Scarab on eBay?

[nwa240z]

The question is, "was it ever a Scarab?".

The blue Z on E-bay is presented as being a two owner car - were you the first or second owner? I'm wondering why you believe it is a Scarab - when so many things say it is not.

FWIW,

Carl B.

Carl,

I was not the first or second owner of the blue car. I am the third owner of #154. I do not have the original paperwork for the car however the second owner lives down the street from me, brought the car to Arkansas from California. He bought the car from the original owner after it was stored for several years.

The blue 153, was it an original Scarab? Well according to Craig Sparks who is the most knowledgeable resource that I know of on the Scarab cars says yes. Then WHY are there 2 cars #153? That is the question. Craig has always told me there were 2 cars with the number 153, I’ve know this all along.

What says it IS a Scarab.

Let’s dissect the car on eBay.

Exterior

Louvered hood and inspection lids

BBS 3 piece wheels

Correct mirrors

Blacked out trim

Scarab emblems on sail panel (only available from the factory)

3 piece rear spoiler

Scarab lettering on lower fenders and rear spoiler

Interior

Recaro seats

Tuck and roll door panels

Momo steering wheel

EGT/Boost gauge

Glove box door emblem

Door jamb data plate

I’d love to see under the carpet because Scarab put a LOT of sound deadening in their cars.

Now an important piece if you look at the under car pics, the one labeled FLOORS, look at the rear differential, there a piece of C shaped metal holding the differential nose down. Now if this is a “knock off” car, somebody went to great lengths to duplicate a factory car but screwed up when they gave it SN 153.

I’m sticking by my guns on this one calling it real, as does Craig, he has educated me on these cars quite a bit. How knowledgeable is Craig? Last month my clutch slave went out, I called and asked him what part I needed. He spouts off “The slave you need is for a 1974 Datsun B210 with a 4 speed, don’t get the one for an automatic because the bleeder is on the bottom you need the one from a 4 speed.” I was impressed.

[Mike]

My car came with blacked out window moldings, I don't know what mirror emblems your refering to however those are the correct mirrors for a Scarab (my car does not have these) BBS wheels where original equipment from Scarab, guages(?) it does have the original SCARAB logo on the turbo guage so it's a Scarab part, mesh head rests are attached to RECARO seats, that's the way they came back in the day. Dents in the rocker panels, I'm guessing he ment "frame rails" which typically get dented from jacking up the car.

I know you've done your home work on these cars before!!!

That's a very nice car you have. I really enjoy the Scarab and would love to get my hands on one in the near future. I'm not doubting the homework you've done or any kind of work ANYONE has done on this car.

A lot of parts on that car look like aftermarket to me -- too shiny and modern. I shouldn't have made the points that I did because it would be almost impossible to keep original parts from either breaking or stolen, if the car was actually driven. There are plenty of Classic Z's (including mine) with shiny new aftermarket parts...

Do you (or anyone) have a list of modifications that were made by Scarab during their production of these cars? I've created a forum just for the Scarab on this club because I believe it is part of the Classic Z era and deserves to be discussed and written about. For that matter, does anyone know if there are living alumni of the Scarab company?

The car on eBay is a nice car. But if it doesn't have paperwork and the serial number is not accurate.... it wouldn't justify the extra $5k.

BTW: Who's Craig?

[nwa240z]

I used your reseach coupled with Craig Sparks knowledge, old company brochures and magazine articles (from the 80's) to make my case on these cars. If it's Scarab related, Craig and I try to aquire it.

I've scored him an original set of FIA calipers for his car and sourced him rebuid kits for the calipers too. He's sent me company litarature and an additonal set of Scarab lettering he had custom made from the original pieces. We work together, I've tracked down a few cars then hand off the info to him. He attempts contact with the owners and adds them to the Scarab registry.

Go to zhome.com and on the left side menu additional Scarab information can be found.

Edited August 14, 2008 by nwa240z

[Mike]

Just read the Ebay ad again. The story sounds made up to me. This guy knows too many details about things that happened a long time ago. The first part of his story is something I didn't know:

This 1976 Datsun 280Z was purchased by its original owner in 1978 with the sole intention of converting the vehicle into a factory produced, authentic Scarab.

Did Scarab allow people to bring their cars in, from off the street, for modification? If so, perhaps there was a screw up in the serial numbering process and this car was given the same serial number as a production car? Or maybe there was a whole different set of serial numbers given to personally modified cars rather than production cars ?

I know the car had a new engine, but, why wouldn't the guy keep the valve covers that say Scarab? I'm sure those are hard to find today ..

We work together, I've tracked down a few cars then hand off the info to him. He attempts contact with the owners and adds them to the Scarab registry.

Scarab registry? Where's that ?

[Mike]

Do you (or anyone) have a list of modifications that were made by Scarab during their production of these cars?

I forgot that I did some research on this topic a few years ago. The age must be kicking in. Here's a list of the modifications that Scarab did:

http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31570

Mike

[nwa240z]

Just read the Ebay ad again. The story sounds made up to me. This guy knows too many details about things that happened a long time ago. The first part of his story is something I didn't know:

Did Scarab allow people to bring their cars in, from off the street, for modification? If so, perhaps there was a screw up in the serial numbering process and this car was given the same serial number as a production car? Or maybe there was a whole different set of serial numbers given to personally modified cars rather than production cars ?

I know the car had a new engine, but, why wouldn't the guy keep the valve covers that say Scarab? I'm sure those are hard to find today ..

Scarab registry? Where's that ?

