26th-Z

Yes it is pretty much the same - check the part numbers between the two. I am just now stumbling on to information like this. There are great libraries out there and as I get hooked into the banter between the librarians, I learn and find a great deal of information. Frankly, a generation of classic Z people have passed and we are still talking about the same stuff that made up tech articles in the 70s and 80s. There is a vast wealth of information out there. Mostly, held by the guys who have been around the longest. Still chasing the idea that Datsun issued a defroster "decal" to dealer fit the early cars with. Still rumor.

The trouble with getting But's car, is actually getting it! I saw it last night, and I did NOT leave the stain on the seat! Don't blame me! I think it's from all that crazy e-mail you have been posting, Burt, if you are reading this. You guys are comparing apples to oranges in my opinion. Burt supposedly DID get a valid offer in the 30s range. He should have closed the deal. He also (supposedly) got a valid offer in the mid 20s and he should have closed that deal too, in my opinion. Am I mistaken, but is this eBay red car the same one that was in Colorado about a year ago? Remember that one was in the $25,000 range? Does anyone have old eBay pics of any of the Vintage Z auctions they want to send me? Congratulations to whomever bought it! Is that you, Jay?

Z Restoration Program – the program name Vintage Z – title of the cars Z-Store – outlets that sold the Vintage Zs The collection of information is growing and a few points about this discussion are beginning to clear. The cast of characters is widening! I just want express special thanks to everyone who has written, phoned, and offered information and opinion. This is a controversial subject, there is a lot of information about the program, and I am pleased to announce that so far, no reference mentions the involvement of Goertz! Most of the information I now have, is published by Nissan Motor Corporation U.S.A. and if I refer to Nissan or NMC, NMC NA, or NMC USA, I mean Nissan Motor Corporation U.S.A and respect the copyright. The “Z Restoration Program”, “Vintage Z”, and Z-Store”, are copyrighted names as well. The documents I have been able to secure include: “Rebirth”; 1997 “Greetings from the Z-Store at Nissan Corporate!”; No Date (late ’97, 25 cars produced). “Nissan Proudly Presents – “Vintage Z”; May 3, 1997 “Vintage Z Quality Control Launch Rally”; May 3, 1997 “News Coverage as of May 27, 1997” “Popular 240Z Restoration Parts”; 1998 “240Z Restoration Program Quality Control Checklist”; January 8, 1997 Let me begin by saying that it is quite obvious that the Z Restoration Program was a publicity / marketing focused effort. The bibliography I hoped to collect has now expanded to over 59 “news coverage” publications, 9 automotive magazine articles, and 25 television news programs with a combined estimated audience reach of over 84,252,000. By comparison, my bibliography of American automotive magazine publications – reviews and road tests – for the 240Z up to 1972 totals 19. The audience reach study was done on the 27th of May, just after the May 3rd unveiling. I think it is safe to say that Nissan did this for publicity and marketing reasons. Hoping to benefit from improved image and name recognition after slumped sales and the discontinuation of the 300ZX in 1996, Nissan Japan approved the Nissan USA proposal and a budget for the program was established. “Fortunately, the following for Z-cars is just as strong as ever. After the 25th anniversary celebrations in Atlanta, a representative from the American clubs was sent to Tokyo to plead with Nissan to revive the Z. President Hanawa and the staff in the USA were so impressed that a number of older examples were rebuilt with the backing of the factory and sold as new cars. This was an unprecedented turn of events for a major manufacturer”; Yutaka Katayama, “Fairlady Z Story” (translation), Long, Miki Press. “We hope this program has helped bring new life and new interest to all Z’s out there, and we anticipate that this program has increased the value of your own vehicle”.; Greetings from the Z-Store…1997 “As you may recall, several of the first cars delivered were for special programs, such as a “press car” reserved for journalists…”; Greetings from the Z-Store…1997 There are other references to how and why the program started. It seems the budget grew as demand and sales grew. It seems widely agreed that the program was beneficial, if not financially, for Nissan – calling on their successes of the past. It was not long after the program that the 350Z was announced. I am pleased to confirm that Vintage Zs were constructed at the following four facilities: Pierre Z Car Center; Hawthorne, California Classic Datsun Motorsports; Vista, California Old Car Service; Huntington Beach, California Datsun Alley; Signal Hill, California There is a lot to this story, guys. I can see why there is talk of writing books. This story is a journalists dream. ZCCA is heavily involved. Katayama spoke at the introductory event which included a car show and rally. I have a home video of the show, May 3, 1997 at Nissan National Headquarters, Gardena. There is a conversation about how the “Z-Store” was initiated. There is a conversation about how the program grew and about it’s demise; why ,when, by whom? A Vintage Z was sold at the 12th Annual Monterey Auction (Rick Cole) for $35,000. Vintage Zs were sold to Japan, London, and United Arab Emirates. There is a controversy about parts – what parts went on what cars – and authenticity of restoration. I have a definite opinion for an editorial, but I’m going to gather some more info for that thread. When the program ended, there were parts left over that went to private concerns. The restoration checklist document offers an insight to how the cars were restored and it appears as though Nissan kept records of the most popular replacement parts along with costs. A great many chapters, eh? Jerry, can’t wait to hear what Les had to say.

