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HS30-H

24th October 1969 - The S30-series Z public debut.

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I have never seen this flyer until Alan showed us,also never seen in auctions.Just great:love:

Thank you Alan,you have lots of rare items which even people in Japan never be able to have them.

Thank you for your kind words, Kats.

I think there are lots of things that I have not even seen yet, so I will keep searching. I will keep going with this thread too. I want to follow up by giving some context - showing some of the other cars that were on the Nissan stand at the show, and the enormous amount of press coverage that the S30-series Z generated in Japan in the weeks after its release. Some of the road tests for example are amazingly thorough. My scanner will be working hard.

Alan,

I just got the link to the New York Times article to work and as I read, I think the October 22nd link you are looking for would be found from this document; ...Nissan division in North America, in a news release. “The Z is just such a vehicle.” Interesting what we might find NNA saying.

Thanks for that Chris, but I'm not sure I follow? What actually happened on 22nd October? Did somebody open an envelope...... ?

Seriously - if there was some kind of event or happening in the USA on October 22nd, then what was it? I'd really like to get to the bottom of it once and for all. I see October 22nd listed in a 'Time Line' on zhome.com ( it reads kind of like: "Genesis - world created, Adam & Eve arrive in Garden of Eden. Oct.22nd 1969, Z goes on sale in USA" ) but I honestly have no idea what actually took place on that day.

Alan T.

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That article repeats the statement that "The Datsun 240Z first went on sale in the United States on October 22nd 1969...."

Can anybody actually substantiate this? Where did it go "on sale" ( a show, a dealership? ) and how? I don't think there could have been any specific cars "on sale" in the USA at that point, let alone a 100% fixed specification and - therefore - a price that reflected exactly what the customer would get. Somebody may have put a deposit down, given a verbal or written 'order' ( how? ) against a flyer, but I think it's a long way from a model physically going "on sale".

Has anybody got any evidence that might back this claim up?

Hi Alan:

First - thanks for the Post - very interesting subject.

To your question above - I doubt anyone can provide evidence at this point. I don't find anything that states that the 240Z "went on sale". Many of the articles from that period say to expect to see the cars at the Dealerships after the first of the year.

The Article in the New York Times published the 23rd of Oct. 1969 reporting on the event held the 22 Of Oct. 69 in New York city - said in part.

-- - Quoted in part - as fair use - to comment on a recent N.Y.Times article - - -

- Datsun Enters the Middle-Priced Sports Car Market -

The Nissan Motor Company Ltd., which has built it reputation on economy cars, is making a determined bid for the middle-priced sports car market.

The company showed its Datsun 240Z sports car at its international preview yesterday at the Pierre Hotel. The car is expected to be competitive with Detroit-built sports-type of cars and European sports cars.

It will sell here for $3,500.00 and includes such features as independent rear suspension, front disk brakes, overhead cam engine and flow-though fresh air ventilation.

The company designated its newest entry as "an all new, personalized, two-passenger fastback" and said it was Datsun's answer to the high-performance personal car market.

- - end quote - - - --

FWIW,

Carl B.

Edited by Carl Beck

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Ron,

Most of those guys seem to be thinking that they'll never be able to afford one....!

QUOTE]

Superb pictures - really superb.

Re. the cost at new , how much was the 240 in japan at launch and how would that compare to the 'average' wage/earnings?

(sorry if thats been asked before but having stood at car shows staring longingly at dreams I can't afford, I really feel for the guys in those pics!)

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Re. the cost at new , how much was the 240 in japan at launch and how would that compare to the 'average' wage/earnings?

'240Z' model price was not mentioned at the show, because it was not officially sold in Japan - although it could be bought through Nissan's Diplomatic & Export Sales office in Tokyo.

