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ToXIc

restoration costs?

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On my previous car, a 1960 MGA, I rebuilt / restored "everything" myself, including the interior, engine, transmission & brake system. The only thing I didn't do was body paint. I did strip the entire car down to bare metal and painted all the smaller components. There was a tremenduos sense of accomplishment associated with that project. That's why I had the car for 17 years.

I am enjoying working on my 240Z am looking forward to driving the completed project. Doing it yourself is the best way to really get to "know" the car.

The parts I'm not doing myself on the Z are the engine, seat upholstery & paint. Those are things, (paint & sewing), I'm not as good at and will get a better result by giving it to the pros. While I've rebuilt several engines, having someone else do the work fits my timeline. I want to be driving the car by mid-September. Of course, I'm saving money by doing a lot of the prep work...

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Hey, these are really inspirational stories guys. I don't care if its -12c in my garage, tonight my son and I are putting on our snow pants and mittens and were gonna make some hot chocolate and work on some Z-parts.

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Another thought along the same lines:

Anyone with enough money can buy a car...sports, classic, rare, exotic, all it takes is money. That's what the jet-set does, but then again, they don't have the time to take on a long project. To them the trip is about the destination. If that's what you're into, buy the best car that someone else has worked on.

But don't expect to be seen in the same light as those that have skinned their knuckles, shed a drop or two of blood, sweat and tears, or spent weeks or months looking for that specific part... trying to bring their "baby" back onto the road. To those that have travelled this other path, it's not about the money, and while the destination has always been in mind, it's the journey there that's part of the trip. Once you're there, you're filled with memories of the journey itself and you share them with others also along their paths. Money can't buy those memories, nor the friendships, nor the satisfaction. It's not about the money, it's about the process.

FWIW

E

Sorry E - but I have to protest, or disagree, or make the counter points...

I believe that is a grossly unfair misrepresentation, where you infer that serious Classic Car Collectors, Serious Z Car Enthusiasts are "jet setters" just because they buy the cars they love rather than build them themselves.

I really disagree with the perspective that if you didn't do it yourself, it somehow has less meaning, worth or value; than the meaning, worth, or value put into finding and buying the Classic Car of your dreams.

No question that there is indeed a specific group of people that enjoy buying expensive toys for themselves. Their motives may be to impress their friends, or simply to wizz off the poor people that envy them. Yes that group exists - but so far they aren't buying Datsun 240-Z's!!

No question that there is another specific group of people - that through their hard work have put themselves in a position to be able to finally buy the cars of their youthful dreams - but do we really want to look down our noses at them - for writing a rather large check for a near perfect 240-Z? They are the very people that provide the rational, or belief that most of us hold on to - while we are writing a seemingly endless number of smaller checks, with bleeding knuckles and shaking hands.

Would any of us put $25K+ into "refreshing" a 240-Z without any hope that if we had to sell it at some point in the future - there might be a buyer that could write a check for at least $18K for that #3 condition 240-Z????

You seem to hold the impression that the serious Collector, or Enthusiast is a gadfly, just writing checks along the way to his destination. What you fail to comprehend is that buying the 240Z they wanted, is really a significant milestone on their journey. Make no mistake, they are enjoying their journey just as much as any of us.

If anything, I'm really thankful that "those people" are there, that they want to join us in our affection for for our Z's.

The bottom line is - NO you don't have to do it yourself to fully appreciate fine craftsmanship, love a classic car, nor be a Z Car Enthusiast. It is perfectly acceptable at least to me - to send a car out for restoration or write a big check for one that's already done. If owning a "new" 240-Z enhances your journey - .... Me and Mr. K will be there smiling and waving as you pass by.... after all none of us built the car to begin with... and there is no need for us to do it ourselves today.

FWIW,

Carl B.

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Carl,

I really don't think anyone here is denagrating those who buy an already restored car. Heck, for what I'm investing, given 12 months, I could have eventually found a fully restored Z! (Though perhaps not in my choice of color).

I think what some of us, (or at least just me), are saying is that we gain a strong sense of accomplishment and take pride in our doing much of the work ourselves. From reading your posts, I think you probably fall into this group as well.

