way. In the spirit of the threads original title and purpose (no pun intended), I felt compelled to point out in terms of early and later, just to get the facts correct, which I now understand, wouldn't seem right, depending on your "world perspective" or knowledge of what is "in the books". The addition of "whole story" and inclusion of prototype parts that don't even have assigned part numbers, in my view, just complicates the threads original intent. It is interesting none the less.

Edited by geezer
added Kats drawing

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Ron:

Here is another picture from the 69 Tokoyo Motor Show..

at 1200 dpi you can see the screw better - I've marked it in the picture below.

It might just be the angle of the photos - but the Orange 432 seems to have the front mounting screw lower, or closer to the bumper - than the front view Alan posted.

What we need is picture taken at the same angle as the two I copied above - of Alan's lower trim ring in his picture of the pair together.

FWIW,

Carl

post-3609-14150812929342_thumb.jpg

post-3609-14150812929526_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well guys, after studying all of these photographs, I came up with a mixed bag. I will tell you first off that I am the wrong guy to make a determination that can be relied on, with a few of them.

Anyhow, post #72 was easy. Both of the Works 240Z rally cars are fitted with the same type. I think it is obvious, that we can tag them with an E4126 suffix.

In post #73 suffix E4126 is sitting atop suffix E8726.

Now we get to the tough ones. In post #77 the highlighted red circles sure do seem to indicate the fastening screws. They appear very concentric also, but I would be hesitant to bet the farm on what I think I am seeing. I don't know if it is a case of stubborness on my part to concede that it is a suffix E8726 or maybe some different part, or if it is an example of "camera trickery".

The same goes for post #78, the side by side photos. It sure appears to be a screw, in the same location, on the left hand photo, just as in post #77, but its taken from the same photo, isn't it? The right hand photo in the side by side photos is a suffix E4126.

The left hand photo in post #80 is a little tricky, I think because of the camera angle, but I would be tempted to say that it is a suffix E4126. OK, lets hear what you guys are seeing.

Edited by geezer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ron,

You're confusing me....

Looking at Kats drawing, he depicts the example on the left as being representative of the 3 holed version found on the 432 at the 1969 Tokyo Auto Show. I agree with the notation made on the drawing. It clearly is a prototype version that never went into production.

So, you think the headlamp covers seen on the '69 Tokyo Show 432 are "prototypes" - but then you say:

Now we get to the tough ones. In post #77 the highlighted red circles sure do seem to indicate the fastening screws. They appear very concentric also, but I would be hesitant to bet the farm on what I think I am seeing. I don't know if it is a case of stubborness on my part to concede that it is a suffix E8726 or maybe some different part, or if it is an example of "camera trickery".

The same goes for post #78, the side by side photos. It sure appears to be a screw, in the same location, on the left hand photo, just as in post #77, but its taken from the same photo, isn't it?

The left hand photo in post #80 is a little tricky, I think because of the camera angle, but I would be tempted to say that it is a suffix E4126.

As all of the '69 Tokyo Show 432 pictures depict the same car , the headlamp covers seen on it cannot be both "prototypes" and E4126 ( or E8726 )....

Personally, I'm not entirely convinced that the '69 Tokyo Show 432 had only three fixing screws on its headlamp covers ( as depicted in Kats' drawing ). I know that Kats has looked into this quite closely, but I'd like to see more conclusive evidence. There were many pictures published of that car 'in period', and I believe I can count four fixing screws on each cover by cross-referencing the photos taken from different angles, even though I don't have one diamond bullet photo that shows them all clearly and indisputably.....

I believe - and hope he'll correct me if I'm wrong - that Kats' sketch and notations were an effort to begin understanding all this. I don't think he meant them to be 'Gospel'.

And I still have trouble believing that the E8726 suffixed covers could have existed - using that E8726 suffix - as long as one full year before the E8725 suffixed ZG type covers first appeared. Anyone care to speculate?

What we need is picture taken at the same angle as the two I copied above - of Alan's lower trim ring in his picture of the pair together.

Er, I'll have to remember where it went first! I've bought and sold quite a few of these things over the time I've been a Z owner. Let me look into it.....

Alan T.

post-2116-14150812938834_thumb.jpg

post-2116-14150812939377_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Perhaps some more grist for the mill:

These images are all dateable, as they are from known sources at known times. First two depict Nissan's first ever S30-series Z race car - specifically a Fairlady Z432-R - just before its first ( and last - as it was T-boned by another car... ) race in January 1970, and the third is a scan from part of the JAF homologation papers for the PS30 Fairlady Z432 - which was dated March 1970, and unusually shows the clear acrylic part attached to the car without the metal trim ring.

