Captain Obvious

And just to clarify what I'm talking about... I'm talking about the perforations below the quarter windows on both sides right behind the seats. The ones that are right on top of the speakers that mount there. Page BE-5 of the 77 FSM: It's looking like earlier years didn't put speakers there, but later years clearly did. I'm out of town, but I'll snap some pics when I get a chance.

I just took a look back through some of the FSM's and it appears that the transition from back by the antenna to up right behind the seats ocurred between 76 and 77. 72 - Fig BE-38 - Back left near antenna 73 - Fig BE-38 - Back left near antenna 74 - Fig BE-129 - Back left near antenna 76 - Fig BE-136 - Back left near antenna 77 - Fig BE-140 - Back right behind pass seat So what about the trim piece around the rear quarter windows? I've seen them on ebay listed by years, but most of the ones I've seen for 77-78 have the speaker hole perfs in them. I'm guessing that everything prior to 77 was solid, and everything after was perforated on both sides?

Thanks guys for the confirmation. I'll stop looking for the wires for the other side speaker. As for which side it's on... I can confirm from very recent experience that the one and only one speaker is on the passenger side. At least in 77. They may have put it on the driver's side in other years, but my car matches the FSM and it's on the right side. You mean that both sides had perforations in the trim panels for the speakers regardless if they were there or not?

So I've been removing the radio that my previous owner put in and as part of that removal process, I have turned up what look to be the original pair of wires for the stock speaker below the rear quarter window on the passenger side. However, I did not turn up a pair of similar wires on the driver's side. Went to the FSM and it appears that there was only one speaker on the original radio system, and it was on the pass side. Is that correct? Interesting though... I've got symmetric factory mounting holes in the body on both sides. Just below the quarter windows for speakers on each side, but at the factory, they only ever populated one of them? They never put a speaker on the driver's side? TIA for enlightenment.