Initial ( basic ) prices were quoted at the show as follows:

S30-S 'Fairlady Z' standard model = 930,000 JPY

S30 'Fairlady Z-L' deluxe model = 1,080,000 JPY

PS30 'Fairlady Z432' model = 1,850,00 JPY

Hard to put this into context with average earnings in Japan at the time ( depends what figure you use, and it's quite subjective in relation to living standards ) but perhaps some comparisons with other Nissan products on the stand at the same show might help? For example:

GC10 'Skyline 2000GT' sporty 4-door sedan = 860,000 JPY

510 'Bluebird 1600 DX' 4-door = 654,000 JPY

510 'Bluebird 1600 SSS' 2 door = 768,500 JPY

B110 'Sunny DX' 4-door = 415,000 JPY

The cheapest 'Fairlady Z' model might have been within reach price-wise, but I believe the young family man would feel pressured to go for something a bit more practical ( esp. with 4 seats ). The 432 was twice the price of the Z-Std........

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To your question above - I doubt anyone can provide evidence at this point. I don't find anything that states that the 240Z "went on sale". Many of the articles from that period say to expect to see the cars at the Dealerships after the first of the year.

Carl,

Thanks for that. But your own 'History Time Line' on zhome.com states that "The 240-Z goes on sale in the U.S. on October 22, 1969." That date can only relate to the 'event' at the Pierre Hotel in New York, surely?

Did they actually have a car present? If so, what car was it ( was it one of the 'Kaku-U' North American Test cars? )? Who was present? Were the general public invited? Has anybody ever seen any photos of the event? I know I haven't.

The whole thing sounds rather low key to me, and certainly at odds with the 'Made for the USA' fanfares that would follow the HLS30U's press in the USA. With Nissan's Japan press preview having taken place in Ginza on 18th October, and the Tokyo Auto Show opening its doors on 24th October, I think the date of 22nd October is very interesting too. It makes me wonder whether Katayama felt his thunder was being stolen somewhat, and made some hasty arrangements.... ?

Here's a picture that was credited with being taken at the 1970 'New York Automobile Show'. Our old 'friend' Albrecht Goertz is notable in his presence next to the car ( like it's any of his business ) and present too was Larry Shinoda of GM. What was the actual date of the 1970 NY show? Did it actually take place in 1969, or early in 1970? Try as I might, I can't find much mention of it.

Alan T.

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Hello AD240Z,

That is a good question for me,I can say how it was a difficult to buy a car for young people in Japan at the time.

I was born in june 1969,not wealthy at all but ordinary family.My family did not have a car before I was born.The first car was a small Mitsubishi 4 door sedan"Galant".

For my family,and for most of the people in japan,the word for S30 debut "Dreams come true" did not have reality for those people.

I have heard avarage earnings of people who graduated university was aprox.20000 yen per month, so Fairlady Z-L was almost 50 times more.These days in Japan,people could not have loan easily like today.

Now in Japan, in that case 200000 yen per month, 50 times more is 10000000yen,like buying a Porche,NISSAN GTR etc.Or two Z34! But I do not think there are many young people willing to pay such a big money on a car.

When I was 6 years old,my father got NISSAN Laurel.People in the U.S. have never seen this car I think,it has got 6 cylinders L20 engine.

I am happy I have same L- series like my father used to.

Edited by kats

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Hi Kats

Wonderful response - that satisfies my curiosity.

Assuming Alan missed a zero off "The PS30 'Fairlady Z432' model = 1,850,000 JPY"

That was a very expensive vehicle - Over 90 x the (approximate average) monthly wage!!

What is the equivalent of that today?

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Carl,

Thanks for that. But your own 'History Time Line' on zhome.com states that "The 240-Z goes on sale in the U.S. on October 22, 1969." That date can only relate to the 'event' at the Pierre Hotel in New York, surely?

Hi Alan:

Actually - that time line came from Nissan originally, and I edited some of the later data listed. Nissan had it at one time on their web site - of course all the Nissan web sites have been changed over time. I did not put the "goes on sale" there, that was indeed Nissan's term.

Did they actually have a car present? If so, what car was it ( was it one of the 'Kaku-U' North American Test cars? )? Who was present? Were the general public invited? Has anybody ever seen any photos of the event? I know I haven't.

To answer some of the questions about the event - I have written a couple of friends that may have attended, so I'll wait to see what their reply looks like.

I will say that at the time - Mr. Goertz was still in good standing with Nissan. Mr. Goertz was a friend of both Bob Sharp and Mr. Kawazoe - so it would not surprise me to see him present.

One thing I have ran into is the lose use of terms in lue of proper names ie. "The New York International Auto Show", "The New York Auto Show" and the "New York Show"...makes it hard to determin which show is being discussed.

