gotta sell my 69 fairlady

[sblake01]

"Bragging rights", Stephen? If anyone is looking for bragging rights I'd say that Mr Beck is doing a pretty good job. But you think not, it seems.

Well after going back and re-reading the thread, I guess I had skimmed over a thing or two leading me to what I conluded. And as Chris (26/27) so eloquently pointed out, it would appear that I've been had. Considering my limited knowlege in this area, I'm going to just sit back and watch for a while before I comment again. :paranoid:

[26th-Z]

Eloquence fails me sometimes, Stephen. Nothing deragatory intended. I like the direction this conversation has taken. NovaSS deserves a big round of applause! AND probably a beer! Don't you think?

The study of architectural history has been a similar experience for me. Trying to understand "origins and intentions" is very difficult. They are "moving targets" with respect to an evolution of design. The perception of one moment from the distance of another moment must be considered also. Take a look at the movies Kats posted of events in late 1969. Notice how different things appear to be from what you might expect to see today. Ask yourself how you might describe the events or write about them. I find myself in a very similar situation writing about the Vintage Z program. It is difficult to ascertain fact from the collective opinions of those involved.

[hls30.com]

I think NovaSS would rather have some help-or a big check-for his car.

Will

[sblake01]

No offense taken, Chris. The comments just made me go back and read through the entire thread to see what I missed, and I discovered that I had missed quite a bit after actually reading it rather than just skimming it over.

[HS30-H]

Re: the phrase you phonetically wrote out "Shodai Z design kaihatsu shuki" , I note the use of the word DESIGN in there, which I find to be too coincidental with the use of the term in the English to ignore it's use in the Japanese. That, to me, implies that the Japanese language has assimilated the word Design into it's language to represent a previously un-labeled concept. (All words are labels, whether as names or as descriptions or modifiers.)

That helps to highlight how a concept idea expressable in one language is such a new item that the receiving language does not have time to generate it's label according to it's rules and must therefore assimilate an "external" word in order to have it's new word. This is, as a very broad rule of thumb, the differentiating factor between a "live" language and a "dead" language that differs from the "living people use it" and "no one alive speaks it", which are commonly thought to be the definitions of live and dead languages.

Spanish, apparently Japanese, and other languages are "dead" in that the label making machinery inherent in their structure is not set up or operational.

Enrique

Hi Enrique,

Its refreshing to see somebody on this site thinking about this kind of thing, but please don't read too much into Matsuo san's use of the word 'design' in his Japanese.

Who was it that wrote "for words are trains, for moving past what really has no name....".

You wrote yourself that these are just 'labels'. Its very common in modern Japanese to use many many 'Western' words, and just like any vibrant modern language, people chuck these words around and use them very freely simply because everybody soon gets used to what they mean. That's all that is needed.

I don't see how you can characterise Japanese as a "dead" language? New words are being created every day ( in fact I'd say that Japanese was one of the most fecund languages in the world at the moment ) and young people in particular are very adept at capturing the zeitgeist in this way. Look at that - I just used a German word. Does this mean that English is one the way to being "dead". No - it just means that we found a German word useful and we all pretty much agree as to what it means......

Matsuo san could have used the Japanese word 'Sekkei' instead of 'design', but using 'design' was preferable to him - and perhaps it conveyed something more of a modern creative sense than to say 'Sekkei suru'........

Do you know the name of Matsuo san's company? It is called 'PDS', an acronym standing for "Product Design Sekkei office". How about that? He used 'Product', 'Design' and the Japanese word 'Sekkei' all in the same phrase, and shortened it all up by using the Western habit of an acronym.

[HS30-H]

I think NovaSS would rather have some help-or a big check-for his car.

Will

Well, he DID get some 'help' ( in the form of relevant data ) didn't he? The kind of thing that would help him to back up his claims of it being an authentic November 1969 build when he comes to advertise it elsewhere.

We also saw a question about whether it was originally fitted with a 5-speed from the Factory laid to rest - which is just the kind of question that will be asked if he sticks it up for sale on eBay.

He also got a bit of 'help' on another thread that he created which was asking about identifying parts and cars that he has. I think he's had plenty of 'help', don't you?