I've had some issues with the water temp switch in the past on my 260, and have put together the below in an effort to help other owners diagnose issues with the system. I'm no expert and it's certainly conceivable that I've made mistakes with the below, or missed something somewhere, and I'd be happy to hear about it. Keep in mind that the only year I've laid hands on is 74, so other years info is somewhat speculative in areas and has been gleaned from documentation sources. Also, if there anyone would like to add info for years 75-78, that would be excellent. Respectfully submitted.... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The Water Temperture Switch - What It Does: Starting on the 1974 260Z, Datsun included a "Water Temperature Switch" located in the thermostat housing. It is used to control ignition timing and EGR actuation. Looking in the earlier manuals, it's clear that the origins of the water temperature switch actually started in 1971 when a device known as the "Thermo-Switch" and corresponding "Thermo-Relay" was used to control ignition timing on the automatic transmission version cars (1972 manual page EC-11). Here is a description of the systems for a few years. The reference pages are based on the FSM for that year. ~~ 1972 240Z ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 1972 - The "thermo-switch" and "thermo-relay" were used only on automatic transmission cars (EC-11 and BE-5) to control ignition timing. If included, the thermo-switch is located near the passenger's feet (Fig BE-1) and the thermo-relay is located in the engine compartment on the wheel well below the ignition coil (Fig BE-1). The remainder of the 1972 details below apply only to the automatic transmission cars as the manual transmissions versions did not have a thermo-switch or thermo-relay installed. The thermo-switch characteristics are as follows (EC-11): On (closed) below 30 F Off (open) above 52 F The thermo-relay characteristics are as follows (EC-21): One set of Normally Closed (N/C) contacts System operation is as follows: When cold, the thermo-switch is closed and the thermo-relay is energized. The normally closed contacts are open and the ignition timing is controlled by the advanced points. When warm, the thermo-switch opens and the thermo-relay de-energizes. The normally closed contacts are closed and the retarded timing points short across the advanced points which over-rides the signal from the advanced points. In this way, the ignition timing when warm is controlled by the retarded points. ~~ 1973 240Z ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 1973 - The "thermo-switch" was used on all cars to control EGR function (BE-5 and BE-6), and in addition, automatic transmission cars also included the "thermo-relay" to control ignition timing (BE-6). The thermo-switch is located near the passenger's feet (Fig ET-44 and Fig BE-2 #16) The thermo-relay, if included, is located in the engine compartment on the wheel well below the ignition coil (Fig BE-2 #24). The thermo-switch characteristics are as follows (ET-21 and EC-12): On (closed) below 30 F Off (open) above 52 F The thermo-relay characteristics are as follows (Fig ET-37): One set of Normally Closed (N/C) contacts System operation is as follows: When cold, the thermo-switch is closed, the EGR solenoid valve is energized, and the EGR function is disabled (EC-19). Also on auto trans cars, the thermo-relay is energized. The normally closed contacts are open and the ignition timing is controlled by the advanced points. When warm, the thermo-switch opens and both the EGR solenoid valve and thermo-relay de-energize. When the EGR solenoid valve is de-energized, the EGR function is enabled, and when the thermo-relay is de-energized, the normally closed contacts are closed and the retarded timing points short across the advanced points which over-rides the signal from the advanced points. In this way, the ignition timing when warm is controlled by the retarded points (Fig EE-62). ~~ 1974 260Z ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 1974 - The location of the temperature sensing device was moved from the passenger footwell to the thermostat housing and the name changed to the "Water Temperature Switch". The water temperature SWITCH is located next to the water temperature SENDER (not switch). The water temperature SENDER is used to control the temperature gauge on the dashboard, while the water temp SWITCH is used for EGR and ignition timing control. The water temp SENDER has one bullet style connector on it, while the temp SWITCH has two wires coming out of it which go to a two wire connector. They also changed the name of the associated relay from the Thermo-relay to the "Advance control relay" (Fig EE-60) or the "EGR Relay" (wiring diagrams). The location of the advance/EGR control relay remained located below the coil. All cars used a water temp switch and a advance/EGR control relay regardless of the transmission variety (see wiring diagrams for both versions), although only the automatic transmission cars varied the ignition timing. The changing of the ignition timing is now controlled inside the electronic ignition module and the auto and manual trans cars used different ignition modules because of this. The manual trans cars have a fixed ignition timing, while the auto trans cars have the ability to choose between an advanced or retarded pickup signal from the distributor. The manual trans cars only have one pickup. The water temp switch characteristics are as follows (EC-28): Off (open) below 88 F On (closed) above 106 F (* Note that the operation direction is different than previous years. It is now OFF-COLD, ON-HOT) The thermo-relay characteristics are as follows (Fig EC-28): Two sets of contacts. One set of Normally Closed (N/C) contacts used for EGR control One set of Normally Open (N/O) contacts used to send a signal to the ignition module System operation is as follows: When cold, the water temp switch is open and the advance/EGR control relay is de-energized. The N/C contacts allow power to flow to the EGR solenoid valve and the EGR function is disabled (Fig EC-28). The N/O contacts are open which open circuits the ignition module timing control signal line which tells the auto-trans ignition module to use the advanced pickup signal (EE-34). When warm. the water temp switch is closes and energizes the advance/EGR control relay. The N/C contacts open and de-energize the EGR solenoid valve which enables EGR function (Fig EC-28). the N/O contacts close which sends a 12V signal to the ignition module. This 12V signal tells the ignition module (if so equipped) to use the retarded pickup signal from the distributor (EE-34). Note that all the related wiring is the same for both the manual and auto trans cars (see wiring diagrams), but the difference is inside the ignition module itself. The manual trans module gets the same signal as the auto, but it simply has no effect. Some general notes for 74: If you were to use a manual trans ignition module on your auto car it would work, but your timing would be fixed to the advanced pickup. (Proof is left to the student) You cannot use an auto trans ignition module on a manual car without making some additional modifications. In theory, you could break the connection between the advance/EGR relay and the ignition module and then time the ignition off just one pickup, but you would have to figure out which pickup input is active and ground or hardwire the control signal to 12V accordingly. (Again, proof is left to the student) If you have a manual trans car and have removed the EGR valve, then the water temp switch and the advance/EGR relay are both doing absolutely nothing. There is a grounding mistake on the black wire from the temp switch (missing dot to a ground connection) on the wiring diagrams - Nothing connected to the temp switch would even work at all if the car were actually wired as it's drawn. The driver's side turn signal and marker lamp wouldn't work either. There are no other connections on the wiring diagram to anything involved with the temp switch and/or the relay that it controls. In other words, the ignition timing and EGR functions are the only two things that the water temperature switch can possibly affect. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Absolutely! I'm about out of time at this instant, but when I get a chance I'll port that 74 info over to it's own thread. I've been involved in a few discussions on the topic before, but I've never seen all the info in the same place at the same time. It would probably be helpful to 260 folks to remedy that. I know the 74 OK, and I'm working on digesting the 77. Everything else before and after? Not my department. Haven't thought about it in a while... Thanks for the refresher!!