As I understand it - the "New York Auto Show" features all the new models for sale, and is promoted by the Auto Dealers Association, whereas the "New York International Auto Show" is the event for the Manufacturers, and their displays move from major city to major city around the country.

I looked it up once, not too long ago - but as I recall the "New York International Auto Show" was held in Jan.

I'll get back on this when I hear back from a few friends. Who knows perhaps they can shed some light and/or dig out some old photo's.

FWIW,

Carl B.

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The New York Auto Show officially changed its name to the New York International Auto Show in 1956. Normally held in late March / Early April, I beleive these are the pictures mentioned.

Alan, you asked if the October car was one of the North American test cars. Going back to Kats' thread, I see that the crew did fly to the East coast and visited the Conel Laboratories, but that seems to have happened in November 1969. In terms of the cars, the record indicates that the cars were on the New Orleans run in October of 1969.

post-4148-1415080876251_thumb.jpg

Edited by 26th-Z

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Here's a picture that was credited with being taken at the 1970 'New York Automobile Show'. Our old 'friend' Albrecht Goertz is notable in his presence next to the car ( like it's any of his business ) and present too was Larry Shinoda of GM.

Hi Alan:

If the picture you are talking about is the one the Chris Posted - Yes, that was taken at the New York International Auto Show.

The man standing beside Mr. Goertz is Bob Sharp. Mr. Kawazoe let Mr. Goertz put the Goertz Logo on one side of the car. At the time, Sharp and Kawazoe were convinced that Goertz was behind the design.

After all these years and research - I believe that Mr. Goertz did believe that the Datsun 240Z was the direct evolution of his work. Given his massive ego, I don't see how he could have believed otherwise.

Given the Nissan Logo on the hood, of the final evolution at Yamaha's Design Center, of what Goertz claimed was his work - I can at least see the basis for Mr. Goertz belief.

I hasten to add for everyone - the final Goertz/Yamaha Prototype stayed at Yamaha, as Nissan had only contracted for Yamaha to build one working prototype - which was delivered to Nissan after the Joint Project was cancelled. That first iteration of the Nissan 2000GT, looked quite different.

I reversed the image of the HLS30 in the picture below - to put it in the same orientation as the Yamaha prototype.

FWIW,

Carl B.

post-3609-14150808770543_thumb.jpg

Edited by Carl Beck
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Does anyone have translations for the options list on the Fairlady Z flier provided by Alan in Post 13? Or perhaps you have it, Alan?

I'm in the process of restoring a 1970 Fairlady Z-L, and I've just discovered this very handy list above, which will help me figure out what should be on the car, and what may be missing. From what I've deduced so far, "/\" is optional, "O" is standard, and "--" is N/A.

From what I've gathered so far:

First Column:

Option 1: 5 Speed gearbox

Option 2: Bigger Tire?

Option 3: A/C

Option 4: ?

Option 5:?

Option 6:?

Option 7: Rally Clock?

Option 8: Clock?

Option 9: Reclining Seats

Option 10: _____ lights

Option 11:

Second Column:

Option 1:

Option 2:

Option 3:

Option 4:

Option 5:

Option 6: __________ Glass (Defroster?)

Option 7:

Option 8:

Option 9:

Option 10: Footrest ____

Option 11:

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Carl,

I am a little bit confused....

The first statement (taken from "who designed the S30" thread-post 61) of yours corresponds to the first photo, the second statement and photo from a few posts above on this post.

I think it is now quite clear that Mr. Goertz had nothing what so ever to do with the A550-X - and that the metal prototype {pictured below} represents the Nissan 2000GT - built by Yamaha for Nissan, and which was delivered to Nissan - does in fact represent the extent of Mr. Goertz involvement. [the first photo]

FWIW,

Carl B.

hasten to add for everyone - the final Goertz/Yamaha Prototype stayed at Yamaha, as Nissan had only contracted for Yamaha to build one working prototype - which was delivered to Nissan after the Joint Project was cancelled. That first iteration of the Nissan 2000GT, looked quite different.

FWIW,

Carl B.