FWIW, it would be nice if I could afford to just go out and buy a perfectly restored Ferrari 246 Dino, (I can't), nor can I justify spending $60K to have my Z restored.

However, I don't envy those who can. In my experience, the few "wealthy" people I've met got there by working extremely hard and making personal sacrifices I was unwilling to make. Like you, I appreciate anyone who loves and maintains these wonderful older sports cars.

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The bodywork and repaint on this 1971 FairladyZ-L just completed cost $6k.

The job is "okay", not #1 show winner quality, but for a summer driver people say it is good.

Comp work would be about $10,000.

Another $2k in badges, parts, etc., etc.

Altogether, with the cost of the car, we have over 30 years about $22,000 invested.

Barrett-Jackson Auction thinks it would bring about $34k in their auction for a collector, as it is "close".

Mind you, no engine, tranny, or pumpkin work was involved. 76k miles on the car and the mechanicals have a long way to go.

I've spent a month, 1-2 hours a day, hand-cutting the final clearcoat to remove swirls.

Last car I'm "refreshing" ... :-)

Bottom line: would I do it to this car again? In a New York Minute.

Am I gonna sell the car? My widow can sell it ....

post-4680-14150802416024_thumb.jpg

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Carl;

"Me thinks the lady doth protest too much."

I can understand your umbrage at what I wrote. But then again, you understood our point of view when the likes of McKrack pontificated their point of view to the rest of us. Would you equate McKrack's efforts to the rest of ours?

That places you directly on the fence between those who can simply write a check, and those who must ponder, weigh, and debate each and every expenditure in the process of working on their car.

While there are items that I've not hesitated to have them done by a profesional or to purchase outright, there are far more things that I've done myself and refurbished rather than replace due to the $ involved. To the individual with disposeable income, such deliberation is unheard of. Then again, I've been the one to purchase THEIR discards. So it all works out.

But, when I find myself at a car show, and I run into one of those individuals discussing their restoration....can you understand my disdain?

Then again, there ARE individuals with both the ability to work on AND the money to have it worked on. They can choose what and if they wish to expend their energy on. Some of these individuals can be the best sources of information, knowledge and experience. I cannot say I've never met a jacka$$ amongst these owners, but it's rare to find one here than amongst those that strictly pay for things and still insist on taking the credit for having done the work....when they've simply bought others efforts.

However, when it comes to coming over to your place and pitching in and helping you effect the same work on your car...I'll take the guy I'm referring to. He's willing to go to the boneyard with or without you, and if he should find a piece there when he's alone that you might need, he'll either buy it or call you and ask if you want it. He'll probably show up and help you install it, or take it home, clean it and then get it to you. He knows that you're trying to get your car on the road...without mortgaging your house. He'll help you refurbish, repair, modify and put items back in use .... that the check writer will simply replace, without a second thought. When the job is done, he'll share the memories of your restoration with you. He'll tell others about the work you did. He's like a wing-man.

I've yet to see a check writer have a wing-man.

Don't misunderstand me, I don't hold a grudge for those that can afford to simply write a check. Nor do I think their enjoyment is any less or more than mine. It's different. One man's tea is another's dirty water, and another's poor substitute for coffee.

But the last paragraph in your post speaks volumes.

The bottom line is - NO you don't have to do it yourself to fully appreciate fine craftsmanship, love a classic car, nor be a Z Car Enthusiast. It is perfectly acceptable at least to me - to send a car out for restoration or write a big check for one that's already done. If owning a "new" 240-Z enhances your journey - .... Me and Mr. K will be there smiling and waving as you pass by.... after all none of us built the car to begin with... and there is no need for us to do it ourselves today.
Underlined emphasis mine.

You are fortunate in that you CAN write that check or send your car out for restoration. So I can understand why you feel there is no need for us to do it ourselves. For the rest of us who are NOT able to just pay for the restoration or to purchase a restored car, we find we MUST do it ourselves. Unless you or someone else is willing to foot the bill for us, which I feel isn't going to happen anytime soon, we'll just have to continue to toil away.