Haha! Exactly!! :laugh: I saw that too when it happened and almost said something about it. "Holy Zombie!!! Ummmmm... You know this thread is like ten years old, don't you?" Instead, like you, I just hoped it go away (again). Same thing is happening on other forums as well... I was originally thinking padding his thread count, but that doesn't seem to be the case...

I got no beef here. I just thought the whole thing was a little weird... Out of the blue, mousemedic resurrects a year and a half old thread and posts incorrect information about 260's when the original thread wasn't even about 260's in the first place. ??? I wasn't going to add anything more after my original post unless mousemedic came back and asked a question. I was expecting the whole thing to go back to sleep. I just didn't want it to go back to sleep on an incorrect note. I suspect that detailed discussion about the 74 temp switch in a "1976 water temperature switch" thread is likely to get passed by in the future. Probably best suited to a different thread with a more appropriate title. Sorry. Yes, I did. It's because you asked no questions questing. It was all statements stating. But if you're questing, I'm no expert, but I'm happy to do what I can to provide clarity and knowledge: The 74 manual is admittedly obtuse when it comes to the temp switch. I've found the switch is described in multiple sections "functionally" instead of all in one place showing all the things the switch does. The only single source that I've found that shows everything in the same spot is the wiring diagram itself. The 74 switch is open circuit when cool (below 77 degrees F) and closes when warm (above 88-106 degrees F). It has two connections, one to ground, and the other to the "EGR Relay". When the switch warms up, it energizes the coil of that relay. Note that different years switches operate differently. On the wiring diagram, the water temp switch and the EGR Relay that it controls are both in the lower left corner. Note that there's a grounding mistake on the black wire from the temp switch (missing dot) on the diagram - Nothing connected to the temp switch would even work at all if the car were actually wired as it's drawn. The driver's side turn signal and marker lamp wouldn't work either. The EGR Relay has two sets of contacts. The N/C contacts start closed (when the engine is cool) and go open when the engine warms up which enables the EGR system. The N/O contacts start open (when the engine is cool) and go closed when the engine warms up which (on the automatic transmission cars only) switches the ignition timing from advanced to retarded. The manual transmission cars have all the same wiring to the ignition module, but use a different ignition module that ignores the timing change signal. I do not believe there are any other connections on the wiring diagram to anything involved with the temp switch and/or the relay that it controls. In other words, I believe the ignition timing and EGR functions are the only two things that the temp switch can possibly affect. All 74's used the water temp switch, not just the auto transmission versions. On the manual's it was used to control the EGR function. On the auto's it was used to control ignition timing, and the EGR function. If you were to use a manual trans ignition module on your auto car, your timing would be fixed to the advanced pickup. If you have a manual trans car and have removed the EGR valve, then the water temp switch and the EGR relay are both doing absolutely nothing. As before, I'm no expert, but I'm pretty comfortable with the 74 and the temp switch. I've been through the manual, I've studied the wiring diagram, I've tested the switch, I've tested the relay, I've redrawn the whole circuit in a form that makes more sense to me... And even after all that, it's still certainly conceivable that I've missed something and I'd be happy to hear about it.