As for a "big check", I'm afraid I can't help him on that score. I'm Fairladied-up and monied-out at the moment, but if the car was located in the UK I would probably pull out a few stops to try and get it, and then decide what to do with it later.

His car is located in just about the worst country in the world to get a "big check" for an early or rare first generation Z car at the moment - especially one that is seen as an 'odd ball' in that territory. That's just an observation on the relative value of the $US in comparison to other major world currencies at the moment, and the fact that some 'experts' ( as seen on this thread ) seem happy and willing to talk down the value of one man's car, but talk up the value of their own.

If the car was located in Japan he could put it up on Yahoo Japan auctions and expect to sell it straight away for - I'd say - easily 800,000 Yen or more as-is. Convert that to $US, and you might get a surprise. Get the right people fighting over it and more is achievable.

About two years ago, when I came across my '70 Fairlady Z-L ( the car that I am using as a base to build my 432R replica on ) I would have been ready to pay something around 4-5,000 Pounds Sterling for a base car like NovaSS might be selling. At the current exchange rate that is around the $10,000 Dollar mark. Probably sounds like a huge amount of money to you guys, but its just the reality of the economics. I have all the original Nissan panels ( including the inner 'fenders' and air tubes ) should they need replacement - so a bit of rust would not put me off. In fact, NovaSS's car looks to be in better condition than my project base car was when I bought it - with less missing parts.

Selling something like this is never easy, and NovaSS will - I think - have to be patient and persist if he wants to get a good price for it. He will also meet a lot of 'tyre kickers' and time wasters. I really hope that if it does get sold it will go to somebody who will appreciate what it is and what it represents. I would be happy to offer my help - in any way that I can - to anybody that buys it.

Alan T.

[hls30.com]

Alan,

I thought the word "more" (in front of the word "help"), but did not type it.

My mind was yet again faster than my fingers.

I think the car is more valuable than an early 240Z in the same shape, but only to a VERY small market. My value of his car comes from the expectation that it can be properly restored. Here in the US, that restoration will be a challenge. Parts that are not available will have to be repaired, fabricated, or modified from available parts-driving the cost of restoration way way up. It is not like a 240Z steering rack (or its parts) is (are) completely interchangeable with the fairlady piece(s), it (they) will not work in that application.

A properly restored vehicle is always worth more than a project car, and most Zcars (even at a Barrett Jackson event) do not sell for what it cost to restore them.

Fortunately, it is very difficult to put a price on the pride of ownership-especially when the owner is the one doing all of the work.

Will

[EScanlon]

SNIP

I don't see how you can characterise Japanese as a "dead" language? New words are being created every day ( in fact I'd say that Japanese was one of the most fecund languages in the world at the moment ) and young people in particular are very adept at capturing the zeitgeist in this way. Look at that - I just used a German word. Does this mean that English is one the way to being "dead". No - it just means that we found a German word useful and we all pretty much agree as to what it means......

SNIP

SNIP

Spanish, apparently Japanese, and other languages are "dead" in that the label making machinery inherent in their structure is not set up or operational.

SNIP

BOLD EMPHASIS MINE

I help do translations for a chain of Spanish speaking radio stations as well as for my company's brochures and pamphlets. What I'm referring to, isn't the assimilation of words in other languages into yours to come up with a new word, which is what you cited and what Matsuo did. The word DESIGN, and ZEITGEIST are from outside languages to English and Japanese respectively.

The label making machinery that I'm referring to, is the codification or rules if you will by which a language creates from WITHIN itself a new word.

In English a Shear is a tool used to clip hair quickly, a ShearER is someone who uses shears. In Spanish, a dog is a perro, and a street is Calle, a stray dog, that is one that lives on the street is a perro callejero. That's not the kind of rule that I'm referring to. All languages have some form of this rule. The ability to modify a word in use to make a new word.

The assimilation of words outside the language (foreign words) to then become a "new" word in that language, that steps outside the new word mechanism inherent in the language, is what I'm referring to. Some people have called this the "bastardization" of the language. Using Zeitgeist, Salsa, in English, and Design in Japanese (and also the phonetic way they say Ice Cream) are assimilations of a foreign word instead of creating from within.