It turns out that the Technical Service Bulletins of that era were published in book form and include the full line of Datsun models. Searching for the one particular situation is rather complex and tedious. I did find this, and although it doesn't answer our particular discussion, it does offer some informative insight. Of course, I apologized for the quality of the copy. Only the best for you guys! I'm still working on more information. This is Service Bulletin TS72-29, Aprill 11, 1972, pertaining to HLS30 models. It outlines the installation of horizontal wired glass, but note the yellow highlighted sentences indicating that wiring for the heated glass is not in the harness for serial numbers below 1456. I will consult the Asian Twins and report back.

Is that a fog lamp switch in the mystery hole?

Just jumping in to compliment Ron. Seriously nice rig. I think that is the first time I have seen it. Last time I saw your car was at the convention. It's come a long way! Can't wait to see you again at the MSA.

With luck, I am going to come up with the service bulletin that advises dealers to install the heater elements with an adhesive kit. With more luck, I'm going to come up with the part number for the adhesive kit. The research monster is on a winter quest. There could very well be a correlation between the HLS30U and the HLS30UN, Bob. I was told the other day that 85% of 240Z sales were in the Sourthern part of the country. No confirmation of that. But, I will confirm that my cars do not have the extended air cleaner horn with air door or the pre-heater hose. I'll get you some pictures. They just have an open air horn.

During competition, Alfadog, no one is riding in the back. Too much extra weight, eh? Very nice, Ben, and all my jealousy for the new year! Thanks for the pictures.

Here are some good photos of restored suspension. The yellow dabs are inspection paint indicating the nut was torqued.

Add to the Bibliography: Sport Compact Car magazine, August 1997 Autoweek, May 26, 1997 Automobile magazine, June 1997 Here are a couple of scans from the Nissan publication "Rebirth", copyright Nissan Motor Corporation U.S.A.

Oh! That's Jim in the red shirt and Billy in the shorts. I'm taking the picture. I'm not an old guy. Well......I don't think I am. I'm in better shape than Jim! Good luck with Billy. I think I paid him $700 or so to get #27 from Delaware to Tampa. All the other places I called wanted $800 or more. 27 was a dead car, too. If yours starts up and drives, the price should be less.

Billy Springle, Springle Transportation Services www.stscars.com 14656 63rd Court North Loxahatchee, Florida 33470 (561) 436-4681 TugRacing@aol.com I met Billy at Hooters during the Porsche Rennsport Reunion. He had just delivered a bunch of Porsches. Billy delivered Princess 27 to me last summer. Cool guy. Pay him in cash and tip him. Use my name. Chris Wenzel

Complete agreement, Phred.

Thanks Bob and thanks Jerry! I'm taking the day off Thursday to devote to a research mission. I have arranged an audience to one of the great collector LibraryZ. Bob, your connection is another great LibraryZ. We should find some interesting information and expand our bibliography. Jerry, I have not contacted Les. Go for it! I want to mention that I am hoping to come up with some other interesting information from my visit to the LibraryZ. It seems some documents I have been looking for are closer than I thought. Should be fun. I also want to mention some of the private e-mail I have been receiving and thank everyone for their interest and writing to me; their suggestions, contacts and comments. I think I discovered the origins of the F word. I also think we might run into some sensitive issues about the Z Restoration Program as we get further into this. I want to reiterate my intention to establish a comprehensive bibliography of the published material on the subject. Not that all the written material is completely factual, rather identifying what was said and in what context. It would be a dream to account for all the cars. Lets see how far we get. How many of you saved pictures from Restoration Program cars that have been on eBay or other classifieds? Here is a blurb from the Nissan publication "Rebirth"; 1997. "When available, genuine Nissan parts are used. And in those cases when non-Nissan parts are used, quality non-OEM parts are approved by Nissan engineers, specifically for use on these restored cars". "Some vehicles shown with optional equipment. See actual vehicle for complete accuracy". And ..."not all model years, colors or option combinations will be available".