I've got no problem with that page except that it isn't the whole story. There's more to it than that. Take a look at EC-16 and you'll see that the same switch and the same relay also controls the EGR function. And that EGR control happens on every 260 regardless of what transmission it has. Still not sure? Study the wiring diagram. It's there too.

I don't know where he got his info from, but the way it's stated it's not correct. All 74's used the water temp switch, not just the auto transmission versions. On the manual's it was used to control the EGR function. On the auto's it was used to control ignition timing, and the EGR function. Maybe it's a language issue in the way it's being described? Switch a few words around and look what happens... Incorrect - "The automatic only used the temp switch to switch pickups in the distributor." (the auto used it for more than just this) Correct - "Only the automatic used the temp switch to control ignition timing." (OK since the manual trans cars didn't change ignition timing based on temperature). "The temp. switch is used only in 260Z with the automatic trans." is incorrect on multiple levels since not only did all 74's use it, but on the automatic trans versions it was used for more than just ignition timing. All good?

Thinking about it? Sure. Am I going to go through with it? Probably not until I have a real reason to. My stock ignition seems to be working as intended, and I've got so many other things that need attention that I probably won't poke that hornets nest until I have a good reason to. That's a good price you've got there though....

That is not correct. All the 260's use the temp switch regardless of the transmission type.

Something else I did a little different was my pump installation procedure. After I was done with the priming process, I pulled the pump out, dumped most of the oil out of it, and while it was mostly empty, put the drive shaft into the pump, aligned the shaft punch mark with the oil hole, stuffed the shaft and pump up into the engine, used one bolt to hold it loosely in place, and verified that the distributor drive tab was where it belonged. So far, other than putting the pump in mostly empty, everything is by the book: And then here's where I veered a little from tradition. I clipped a small pair of vice-grips onto the distributor end of the drive shaft and used some masking tape to hold them temporarily into place. This allowed me to pull the pump back out without the drive shaft coming with it: Why? Two reasons. 1) Because the pump alone without the shaft is smaller and easier to handle. Less risk of dumping out my priming oil, and 2) Because now I could put a little gasket sealer on the pump gaskets and not have to mess with getting the distributor shaft in the right orientation. I didn't want to smoosh the gasket sealer, only to find that I had to pull the pump out again because the dist drive wasn't in the right spot. It went like this: I pulled the pump again after clipping on the vice-grips, gooped the mating surfaces with sealer, refilled the pump to almost the top with oil, stuffed it back up into the engine for the final time, in and tightened all the bolts. Only other detail to keep in mind is that you cannot rotate the pump internals during this process or the tab on the driveshaft won't line up with the pump slot. Just pour oil into both sides of the pump, but don't rotate the internal gear and rotor. One last thing I forgot to explain why the first thing I did was take the pump apart, and it goes like this... I did a little searching for Melling pump topics on the Z forums, and there are threads on both zcar.com and hybridz that indicated it would be a good idea to check the pump end clearances before installation. Members jeffp, Pyro, WangsMan seem to be the ones most involved, and here are some of the threads I found: http://www.zcar.com/70-83_tech_discussion_forum/cast_iron_oil_pump_689487.msg1279920.html http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php/topic/88729-truth-on-l6-oil-pumps http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php/topic/61680-kameari-high-performance-oil-pump-worth-it So anyway, I took the pump apart, deburred all the razor sharp machined corners (pet peeve), lapped the mating surfaces to check for high spots, and checked the end clearance. Lapping the mating surfaces highlighted that there was some metal upset when Melling pressed in the two locator pins, and once that was ground flat, the rest of surfaces were good. And for the end play, I measured .002 cold, so I think I should be OK. Also for posterity, the thickness of the Melling gasket, and came up with .006 thickness. Then I measured the Datsun gasket from my old worn out pump, and it is .004 thick.