I think the screw positions can be seen relatively clearly.

Alan T.

post-2116-14150812940067_thumb.jpg

post-2116-14150812941007_thumb.jpg

post-2116-14150812941859_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ron,

You're confusing me....

That's because I'm confused and I am spreading it around amongst the rest of you.:ermm: Sorry about that, allow me to elaborate and explain what I find confusing and why I described what I see as being a mixed bag.

I said... "Looking at Kats drawing, he depicts the example on the left as being representative of the 3 holed version found on the 432 at the 1969 Tokyo Auto Show. I agree with the notation made on the drawing. It clearly is a prototype version that never went into production." ...meaning ... if what is shown in the drawing is really on the car, it had to be a prototype. I wasn't sure what I was seeing in the photos.

After seeing the latest pictures of the car in post #84, I can see that you are correct in your assessment of the retaining screws you had circled in red. The photos in post #84 trump all the previous examples. Up until now, I just couldn't say for sure...But taking a good look at the photos and trying to guesstimate the distance downwards from the leading edge or corner, those screws appear to be positioned a little lower than an E8726 suffixed version are. Kats shows those holes quite a bit lower.

I think you are correct. Looking at Kats drawing, it doesn't appear he was sure of the hole pattern on this car. My best guess is that Kats prototype label could be correct after all though, even if there are 4 holes and not 3 ...or... it is an E8726 prefixed version that has its image slightly skewed in the photo( without actually having an assigned number at the time). This kind of reminds me of the "early", "later" hubcap discussion, where it turned out there was photographic proof of both versions existing early on but the "later" version did not debute on the production line from the start.

In post #82 the two pics are of E8726 versions. So, those are all stainless?

In post #83 with the photo of the first S30 Series race car, the E4126 version is shown. As well, the scan dated March '70 showing the cover only on the PS30 Fairlady Z432 is the E4126 version. Those are easy for me to identify because I have a set in front of me that I can position the same as in the photos, as a visual aid.

Thank you everyone, for all the photos and allowing us to get a better idea of what was what and what is.

Edited by geezer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And I still have trouble believing that the E8726 suffixed covers could have existed - using that E8726 suffix - as long as one full year before the E8725 suffixed ZG type covers first appeared. Anyone care to speculate?

There were probably storerooms filled to the rafters with parts of every kind that were designed and built in very limited runs, even if never brought on line for production use. I think there is a real possibility of more than one non-finalized version of these headlight covers, sitting on a shelf somewhere, at the time, waiting on a decision from someone, to actually assign a part number and schedule for production. The paper trail or any other evidence supporting that theory is likely long gone though.

Edited by geezer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi all, I don't know much about these but I gathered all the info. and pictures and combined them on one sheet with a info. from which post and who. I did circle the holes where I could see them in black or red. I hope this helps, If I am wrong in places let me know I will fix the picture. This is how I interpreted the info.

Also great info and discussion.

Z-Light%20covers.jpg

Edited by mgood
changed the picture, added title.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Michael, thanks for the photo recap. It is helpful having so many examples gathered in one post along with the information you have included. The only thing that I would change is the title line you have included on the top of the photo of the head on view of the 432 at the '69 Tokyo Show, that Alan attached in post #77. It hasn't been determined if the covers are "Later Part No. 63900-E8726 and 63901-E8726". I am leaning towards them not being that type. For one thing the part number didn't exist at the time. Also, the red circled holes just don't look to be positioned right (too low). The red question marks do represent a few of my other points of uncertainty on that photo as well.

For me, the only uncertainties I have about this entire thread, are the identification of the headlight covers on that 432 on display at the '69 Tokyo show and what to call the two common versions we have referred to as "early", "later".

I think Alan has successfully pointed out that at the time of the '69 Tokyo Show, it is possible that there was another version. At any rate the questions remain. Were they prototypes void of an assigned part number? Were they a stepping stone to the eventually listed E8726 suffixed headlight covers?

Thoughts?

Edit: Michael, perhaps a title for your post will aid in future searches as well.

Edited by geezer
added a suggestion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As all of the '69 Tokyo Show 432 pictures depict the same car , the headlamp covers seen on it cannot be both "prototypes" and E4126 ( or E8726 )....

What I meant but failed to convey properly is that from the view provided in this photo, without any other knowledge of the pictures origin or view provided in other photos, I would be tempted to label it as an E4126 suffixed cover. In this photo, I really couldn't make out a fastening screw where the arrow is indicating one. Not with any certainty. Of course we know better. Sorry for the confusion. Just another example of my fingers moving faster than my thought process.