Yes Scarab allowed you to bring in your car and have it modified by them, mine was owned by a dentist in CA, he brought it in to have the conversion done. Valve covers are very rare indeed, but the Scarab valve covers don't clear modern valve trains, i.e. bigger roller rockers, trust me I tried as did the former owner of my valve covers. The valve covers he has on the car look exactally like the ones that came with my car when I bought it, they're HEAVY guage aluminum to dampen noise, Scarab may have used those (or just a coincidence that we have the same covers???) on the higher performance engines or if they were out of stock on the Scarab/Edelbrock covers.

Scarab registry is not on line, Craig Sparks keeps track of the cars as they surface, plus you gotta know the secret hand shake, just kidding.

BTW my car is a 71Z HLS3012297

Here is a pic of the covers my car came with:

Edited August 14, 2008 by nwa240z

[scarab153]

Hi guys,

I have been out of town for a few days. I am going to have to agree with nwa240z. The seller of the Scarab on ebay (not the owner, it is on consignment), replied to my email. He put me in contact with Craig Sparkes. I was also able to reach the original owner of my Scarab. There was a mix-up at the factory. My car was originally supposed to be a dark blue metallic. When the first owner went to pick it up it was painted a light blue. The same color that was originally on the Scarab for sale on ebay. It appears that Brian Morrow was not particularly careful with his paperwork. Between the discussions I've had with the original owner of my car, and the research done by Craig Sparkes, I am convinced of the authenticity of the Scarab for sale on ebay.

[Carl Beck]

Carl,

I was not the first or second owner of the blue car. I am the third owner of #154. I do not have the original paperwork for the car however the second owner lives down the street from me, brought the car to Arkansas from California. He bought the car from the original owner after it was stored for several years.

Hi nwa240z:

Thanks for your reply. You have a pretty original car and so far no other has turned up with the same Series Number. So you are most likely in pretty good shape. Likewise "scarab153" plus he has some documentation to accompany his.

I'll state right up front that I'm no expert on the Scarab's - indeed I have only a very limited knowledge of the cars. I applaud Mike's efforts to gather together as much information as possible and make it publicly available here. Thanks to you and scarab153 for contributing to that knowledge base in this thread.

It is a shame that an effort to publicly document and register these cars wasn't started years ago. It would have been of benefit to all owners, as well as sellers and buyers alike.

If you and Craig believe that there were two cars given the same series number by Brian, and you believe that the car on e-bay really was produced/modified by Scarab, then that's the best information you can provide to a prospective buyer. I do believe that it should be preceded by "In My Opinion" or "Based On My Research I Believe...".

The main reason for public discussion on this forum, is for the benefit of prospective buyers. The Pro's and Con's of any car are usually fully discussed - and the prospective buyers, if they are here, can make their own decisions.

My opinions are simply based on 40+ years in the Classic, Collectable and Special Interest markets. If I wanted a Scarab, I'd want it as original as possible and with as much documented history as possible. {Tigers, Corsa's, Pontiac GTO's, Fuelie Corvettes, LS-6 Chevells you name it and you'll find plenty of fakes in the market}.

Buyer Beware - anyone that wants a real "whatever" - I believe is best advised to buy "whatever" when it is fully correct, with a documented history. Lacking that, the closer one can get to that standard the better the bet with one's money.

Personally if i wanted a Scarab, I'd keep looking for one, I can't see getting involved with any car with a controversial background nor one that has been so extensively modified to begin with.

As you said - we'll have to let the market determine what that specific car is worth. I would hate to see it set the benchmark for the value of Scarab's.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[DeesZ]

Scarab # 153 (one of them) returns for sale on ebay. Those of you that were interested in what price it would fetch may want to watch this listing.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Datsun-Z-Series-1-OF-18-1976-DATSUN-Z-ORIGINAL-CALIFORNIA-SCARAB-CAR-153_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6187QQihZ011QQitemZ320289803441QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Here's the link to the prior listing if needed

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Datsun-Z-Series-1-OF-18-1976-DATSUN-Z-ORIGINAL-CALIFORNIA-SCARAB-CAR-153_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6187QQihZ012QQitemZ220267073326QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Edited August 31, 2008 by DeesZ
add URL

[Carl Beck]

Interesting:

In the first listing they state that there are 18 original Scarab's accounted for - yet they list only 16 (12 with door tags and 4 without). What happened to the other two?

In the first listing, in the Q&A section - they acknowledge the fact that the Red #153 exists - and provide an explanation for why two would have the same Scarab series number. Yet this time they fail to mention that fact - again. Either they don't believe the story, or they don't want potential buyers to know about it..

I wouldn't be too happy if I found that out after I bought the car... because with any controversy like that - I wouldn't have bought the car to begin with. Might be part of the reason that the actual owner doesn't want to represent nor sell the car himself, and is hiding behind a professional dealer.

On top of all that - personally I wouldn't buy a car from a used car dealer in a private auction anyway.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[DeesZ]

Auction ended with a Buy-it-Now.... $19,310.

[Mike B]

There is another car that claims to be an original Scarab on ebay now http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Datsun-Z-Series-280Z-Scarab-VERY-RARE-SCARAB-CONVERSION-LOTS-PAPERWORK-L79-V8-/280642853776?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item41579e1b90. However, it doesn't look like the car has the Scarab door ID plate under the factory VIN plate, like Scarab #154 does in the pictures shown in this thread. Also, the seller says it is Scarab #1430. How can that be, if #154 was converted by Scarab June 1979 and production ended soon after that? I thought they only made a couple hundred of them anyway? I wonder if it is actually Scarab #143, or if it just has some of the Scarab parts added to another V8 conversion?

-Mike