Yup. Unfortunately, it means installing the pump without it's drive shaft, priming the system, and than pulling the pump again to reinstall it's drive shaft. It's a pain, but effective. Here's my oil pump replacement: http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/thread45302-2.html

Sweet. I'm now always skeptical about the stock spray bars after what I've seen on a few.

Blue, Did you verify your cam oiling looks proper? siteunseen, Those are good healthy streams you got there... What were you using to spin the pump, or is that just the starter motor turning things?

Your fuel rail looks correct 74 to me. Your carbs and balance tubes, however, came from 70-72. And, yes... most of your emissions parts have been removed. The vacuum hose that comes from the front carb and T's to the distributor and the charcoal canister is correct. That's what it's supposed to do. So what hose it that you want more info on? Can you take a pic?

Thanks for the info on the cradle. Forgot to ask before... Does the engine on that cradle have an oil pan installed?

I've got the scan from XenonS30, but I'll snatch a copy of yours if it's cleaner. Do you think it's worth the bandwidth if I already have one?

I looked in all the FSM's for guidance on how to install both the bushings and the washers, and didn't find any pics with enough detail to be 100% certain of direction of either of them. I put the thick side of the bushings (with the rounded corners) on the side which contacted the body because that's where the rod is supposed to pivot. If you picture what this thing does in application, the rod will swivel up and down at that point when the wheel moves up and down over bumps, etc. The receiving cups welded to the frame of the car are cupped on the inside as well to accept the bushings. The rounded corners seemed to me to dictate "I'll fit nice into the cups on the frame and will rotate at this point". And the washers I installed like all shock absorber and sway bar washers I've messed with in the past... With the concave portion facing inward towards the bushings. Lastly, I compared the whole installation to a 74 260 which I'm pretty sure has never had any work done to that portion of the suspension and it seemed they had the thinner portion away from the frame. I can't be 100% absolutely positive that's the way the 260 came from the factory, but the car was in the family since the early eighty's and I doubt the bushings needed any attention prior to that point.

One of my tension/compression rod nuts fell off somewhere and I lost some parts on the road. While inspecting the other arm (the one that didn't fall apart by itself), I discovered that I only had one correct large washer (out of four), and the other smaller washers looked suspect as well. I also did a little searching here on the site and found that the recommended configuration is poly up front, but rubber in back to lower the stress on the rod. After a bunch of searching, I turned up P/N 45G25036 bushing kit from AC Delco that is very nice and not only includes rubber bushing, but includes all the washers and nuts for one complete side. The washers are high quality, and the bushings are well made. I would recommend this kit if you are looking for rubber bushings. I would also recommend this kit if you simply need the washers or the spacers. AC Delco calls it a "BUSHING,FRT LWR CONT ARM ROD INSL" or a "Strut Rod Kit" Rock Auto calls it a "Shock Absorber Bushing" Shows up on Amazon as a "Pitman Arm Kit" Here's what I started with: Here's the bushing kits. One per side: Here's the washer and bushing configuration: Ready to go back on the car: I know that this is old hat for most of you, but it was my first time, and I was really impressed with the quality of that kit for such a low price.

Thanks much. Doesn't have to be too detailed. He's pretty handy with his table saw. Just something that I can point him to and say "Something kinda like this". I'm going to be helping with the engine pull, and I'm going to be lobbying for a pull with the tranny attached, so whatever "dolly" he comes up with will have to account for the trans as well, but in any event, the overall concept is still the same.

Engine looks beautiful. Hey, do me a favor? As mundane as it sounds, would you please take a pic of the wooden support that your motor is sitting on once you lift the motor up and off? I've got a buddy who's going to pull the motor out of his Z and stuff it to the back of his garage for maybe a year. I suggested he build a little wooden structure like what you've got there and put a set of heavy duty casters on the bottom so he could roll it around the garage if he needed to. Lift the motor out of the car and set down on a rolling frame made out of wood? And then... I see your pic with something similar to what I suggested to him!! :bulb: Yeah, I know... "A talking frog? Now THAT'S cool!"

And you type faster that me!!

Haha! Excellent! I wish you speedy delivery! 280~Master, Have you got any pics of this?