You can't give Goertz credit for helping on only one car (and only assisting) for then to say the second ("later/final") car is a joint Geortz/Yamaha collaboration. The whole project was a joint Nissan/Yamaha collaboration, with Japanese employee's of both companies first and foremost, with Goertz a minor player (given his limited time under a Nissan contract as a advisor). And on your Zhome page, you show the second car saying that it is a Yamaha A550X (using Shin Yoshikawa's book as the source).

post-6856-14150816076472_thumb.jpg

post-6856-14150816076777_thumb.jpg

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Hi RIP260Z:

I'm sure you have very valid points there.

This discussion thread was started two years ago - and long before that and since that - we've had many very involved discussions on the subject of Mr. Goertz's involvement or influence. For that matter the involvement or influence of others as well.

I have to say that over the years - as Kats has brought ever more inside information, gathered from ever more sources present on the design teams... it has been ever more difficult to capture more than just the essence of the story - in any way that isn't subject to refute by someone.

My mind has changed back and forth on several specifics - - and I'll take a look at the article you reference on the Z Car Home page - perhaps it's time to simply delete any mention of Goertz.

As for past discussion - they are just that - past discussions - and yes there are lots of conflicting thoughts and opinions from year to year.

FWIW,

Carl B.

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How come we didn't get that bad arse DOHC motor?

Displayed on a rotating circular platform right outside Nissan's main booth, an orange PS30 'Fairlady Z432' attracted a lot of attention, and certainly had the wow factor:

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FYI It looks like there was also a 432-R at the Tokyo International Motor Show:

The Blue 240z seems to have been replaced at some point by the 432R. A few other items were also added to the display.

69-Tokyo-Motor-Show-HLS30.jpgTokyo 1969 1b.jpg

#21 & 432R.jpg

Edited by 240260280
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2 hours ago, HS30-H said:

So here we are, 24th October 2018 and the 49th anniversary of the doors opening to the general public at the 1969 Tokyo Motor Show - the official public debut of Nissan's S30-series Z car range.

Here's looking forward to the Big 50...

Alan - many thanks for reviving this post.  Fantastic reading.

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Curious in this advert, the one car has no paint protector on the bumper and no bumper rubber whatsoever?  Vs the 432 has it?  Also notice the holes for the bumperettes, but no bumperettes?

Interesting to not see the paint bumper protector in so many restorations? 

Z.PNG

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I think the cars in these photos from Alan & or Kats posed for that brochure ?

They are from ~ Oct. 18, 1969 when, at the same time, two silver Z's were tearing up the USA and Canadian highways.

@kats @HS30-H

post-2116-14150793062752.jpgpost-2116-14150793062967.jpg

 

 

13.jpg

Edited by 240260280
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58 minutes ago, JSM said:

Curious in this advert, the one car has no paint protector on the bumper and no bumper rubber whatsoever?  Vs the 432 has it?  Also notice the holes for the bumperettes, but no bumperettes?

Interesting to not see the paint bumper protector in so many restorations? 

Z.PNG

Japanese market models, at launch:
S30-S 'Fairlady Z-S'/'Z-S'/'Z-standard' = 'Standard', no frills model. No bumper rubber trims.
PS30-SB 'Fairlady Z432-R'/'PZR' = Super lightweight race homologation model. No bumper rubber trims.
S30 'Fairlady Z-L'/'Z-DX' = 'Deluxe' model. Comes with bumper rubber trims.
PS30 Fairlady Z432/'PZ' = 'Deluxe' version of 432. Comes with bumper rubber trims.

So what you are seeing is one of the visible external differences between 'Standard' models and 'Deluxe' models. There were many other differences too.

All Japanese models had the extra cost showroom option of bumper overiders, hence the presence of mounting holes in the bumper with black plastic grommets to fill them when not used.
 

 

 

 

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55 minutes ago, 240260280 said:

I think the cars in these photos from Alan & or Kats posed for that brochure ?

They are from ~ Oct. 18, 1969 when, at the same time, two silver Z's were tearing up the USA and Canadian highways.

@kats @HS30-H

post-2116-14150793062967.jpg

 

I believe this photo was taken at the Nissan press writers test driving event - where various members of the Japanese automotive press actually got their first drives in the various new S30-series models - held on November 5th 1969, and over the following days.

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