Spanish, Japanese and others, have more difficulty in creating from within, so they assimilate from other languages. It is this that under the "broad rule of thumb" that I was given that says they're "dead". No, they're not dead, but they DO borrow from outside.

2¢

Enrique

[HS30-H]

Spanish, Japanese and others, have more difficulty in creating from within, so they assimilate from other languages. It is this that under the "broad rule of thumb" that I was given that says they're "dead". No, they're not dead, but they DO borrow from outside.

Enrique

I still don't understand exactly what point you are trying to make in relation to Matsuo san's book chapter title. The fact that he used the ( English derived? ) word "design" means exactly what in relation to the point I was trying to make ( the fact that he wrote what translates as "Original Z" rather than "240Z", as the translation had it )?

I don't know what linguists on your side of the pond say, but over here in England the linguists say that a language is alive and kicking if it is assimilating, tweaking and re-using words from other languages, as well as creating new compounds and onomatopaeic words. If English is still alive and kicking, then I'd say - judged by the same criteria - Japanese is too. Name me a language that DOES NOT, or HAS NOT borrowed from another.

You should never discount the issues faced by an ancient language that uses an ideogram-based writing system. 'Modern' words have to be written phonetically, and this is one of the reasons that Japanese has Hiragana and Katakana as well as Kanji. But new 'Japanese' words ARE being created every day, and some of them CAN be written in Kanji ( just as long as everybody agrees as to what they mean ).

I do hope that you are not trying to imply any of that old 'Japanese only copy - never create' type bullsh*t that gets thrown around by morons and mouth-breathers who know nothing about the origins of their own culture, let alone any Eastern ones. That would not be like you at all........ so what is the point you are trying to make about Matsuo san using the word "design"?

I feel like a damned plate spinner trying to address all the stuff going on in this thread.

[Bambikiller240]

Wake me when the language class is over. (NOT taking sides, just BORED)

[EScanlon]

Alan:

The whole point on the language assimilation of words was to emphasize what I had written in my original post, that a translation from one language to another, given the ideological differences involved and further exacerbated by the assimilation of foreign words that may or may not be assimilated with their original meaning (from the original language) that brochures and other printed items will have, and do have, problems.

Where you write: "( the fact that he wrote what translates as "Original Z" rather than "240Z", as the translation had it )?" I feel is a good example of what another translator would have done differently.

As far as what linguists say, I'm not quoting anyone, just giving a "broad rule of thumb" that was given to me years ago to denote the mechanism withn a language with which it makes new words.

I don't speak Japanese, nor read it. Therefore, as I stated, I can only go on my ASSUMPTIONS, which, from what you type may be in error. The examples I cited were mostly in other languages other than Japanese. I can bore you to tears with this kind of example in Spanish, as that is what I translate on a somewhat professional basis (i.e. for pay), but other than the two I mentioned (ice cream and design), I have no clue.

As far as the "Japanese Copy" BS you cite, I have no idea why you would bring that up. If anyone can infer that from what I've written, then "methinks the lady doth protest too much).

Personally, I know that it is just that, BS, so I wouldn't take that side of a discussion.

Ok, in my opinion, WAKE UP BAMBI!

Enrique

[Mr Camouflage]

Couldnt be bothered reading all the crap since my last post, but i might just say, that if the 240Z was designed specifically for the US market, it wouldnt it have been really ugly, as big as a whale and have a gas guzzlin' good ol' boy V8 (yeeee ha).

Seriously. The S30 series was developed with the world maket in mind. IE. Domestic and Internatioal requirements were taken into account when creating the car.

To develop a car specifically for just one market would have been foolhardy. What if the car wasnt a success in that market, you'd have lost all that money developing a car you couldnt sell. I think that to believe the car was designed just for the USA, or just for Japan is silly. It was designed for BOTH.

If you want to argue...., umm, discuss it any further, do it in the post that is about that topic, not in a post thats about someone wanting to sell his car.

Where's a moderator when you need one?

Think a WWF style cage match is in order.

.