Edit: Carl noted that the hole seemed to be lower in this photo when he posted it. Dang Carl, how the heck can you see that? Are you getting help from someone?LOL

Edited by geezer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi everyone,

I spread seeds and they have grown up...

I was wondering which is earlier than the other and about 1969 Tokyo motor show, these discussions make me think E4126 is for the one at the right on my poor sketch,and this is earlier than the other.At that time I was not for sure so I wrote "mystery" for the right one.

Thank you geezer and all the members here,I think I become clear:)

I wrote "protype" for the left one in my sketch,I still can not see 4 screws.But I can not say "100% for sure" for it.

Here are some pictures,these examples are the reason why I became to think "....from the biggining...." but, like Alan said many owners might have got the lamp cover at the counter after they have got the car.I can not say

"from the biggining" before I get true answer own myself for each of the car.

The yellow Z432 is still owned by an original owner(he is now 80 yeas old)

and he still drives it!! This car has covers "later" we talked about.This Z432 is really nice and original.

The silver Z432 is MY Z432 when it was in 1970's owned by 1st owner, pictured by a magazine.As we can see it ,at that time my Z432 has covers and "later" ones and still there are trace of screws on the lamp case. When I have my Z432 restored holes were treated for good.

And two Z432-Rs,Mr.Takeuchi's car has later ones,the other Mr.Otsuka's car has early ones.They both owners are not original owners,but they have owned them quite long time.

Mono color shot is from the book "Fairlady-2" , this Z432 is PS30-00021 and this car has later on the right side,early on the left side.From what we have learned,this car could have an accident on the right corner then replaced lamp cover and assorted parts?

kats

post-3193-14150812952055_thumb.jpg

post-3193-14150812952601_thumb.jpg

post-3193-1415081295309_thumb.jpg

post-3193-14150812953527_thumb.jpg

post-3193-1415081295407_thumb.jpg

post-3193-14150812954511_thumb.jpg

post-3193-14150812955071_thumb.jpg

post-3193-14150812955499_thumb.jpg

post-3193-14150812956052_thumb.jpg

Edited by kats

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love early.I have later.

Covers are NOS , but the NOS rings were not good for its shape.I had a set of used covers and rings,I put used covers with NOS not so good rings on yahoo Japan auction.I sold them cheap.

Now I have NOS covers and used very nice shape rings which were re-plated with tripple chrome,they looks very nice than the original.Can you see how the rings are shining?

I think typical problem for later OEM NOS cover set, is the rings are not good shape.The rings do not fit nicely with covers(but better than replica I think).Those covers of cource from Nissan, but looking at them side by side, used old ones are very nice shape while NOS ones are not.

How about E4126 ones in the boxes? Are they good shape?

And the lamp case in the picture is very old, I love its shape.It has sharp edge on the corner.

kats

post-3193-14150812956497_thumb.jpg

post-3193-14150812956925_thumb.jpg

post-3193-14150812957336_thumb.jpg

post-3193-14150812957749_thumb.jpg

post-3193-14150812958172_thumb.jpg

post-3193-14150812958593_thumb.jpg

post-3193-14150812959016_thumb.jpg

post-3193-14150812959437_thumb.jpg

post-3193-14150812960017_thumb.jpg

post-3193-14150812960525_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ron and all, I added some pictures from Kats and add a title to me thread and changed the picture.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So is anyone making reproduction lens. The aftermarkets do not have the right shape and there on the thin side.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I was wondering which is earlier than the other and about 1969 Tokyo motor show, these discussions make me think E4126 is for the one at the right on my poor sketch,and this is earlier than the other.At that time I was not for sure so I wrote "mystery" for the right one.

Hi kats, I thought that perhaps a little explanation would be helpful. I did not see your headlight cover comparison sketch until Esprist posted it to this thread. It is seldom that I miss one of your posts and I was surprised that I had never seen the drawing before. Then I was even more surprized that you had made the "mystery" notation on your drawing, relating to the example on the right. After reading the notation on the example in the center.."from the beginning", I finally realized why Esprist thought of "early", "later" differently, as you were unsure also. It was because of the E8726 suffix versions being common in Japan.

On the other hand, all over the counter sales in North America of headlight covers were the E4126 suffix version. As Mike B pointed out, that is the only version listed in the Competition Parts Catalogs as well as Black Dragon in later years. Every set that I ever seen that came up for sale were the E4126 suffix version.

I noticed the E4126 suffix version listed in the 1970 Nissan FairladyZ Parts Catalog long ago, but never gave it much thought until this thread was started and what I considered "early & later" were reversed.