I do note that you make a definite distinction between "Restore" and "Refresh". I won't quibble with you as I agree. I also agree that it does not make financial sense to effect the Refresh or the Restore yourself when there are excellent vehicles for sale for much less than the TOTAL of the restore or refresh.

However, and this is probably the crux of this, not everyone here can simply write out a check for the $20-$25k purchase price you mention.

I'll venture to say, that the majority would have to consider long and hard such an expense.

I'll even go so far as to say that without financing, most of us wouldn't consider making that purchase.

And there lies your demarcation line.

Those who are fortunate enough can and will ... simply write a check.

The rest of us, will have to buy cheap, expend hours of labor, sweat and even a bit of blood and tears, probably spend twice the amount .... but do it one small bite at a time, spread out over years. And yes, hope that at the end of the road, we can find a check writer to buy it from us....or our heirs...at 25¢ on the dollar.

Then, when they are taking the time to admire the craftmanship, and enjoy a classic car and be a Z enthusiast....a lot of that craftmanship will be mine, it will have been a classic car that I helped rescue from the crusher, and they can continue the Z enthusiast legacy with MY car.

I think the ad says.....PRICELESS at the end.

FWIW

E

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I'm with you on this one, Enrique. Some guys enjoy working on cars and as a result "can" rebuild their own cars. These guys devote the time because they want to. I'm going to love it when my cars are finished, but then I'll go looking for somethings else to attack. Working on the car is every bit enjoying the ride.

Some guys don't want to work on their cars and as a result "pay" for the finished product. They don't devote the time because they don't want to. They do other things with their time and it usually involves making money so that they can pay for the finished product. They have every right to beam about their accomplishment.

It all boils down to the road we drive. Either way, I suppose, we enjoy the ride. I'm on the build the car myself road.

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wow guyz i never expected such a response..... you all are awesome....

i agree with you 100% doing a restoration your self give you a great feeling of accomplishment...

i dont mind getting a car with surface rust i can deal with that. what i dont want is having to swap out metal....

i found a car in Jackson, Georgia thats been sitting in a field for the past 5 years.... http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29489

so i got my fingers crossed.... i'm hoping that it only has surface rust and nothing trough the metal....

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Of interest to me is the position that some feel that anyone who pays to have their car worked on is going to claim credit for the completed project. I can assure you that not everyone who pays for a restoration is going to claim "they" did it. There is a guy that lives near here that has many beautifully restored Z cars. He never claims to have restored them, however, he can, and does, take credit for keeping them detailed and hunting down missing parts, etc for them. He gives full credit to his mechanic for the work that he has done to the cars.

I also support my local Z-car mechanic. I do work that I can, and pay to have the rest done. Anyone who knows me can attest that I have never claimed credit for any work I did not do myself.

However, even if I pay my mechanic to do some work on the car, there are still a lot of thing I do as well, such as troubleshooting to determine what needs to be done, creating a "punch list" to make sure it is all done as I want it to be; hunting down, sourcing and securing parts for the cars; following up to make sure the work was done correctly; spending hours researching to determine the original configuration, placement, style, color, etc of some part or work. So while I may not turn the actual wrench, I do have significant involvment in where the wrench is to be turned and why. Like many "checkbook restorers", I am very actively involved in all aspects of retoration and maintenance of my cars.

I agree there is satsifaction to doing work yourself as well, and even more with friends. One of my fondest memories of my Lime Z is when the battery bracket bolt (that goes to the firewall) sheered off on the way to a meeting with a few Z enthusiast friends. We spent several hours that night in the driveway of a friends house with a screwdriver, chisel, hammer and old electric drill trying to get the bolt out to replace it (Remember that night Carl :classic:).

However, there is a different satisfaction in getting the car back from the mechanic and enjoying the results of the work done -- kind of like when you get a new car and drive it for the first time.

So the point of my long rambling is this -- to me, there is a place for those that do all their work themselves alongside those who pay others to have work done. Yes, there may be a few jerks that try to claim they did work they did not do. However, those people would be jerks regardless of whether they did the work themselves or payed for it, not because they paid someone else to do work on their car. In the end, regardless of how it got there, I think we can all agree that there is significant pleasure in driving a well restored and maintained classic Z :classic:

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There's been alot of "Ohhhh's & Ahhhh's" from the folks here when viewing the "Mull" project, most of which has been farmed out. Are his efforts now to be "tarnished" because he has not done this with his own hands?

