Jumping in with 2

[ArnieTX]

B/Y: When the Ignition Switch (IS) is in the START position, it routes power from the IS to the Seat Belt Sensor (K-18) Relay and / or the Automatic Transmission Switch Inhibitor, then to the Starter Solenoid. If either the SBS or the ATSI are open then no power and no start. This wire is only active in the START Detent.

I finally got some more time to troubleshoot this issue some more.

The problem has changed now.

For some reason, power is getting applied to one of the B/Y wires coming off the automatic tranny when the ignition is in the "ON" postion, before the "start" position is obtained. So went from nothing to getting 12V early.

Last time I messed with it I was trying to bypass the wiring with home made jumpers. It sure seems like I left one in somewhere but I can't find it.

Swapped ignitions of car#2 and no change.

If anyone has any ideas please throw them my way.

Thanks

[ArnieTX]

There are no jumpers anywhere.

So I set the ignition to run and measure 12V on one of those B/Y wires that plug into the inhibitor switch. I decided to unwrap the main wiring harness to see where these two wires go. I taped the hot wire with a piece of green tape to identify it.

The wiring diagram shows B/Y from ignition through the inhibitor running to the starter solonoid. After unwrappiing the main harness that comes out of the passenger side firewall and runs to the front of the car, I found the "hot" B/Y wire actually tied directly to a B/W wire(assume same BW tied to ignition). The other B/Y wire (other female connector that hooks to inhibitor) runs back towards the firewall through the main harness. The B/Y wire that went to the starter also ran back towards the firewall through the main harness. I'm guessing one end goes to the back of the ignition and the other I have no clue.

I looked under the drivers seat and pulled of a pressure switch. I closed it with vice grips and plugged it into the connector where the driver seat went. I buckled up the seatbelts. No joy.

On another note, the inhibitor switch on the tranny is good. With the 12V wire applied, I measure 12V out the other side only when its in park and neutral. 1,2,D = 0VDC

Root problem = no 12V present at solonoid(B/Y) when ignition turned to START.

Electrical is a struggle but the answer is out there somewhere. The guy I am working on this for thinks there's a part that needs hooked up to a connector that comes of the same wiring harness. Two of the B/Y wires ohm out at this connector. That makes me think something plugs in there and does something. See thread below for part that this connector goes into. It's missing from this car.

PIC #2 in this thread.

http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5899&highlight=interlock

Can anyone offer some advice on what else I might look at or try?

Thanks

[ArnieTX]

OK - Back to working on Car #3.

Today was my first attempt at replacing sheet metal on my car. The back right area next to the spare tire well was rusted through. I decided to cut a piece out of car #1 which is now an almost stripped to the bone donor car.

Bad area I cut out:

Donor Car Shot

Install into car #3

Underside view

Welding thin sheet metal is very hard.

Welding this together was very very hard to do. I am using a lincoln turned down as low as it will go. I experimented with different settings and angles on the gun but to no avail. Things seem to work out the best when the panels were really close together and I could just "spot weld" for a second or so. When I tried to run a little stitch it would blow a hole in the metal.

I'm running fluxcore wire. I don't know if I need to go with bigger wire or smaller wire or get a kit to run gas shielding with it. I know one thing, I definitely could have uses a small angle or die grinder.

I have a flange and punch tool but didn't use it. I tried to butt weld the pieces together. Maybe next time I'll double up the metal with the flanging tool. All advice is welcome. I didn't think it would be this difficult. I'm not that bad a welder!

First time, I'm sure I'll figure it out. Those dudes on TV sure make it look easy!

[pjoe]

Im in same boat as you. I tacked a piece on backside of weld to help. dont think anyone will ever see it when its finished. that should help with blowing through the metal. I also just spot welded about every inch or so.