Here is a scan of the last 2 pages of that parts catalog. The headlight covers are listed last under the heading of Option Parts. The english translations were written in by the original owner in 1970. I never did the math but it seems that these were high priced items, even back in 1970. Converted to todays pricing I bet $1200.00 US for a set isn't too far off in comparison. Notice the 16000 yen "each" price that has been written in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I spread seeds and they have grown up...

They grew into a forest, Kats...!

OK, this subject has been bugging me more than a little - so I started to dig a bit deeper to see if I could come up with a different part number. I felt sure that somewhere I had seen an early part number reference for the covers, but I couldn't remember just where. After what seemed like an age of fruitless searching - with paperwork and reference material spread all over the floor and shelves ( what a mess ) - I sat back down again at my desk and looked straight at the front cover of the Nissan competition prep manual for the Fairlady Z 432-R. This is one of the first places I should have looked. I'd had it on the desk for the last couple of weeks, as I had needed some data for my 432-R replica project car. I couldn't see the forest for the trees....

Turn to pages 71 & 72 and there it is, a pair of new part numbers ( well, new to this thread at least I think ) and a reference to FOUR screws on each cover. The manual is dated February 1970.

So, we now have:

63900-E4100 SET HEAD LAMP COVER RH

63901-E4100 SET HEAD LAMP COVER LH

and also:

63920-E4100 PLATE NUT ( qty. 8 )

...however, there's no firm reference to the pattern / positioning of the mounting screws in this manual. You win some, you lose some.

My 'translation' is marked in red:

Alan T.

post-2116-14150812994976_thumb.jpg

post-2116-14150812995423_thumb.jpg

Edited by HS30-H

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:beer:Incredible! That is some good digging right there!:beer:

Can we assume these are the "real early" version? Even if we don't yet have a better example of the mounting hole pattern, we at least know this version had 4 holes per side.

Good find Alan!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cheers Ron. :)

Seems likely that the E4100 number might be the number given to the earliest full 'production' version, as opposed to prototypes and/or anything not finally settled, as this booklet was dated February 1970 and must have been in preparation during late 1969 at least.

However, I can't help thinking that some earlier versions with different mounting screw layouts might have made it onto production cars that were made in late 1969 / early 1970.....

Alan T.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The english translations were written in by the original owner in 1970. I never did the math but it seems that these were high priced items, even back in 1970. Converted to todays pricing I bet $1200.00 US for a set isn't too far off in comparison. Notice the 16000 yen "each" price that has been written in.

The Yen to US Dollar rate at that time was 360 to 1. So 16,000 Yen works out to about $44.45 which seems like a bargain even 40 years ago.

Dennis

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
They grew into a forest, Kats...!

OK, this subject has been bugging me more than a little - so I started to dig a bit deeper to see if I could come up with a different part number. I felt sure that somewhere I had seen an early part number reference for the covers, but I couldn't remember just where. After what seemed like an age of fruitless searching - with paperwork and reference material spread all over the floor and shelves ( what a mess ) - I sat back down again at my desk and looked straight at the front cover of the Nissan competition prep manual for the Fairlady Z 432-R. This is one of the first places I should have looked. I'd had it on the desk for the last couple of weeks, as I had needed some data for my 432-R replica project car. I couldn't see the forest for the trees....

Turn to pages 71 & 72 and there it is, a pair of new part numbers ( well, new to this thread at least I think ) and a reference to FOUR screws on each cover. The manual is dated February 1970.

So, we now have:

63900-E4100 SET HEAD LAMP COVER RH

63901-E4100 SET HEAD LAMP COVER LH

and also:

63920-E4100 PLATE NUT ( qty. 8 )

...however, there's no firm reference to the pattern / positioning of the mounting screws in this manual. You win some, you lose some.

My 'translation' is marked in red:

Alan T.

Alan I found in my little yellowbook ( same asyou have )

A period written note with 3 ?? different part nr from the headlamp covers

63901/63900-E4100

63901/63900-E4126

63901/63900-E8725

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The Yen to US Dollar rate at that time was 360 to 1. So 16,000 Yen works out to about $44.45 which seems like a bargain even 40 years ago.

Dennis

Thanks Dennis. I was way off, but 16,000 yen was for 1 side only. Since the set price was 23,000 yen, that would have converted to just under $64. a set, keeping in mind that was the over the counter price if bought in Japan in 1970. That still seems like a bargain. Wonder what the price was in the US at the time? It is a bit difficult for me to compare buying power today, being retired almost 10 years. I am relating somewhat to my earnings in 1970, which was around $95. a week before taxes were deducted. Since they have been out of production for many years and they are such a desirable item, what someone is willing to pay has risen substantially, but there are deals to be had also, as pointed out in Mike B's recent Ebay auction link earlier in this thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.