I'm pretty sure it would be extremely hard to find someone who has done 100% of their own restoration. One may have expertise with metal work/paint/mechanicals but how are they with upholstry? See what I'm getting at.

So where does anyone draw the line?

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.... One of my fondest memories of my Lime Z is when the battery bracket bolt (that goes to the firewall) sheered off on the way to a meeting with a few Z enthusiast friends. We spent several hours that night in the driveway of a friends house with a screwdriver, chisel, hammer and old electric drill trying to get the bolt out to replace it (Remember that night Carl :classic:).

Hi Doug:

Yes, I certainly do remember it. Matter of fact, ToxIc's original post brought the picture of that night to my mind.

now i'm not like some of you lucky guyz out there that have the tools, space and skills to do a restoration. so i'm wondering what have the others paid for a good restoration.

We had the space and the skills that night - just not the proper tools. On the other hand we had plenty of beer ;-) I'm not sure if that made the process more or less challenging but it was more fun.

In spite of the fact that ToxIic stated right up front, that he did not have the tools, space and skills to do a restoration. Many people here told him to do it anyway. My original objection to, and disagreement with E's Post was that E told this newbe not to expect to be seen in the same light as those of us that do our own restorations/refreshes etc. E is certainly entited to his own light - but that is most certainly not the light I see the Z Car Community in.

Contrary to what E believes LOL (don't tell him how poor I am) - I have never written a check for, nor bought in any other way, a restored nor refreshed Z - Of the 12 or so cars I've refreshed/restored, with the exception of paint/body work I do all my own work. I did send an historic racing engine out to professionals, I had to have professionals recreate a custom Fuel Cell etc.

I did my own work on cars when I was young because I couldn't afford to pay someone else. So I developed the skills and picked up the tools along the way. Later in my life I did the work myself because I enjoyed it, and yes I have the tools in a place large enough to work today. Nonetheless, like you and many others here, I see Purists or Modifiers, Restorers or Buyers, Racers or Weekend Warriors all in the same light - Classic Z Car Enthusiasts.

After all the discussion here - my best advice to ToxIic and others like him would be to go buy the best 240-Z they can afford. Pay the money right up front for a really good car. Take out a signature loan if necessary and pay it off over time - - in the end you'll be a lot of money ahead, and in the mean time you'll have a good car to drive and enjoy.

We have all seen too many people start do-it-yourself projects, spend a lot of money on all the wrong things, then let the project sit unfinished for years and years - only to dump it in the end. If you don't have the tools, skills and space; and little hope of gaining them in time to do the project - don't kid yourself. Of the three -"skills"- are the first one that needs to be developed. Buy a really good car to start with - then learn to do the minor things first, and increase the scope or difficulty level of follow on projects on that car.

FWIW,

Carl B.

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There is room for everyone!

Personally, I have never seen an instruction in any Nissan S30 factory publication (and I have read most all of them-the English versions anyway) that reads anything close to "write a check"-meaning writing a check is not a skill that makes one an expert, but it does not preclude one from being an expert either.

I have paid for having things done that I didn't have the tools(including expertise) to do(removing broken 6mm studs from the block, boiling out a radiator, having a mirror resilvered).

I know people who believe writing a check makes them an expert, and I know people who know writing a check means that:

A) They don't have to be an expert.

and

B) They can enjoy instant gratification.

C) They won't always get what they paid for.

I think everyone falls into both types at one point or another-sometimes you buy something just to be on to the next thing!

To me on my Z, personal experience is more important than instant gratification, so more often than not, I'll get my hands in the dirt, and not the ink-and accept that means I may occasionally shout bad words and throw tools-directed into the yard, not the car!

The personal experience of writing a check has never made for much Z content...but doing something with the Z parts/tools the check bought has...