Thanks Eric! I had remembered that there was at third shop involved - Datsun Alley. I was also told today that Marc sold the business. More as that develops. Let's add to the bibliography of essential reading: Long, Brian; "Datsun Z, Fairlady to 280Z", Veloce Publishing 1998 - chapter 8, "Buying and Restoring an Early Z". The pictures I posted of the silver car came from Nissan N.A. press pack about the Z Restoration Program. Those and several more are published in Long's book. "An amazing restoration - the result of around 300 hours' work. Nissan North America will sell the restored cars through a limited number of dealers across the States, with prices running at around $25,000". The postscript paragraphs of Chapter 8 describe the essence of the program. Many of the points we have discussed in the past, in past threads, are brought to light in this reading. We are going to discover / uncover quite a few issues that have been points of debate in the past; that which may debate what Nissan published to the press concerning the intent of the program.

You are writing the book, Tomohawk!

Would you put me in touch with Marc, please, Juan? My e-mail address is cwenzel at earthlink dot net I'm still raising the troops and would love to speak to him. If anyone wants to write me, put Z Restoration Program in the subject line. Thanks I had the chance to express some other thoughts to a private message this morning. I want to emphasize respect for the privacy of car owners and copyright laws. I plan to put watermarks on information I scan and describe where I got the information. I don't think we really need to know who owns what cars. What comments do you have concerning copyright issues, Mike? Let's keep this discussion professional.

This is going to be quite an undertaking and I’ll need as much help as I can get. Don’t you think? Should be fun! I know there is a lot of published information out there – magazine articles and such. If anyone would like to mail information to me, use my business address; 513 Central Avenue #101, Sarasota, Florida 34236. I will gladly return material as requested, but I don’t mind copies at all. If you have magazines, post the issue and date for the bibliography. In order to obtain information, I’ll need to write e-mails and letters. Any introduction you might be able to give me would be appreciated so that I’m not given the brush-off as if I were some quack or ricer fanatic. I seem to have more information about the PierreZ operations than anything else. Most of the info I have is PierreZ related and I have this nifty video. Perhaps still photos can be made from the DVD to post. I have almost nothing about Les Canaday’s involvement. Nissan contacted Pierre Z Car Center in September 1996 based on references they had about their work. An agreement had been reached by October and the first car was completed in February 1997. Nissan envisioned restoration of approximately 200 cars and Pierre Perrot proposed limiting his private customer services in order to accommodate the Nissan project. Facilities had to be organized to physically restore the cars and special equipment such as body dollies and rotisseries had to be fabricated. Initially, the agreement was for restoration of one car to see how the project was going to work. (See photo below) By May of 1997, the project was in full swing and Katayama san visited the facilities at Pierre Z Car Center in Hawthorne, California. A number of candidate cars were purchased based on their condition and “restorability”. Primary emphasis was placed on the condition of the body shell – meaning “rust free”, and matching serial numbers were verified. The cars were disassembled by hand and all parts were cataloged and examined. Parts that could not be restored were replaced with new (NOS) or original (OEM) or from donor cars. We will get into the parts conversation more in depth as we will see that parts became a defining issue with the program. To the best of my knowledge, all the selected candidates were 1970 – 1972 model years. I am not aware of any serial number accounting at this time, however I believe all the cars were HLS30U types. During this time, ten Nissan dealers were selected to sell the “Vintage Zs” based on the past sales performance and interest of the dealers. They were: Jake Sutherlin Nissan, Tampa, FL Sutherlin Nissan, Marietta, GA Esserman Nissan, Miami, FL Coggin Nissan, Jacksonville, FL Universal City Nissan, Los Angeles, CA Performance Nissan, Duarte, CA Stevens Creek Nissan, Santa Clara, CA Bankston Nissan, Irving, TX Courtesy Nissan, Richardson, TX Brown's Fairfax Nissan, Fairfax, VA I don’t know much about the dealer distribution program. It seems that initially, the distribution was California focused, but as you can see, there are three dealers in Florida for me to contact. I find it very interesting that Bob Sharp Nissan is not on the list and that the list does not contain distribution in the Northeast and Midwest. For those of you who own one of these babes, or know someone who does, please describe the car and post photos with the model date, date of original manufacture (on the door jamb) and serial numbers including the Vintage Z number. As parts and originality seem to be an issue, the peculiarities of your car would be very interesting. I can assure everyone that strict adherence to part / year correctness was NOT made and that many cars were equipped with modifications. We can get into that issue as well. Thanks for all the interest! :classic:

I'm starting a discussion about the Z Restoration Program. Far too often, I see the program described as "Factory", have been guilty of using the F word myself, and objections have been justly raised in the past about the misleading term. I hope to gather accurate information about the restoration program in a comprehensive thread. Please refer back to the thread "wow-just listed". http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15893&page=1&pp=15 where this thread idea started. I want to assemble a comprehensive discussion of the subject. There are many aspects about this program that apply, such as the financial health of Nissan in 1996 and the discontinuation of Z car sales in the United States. There is no doubt that the Z Restoration Program was a marketing ploy, but a lot of interesting stuff can be discussed including the “value” of these cars. I want facts and references; serial numbers, colors, special fitment features – an accurate accounting of all the cars. I have started a bibliography. Look up the references. This is going to be along term project, so go out and do your homework and come back with your contributions. No bitching, dissing, or bad-mouthing allowed. The F word is out – don’t use it. V12horse – “There is a big difference between saying "Factory restored" (Which this car was not!) and being restored by respected restorers authorized by selected Nissan dealers (Which this car was!). I don't want to start a war about this, but I hope you and others realize the difference between the two”. Bambikiller240 – “It was not the dealers that authorized the refurbishment of theses cars. AFAIK, It was Nissan USA”. “Nissan is proud to announce our Z Restoration Program, a trailblazing venture committed to elevating vintage 240Zs to their original glory and, thanks to today’s technology, even beyond”. (Nissan Motor Corporation U.S.A. Nissan Z Restoration. 7-97-5M-CMG) See the two brochures -yellow and red - shown on the left side of the attached picture? I have those. The red one is entitled "rebirth" and describes what is officially termed as the "Z Restoration Program". Initiated in 1996, the Nissan program contracted private businesses to restore selected HLS30U types purchased by Nissan and resold through selected Nissan Dealerships termed “The Z Store”. The actual Nissan production facilities in Japan (factory) had nothing to do with the program. The 40-odd cars were produced by Classic Datsun Motorsports, PierreZ, and I thought Banzai Motorworks, however: Daddz – “I can safely say without a doubt that Banzai Motorworks was not involved in restoring any of the 50 or so Z cars purchased by Nissan N.A. However, Mike did sell 50 of his reproduction "OK" stickers to Nissan N.A. (When it's good it's good). The only two shops ever mentioned in the magazine articles of that era were Classic Datsun and Pierre Z. In one of the articles there was mention of a mass purchase consisting of somewhere in the neighborhood of 150 cars. There is a photograph depicting a bunch of them all chained together much like prisoners; only problem is that about a third of them ever saw the loving hands of either shop. You may recall that on ebay in two separate auctions some of what was left of the program was sold off very cheaply. In the first auction a BRG 240Z still installed on its dolly awaiting re-assembly that sold for approximately $6-8,000. As proof of that car's tie to the program was a letter from Nissan, N.A. written to the State of California asking that the new owner not be responsible for any fines or fees should the car be re-registered in the State of California. In another auction a lot of about 10-15 cars was offered at a ridiculously low sum of money and if I remember the auction wasn't completed. In that second auction it made mention that the cars were awaiting the "factory restoration"--the auction wording not mine-- and that since the program terminated early the remaining cars were to be sold off”. So fire up your scanners, practice your copy-clip technique and lets see if we can assemble a discussion of serious, complete, and accurate information about these babes. I gathered some information from PierreZ when I was out in California last spring. I’ll be working on posting some of it. Especially the way the engines were installed. Why, might you ask, am I interested in this? Because, I’m restoring two cars. I think this is THE standard by which we look at restorations of the 240Z. There is no intention implied that there are not other shops performing equal or better workmanship. The Z Restoration Program is simply a benchmark. Bibliography http://www.classicdatsun.com/zz/nissan.html http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6790&highlight=factory+restoration http://www.zonc.org/TechnicalInformation/VintageZ.html http://www.geocities.com/z-car/rebuild.html http://www.geocities.com/~z-car/rebuildpics.html

Ok, I'm starting a new thread.