Will

ToXic, don't hold your breath, I looked at a car like that several years ago in that area, advertised as having "just a little rust and being an easy restore" it was well on its way to being restored to its original materials-rusting away back into the earth. Where leaves, extended sitting, and a Z are involved, there will be holes, lots of holes, and probably big holes.

Carl and E, you both are among the richest people I know. Knowing and working around your limitations proves your wisdom-if only I were as wise, I wouldn't shout bad words and throw tools!

Will

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Will, thank you for your thoughts.

Carl, although you may think this is not the case, I truly DO agree with what you have said many times:

...go buy the best 240-Z they can afford. Pay the money right up front for a really good car. Take out a signature loan if necessary and pay it off over time - - in the end you'll be a lot of money ahead, and in the mean time you'll have a good car to drive and enjoy.

And I have even said the same thing myself. In fact, that's how I bought my car, with a signature loan. I chose to do further work on my car to bring it to a higher level of "refresh" than what it was. But I readily inform people where my work begins and where it ends.

I can also understand where our difference of opinion comes from my statement of:

But don't expect to be seen in the same light as those that have skinned their knuckles, shed a drop or two of blood, sweat and tears, or spent weeks or months looking for that specific part... trying to bring their "baby" back onto the road.

I'm not referring to the type of individual as Doug professes to be, nor to the person he refers to in his opening paragraph. Nor does it refer to Mull as Moonpup has pointed out.

I'm referring to the guy who at a local car show, who, after winning "Best ..." or "Yst Place XXX" is brought up to the microphone or podium and he starts expounding on the long road to it's current state "Paint job took 7 weeks, bodywork took another 10, before that it was a basket case and it took 200 days just to find the parts to mechanically overhaul it and another 90 to finally put it all together." Then he gets asked and how long did you acquire the car, "A month ago."

Do you see the type to whom I refer to?

And they ARE out there.

I'm not the only one here who has talked to these individuals hoping to get them to share a bit of information on how they did something, or WHERE they had something done or found a part to buy...only to be told that they didn't know as they had only "just" bought the car. Yet, they had been expounding the trials and tribulations they had suffered in geting it done.

Restoration by proxy is fine...as long as you acknowledge the proxy. But presuming to deserve the credit for craftmanship labor is heinous.

Whether your involvement with your car is in sourcing parts, identifying the work to be done, handing tools to the guy who is actually doing the work or simply taking it to the mechanic, acknowledge your involvement to the degree that you ARE involved. But the key point is .... GET INVOLVED!

A check writer just signs a check and assumes the credit for all the work done. What's worse they reserve the right to criticize other people's work based on what they bought.

Sorry, in my eyes, either "Push, Pull or Get the Hell Out of the Way!", but don't presume to know or have experienced something by having written a check.

If you do write a check and your involvement from there is simply to keep it maintained, and that's what you profess to, then that's understandable. I don't delve into tuning my carbs, yet my engine runs well and strong. Same thing with a lot of the mechanical work. Not that I CANNOT, but that I chose NOT TO. I've stated that here many times, and what I've gleaned in knowledge has been due to other members of the forum. I won't try to explain cold valve adjustment, but I know it must be done. Same with the Spindle Pin Puller making the job easier, yet I haven't done or used it.

That's what I meant by a different light.

E

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Like others said, I think by the photo it sitting in 5" of leaves and weeds, the underside is SURELY shot. Anything is restorable if your pockets are deep enough, but this might make a good donor for a clean tub found elsewhere. Time for a road trip to Arizona? I have a trailer if you have a truck! http://www.zcarsource.com/cars_and_shells.html

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When you buy a car, immediately set a limit on what you can afford, and then set your restoration goals.

I try to approach everything by net value. If I can buy a car, work on it for 12 months, sell it, and end up $5000 or less in the hole, then I will do it.

I have done a few "refreshening" projects and am currently in the middle of a complete restoration as well. Unfortunately I have done completely different cars, so that each new project is completely unfamiliar and takes me forever. For example, the current 3 cars -- a 1967 Lincoln, 1967 Nova, and 1975 280z. The "Z" is just a refresh.

I bought my "Z" for $8000. I will probably have $18000 when I am done, and I hope to sell it for about $13000. I can do most of the work myself, except for paint and body.

The Nova restoration will cost around $60K and I hope to sell it for $50-55K.

If I can have a hobby that costs me $5000 - $10000 per year, then it works financially for me, but anything more I consider too expensive.

When money runs tight, I just slow down or work on one car at a time.

If I am lucky, I might end up even on a couple of cars, but it hasn't happened yet.

This is one hobby that gives a good sense of accomplishment in the end. You just have to be willing to sell it. Concours restorations require a completely different mentality, and you must really enjoy showing the cars because of the cost involved.

Just my 2c on how I approched my first "Z" purchase.

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Bottom line, It's like SEX! the journy to the finish is most of the fun! and yes, I've had more fun with my daily driver's than my BIG BUCK resto's.

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Bottom line, It's like SEX! the journy to the finish is most of the fun! and yes, I've had more fun with my daily driver's than my BIG BUCK resto's.

Sex? Yes, I prefer doing that myself and not farm it out. LOL

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First, I have to apologize for my feeble attempt at humor in that last post. It was not meant to belittle any of the points made by anyone in this thread.

Toxic, I don’t think I or anyone else can answer your question with a great deal of accuracy, without seeing the car up close & personal. Quotes will vary greatly, depending on the quality of work you specify and the type of work normally done by a particular shop. You know the old saying, “you get what you pay for?” Well, that’s only true if you are lucky and are treated fairly. Also, most shops would rather take on high volume insurance jobs and not cater to enthusiasts like us. That brings you to a shop that specializes in restorations, which in turn cranks the price dramatically skywards. Hey, these guys have to pay the bills too. From the small amount of practical Z experience I have acquired since owning my Z, I can see how it would be beneficial to have a shop specializing in Zs do the work. It really depends on the extent of the work needed & parts needed. That’s why it is so important for someone like yourself that is not able/equipped to do the work themselves to spend the money up front on a better condition car to begin with.

As far as doing the work yourself, there are a lot of pros & cons. After spending more time in the garage in my lifetime than most will ever do, and a few dozen varying degrees of restorations behind me, I can tell you a few things. First, from a financial perspective. It may be expensive to turn your car over to the pros for a restoration, but if you consider the expenditures you would have buying all the tools (and there is no end to what is wanted/useful) and the additional cost of acquiring and maintaining a suitable workspace, you are no further ahead. Then, there is the learning curve. Don’t expect to get professional results out the gate. It takes years to amass the amount of knowledge and level of expertise you would find at a pro shop, There are so many aspects to a restoration that no one man can do it all. Show me someone who says they can and I’ll show you someone who is mistaken. Over the years I have done much more freebie work for friends & family than I have done for myself. I’m not complaining and would do it all again. That’s what doing it myself means to me. I have enough great memories to last me a lifetime. Starting out at a young age, working with my Dad, my Brother, my Son and countless likeminded car guy friends, I guess you could say it’s in my blood and when I am unable to do it any longer, I won’t have any regrets. That’s me, but I don’t think people who have brought their cars to a professional restoration shop or bought their cars completely finished have any regrets either. It’s no different than buying a car off the showroom floor. You will still take pride in owning, maintaining and showing it off and you will also have memories to cherish & share. Sorry for the long post, but the stories relayed in this thread touch me and is a subject close to my heart.

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Sex? Yes, I prefer doing that myself and not farm it out. LOL

Ron, thats too bad you have to do it by yourself. Maybe you should consider 'farming' it out if you have to do it by yourself so much. LOLLOL

(just kidding...I saw the humor on your post..but man you opened yourself up for some good 'ol flaming there)

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Well Zak, were just trying to stay warm. You, busy working on Z parts and me getting my a$$ scorched.:D

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The big payoff for us was having the car entered in the Portland Roadster Show and having people stop by commenting "really sharp car!". Well, ... the girls said "what a cute little car!!"

:-)

All the work was worth it.

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Kerrigan, I really want to complement you on your Z, she is beautiful. I have been at the show for the past two days , helping set it up. And I have looked her over a number of times and others have commented also, how great a job you have done . Gary

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