Really good article, Carl. I lament over the racing we don't get in America, but then I shouldn't bitch for as close as I am to Sebring, Daytona, Hollywood/Miami, Moroso, Gainesville, and Road Atlanta. I loved the tri-lingual reference...ouch! So true. Froeliche Weinachten

Hello Kats! Great to here from you! Great news about the test drive cars. Wow! You have better photographs - I know! My best wishes to you and your family, my friend. If Sarasota was not so close to the tropics, it would be snowing this morning. Quite cool and raining lightily. The palm trees glisten in the mist and one can only imagine. We decorate palm trees down here!

Thanks for all the input, everyone. I have learned that Australia (go figure) commonly has clear glass. Cool! I confirm the part number for the clear glass. Add that to the hypothesis, Alan. It looks like the intention was specifically export oriented? I also agree with the idea that horizontal lines work better and go back to my statement about Datsun / Nissan on the cutting edge of design in 1969. The hidden hatch hinge sealed in a rubber boot was cutting edge as well. Compare the hinge to the S30's contemporaries. Now, I am not completely certain that the North American Testing Program cars had clear glass, but all the photos I have show no indication of heater lines. I wonder why Datsun would have not tested the heated glass. It seems like the perfect opportunity. Do we know anything about home market testing programs?

Who actually did the work? I think there were three shops - Les Canaday / Classic Datsun, Pierre Perot / PierreZ, and ?Mike McGinnis / Banzai? Am I correct about Banzai? Who were the body shops? Want to see pictures of the body cradles that were used in the chassis prep? Do you all want to know more about how they were restored? What the shops looked like? Three shops??? would indicate three different mechanical techniques and a distinguishing "fingerprint" of restoration? Is there any accounting of who did what cars? Have we ever discussed this, or have we always simply dissed the F word. Let's turn this into a legit piece of carcheology and bring together some information. I'll start a thread after the holiday. I have a bunch of stuff from PierreZ including a video that has been transcribed to DVD. I have a Nissan brochure from the Z store. Ol' Yeller is a Pierre, I think. Zmecca in Tampa has one of the automatics. I'll start a new thread. Interested?

Greetings gentlemen and happy holidays! Let the Tomas call me up and harrass me, Alan! I love hearing his point of view and don't you think for a minute that I believe all of it. :eek: The first "window sticker" I have posted is from Her Majesty; the yellowish print. The second is from a known 1970 production car. And the third is a blank from the 1972 model year. I am working on a collection of North American Service Bulletins which may indicate when the "change" was made, but this is a patient game and it may be some time before I aquire the information. I DO know that the illuminated switches began in January 1971 with what is refered to as the Series Two cars. I am glad to see people jump into this conversation. As "nerdy" as it may seem, some of us enjoy this aspect of "carcheology". I tend to think of it as an appreciation of what we are looking at when we view someone's car. I thoroughly love looking at cars, all cars, and like savoring a fine wine or topless dancer, I like to know a little bit about what I am looking at. Alan, you asked me if I have arrived at a conclusion. No. Here are some thoughts about the subject from my opinion. The clear glass was an intentional decision for the initial HLS30U cars. I used to think that the change of spec came from the North American Testing Program, but evidence of the clear glass in the higher serial numbered cars blows that explanation - perhaps. The hatch vent situation changed much later, and I am convinced that the hatch vents changed because of the Canada tour of the Program. I am fairly certain that the NATP cars had clear glass. There is no reason to discount the economic explanation. I am of the opinion that the HLS30 is more closely tied to the S30, however. The wiring harnesses contain the same features. We could argue floor mats and carpet, but these photos all indicate carpeting as a standard feature. For the record, 26 has rubber floor mats and 27 has rust. I suspect that the HLS30U (N,V) is a fully independent model specifically geared to a certain marketing profile. I don't know why, but it seems obvious that Datsun marketing thought to "tone down" the spec for the North American market. I think they underestimated what they could have sold for a higher price. I think that this conversation is fuel to argument that Datsun had no idea how popular the 240Z was going to be in the export variant. The rear window defroster was a cutting edge feature in 1969. Further indication of what impact the Japanese manufacturer's had on the American car market. I can only imagine if the Z would have come with cup holders! It seems some of the very first cars were sold with the defrosters as an option or dealer installed standard. Perhaps Datsun did not know if the Americans would appreciate heated glass? Perhaps some cars were fitted as an attempt to judge marketing reaction? I'm going out on a limb, but I think we are going to find that the vertical lined defrosters became standard some time around July through October of 1970. This was a period of major modifications and I think the heated hatch glass was one of them. The production numbers for the Series Two cars are too high to support the idea that the change was made at that time. This seems to be a low serial number thing. Thanks to every one who writes in and polls their car. It helps the collective knowledge.