[geezer]

Hey Arnie, welcome to the "International Brotherhood of Paper Thin Metal Welding"! This is the very reason why I bought a new welder capable of welding thinner material then my others could. A few years ago I bought a Millermatic 140 which helped a great deal but is still no match for a TIG welder. I've never used a gasless MIG, so don't know what that's like. After experimenting with your settings on a sample piece of metal of the same gauge there are still other ways to improve your results. You mention the flange tool, which is great if you are able to use it in the confines of the repair. It gives you more surface area for the weld to flow over without burning through an edge. In areas where butt welding is neccesary or prefered I use a variety of copper tools to serve as a backing. A few heavy duty copper chisels, drifts, punches and other implements I have collected over the years, get used for this purpose regularly. As long as you can use the copper for a backing and use a momentary on/off welding technique the weld won't be able to burn through and will not weld to the copper. Do not try to fill gaps much wider than twice the thickness of your wire. I keep a can of nozzle dip on hand for coating the copper. A little practice, some grinding, going over it again and you will eventually get the results you desire. Practice makes perfect. Good luck!

[240dkw]

Arnie: Solid core with a shielding gas is the way to go. As well, a small wire is better 0.023. If you can find it try ESAB "easy grind" wire. I seem to weld like I do drywall mudding. "stick 10 lbs of mud/wire on and sand/grind 7 lbs off. Like Ron said practice, practice.

Dan

As well, try this link, I found it helpful

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/thin-metal.htm

[ArnieTX]

Part of the problem is my lack of skilled cutting. When I cut out the original panel I did a poor sloppy job. It wasn't very straight in places and it made it hard to cut the patch to the same form. I'm still learning how to use my cutting tools. So far my big dewalt 18V sawzall was the easiest to use and keep a straight line. It just doesn't fit everywhere. Patience and practice, it's only metal right?

[ArnieTX]

And thanks for all the advice. I've been reading a lot about welding thin metal and I've come away with a better understanding on gas,wire size and heat-sink type tools to aid in the process.

[Ausgang]

Arnie: Solid core with a shielding gas is the way to go. As well, a small wire is better 0.023. If you can find it try ESAB "easy grind" wire. I seem to weld like I do drywall mudding. "stick 10 lbs of mud/wire on and sand/grind 7 lbs off. Like Ron said practice, practice.

Dan

As well, try this link, I found it helpful

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/thin-metal.htm

That's a perfect description of the process! It certainly pays to have the broom handy to sweep up all that ground-off material.

Last week I FCAW (dual shield) welded a new driver's side floor pan in on my car, and we used the technique shown in the video. I have to admit to having been reluctant to using that technique because it's not something that I had seen and we would never allow that (at work) for structural steel joining. One is bound to trap inclusions.

But, for a thin-gauge automotive application on a floor pan it was the way to go, and I'm glad my buddy showed me how to do it. I've seen some guys use but joints for these repairs, but we used lap joints because we figured they would be easier. Either way, I'm sure the result is much stronger than what we started with.

I have a friend who's restoring a '67 Cobra with missing doors, hood, trunk, etc. I take my hat off to him and anyone with the patience to do that much TIG welding. I've never done it, but have witnessed it at P&W's engine plant in CT. It's patience-building to say the least.

[ajmcforester]

It might help to get some metal of the same gauge and do some practice welding. It is an art that once you figure it out isn't all that hard to do a good job.

Get the gas for shielding, you got a lot of welding. The flux wire is good for a small shot job, and then not using the welder for months at a time that way you don't need a tank sitting all that time, but your car needs a lot of welding from what I see in the pictures. Always try cutting a little large and bring the piece down to proper shape and size. If your welding to an edge try keeping the new piece a little long by 1/16" or less and weld down the extra material.

Another thing if you distort a panel try the techniques for crush welding. When panels distort it usually is from the fact that welding pulls the metal in and shrinks the surface. If you use a hammer and dolly to flatten the weld it pushes the material out. Some of the high end restoration shops on panels they can get from to each side will just lay a continuous weld all the way down (no stiching) then crush the weld bring the panel back to shape. It can make a smoother surface and less grinding which always takes some of the adjacent metal.

[Z Speed]

Arnie, love following your Z build.

Question: Did you ever get your neighbors car running if so what was the problem. Do you still have the car or are you still working on it. Just interested what ever happened.....

Thanks....

Scott-

[ArnieTX]

Scott

I did, see this thread - http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38738

I also learned a little thread etiquette about keeping a thread on topic........ That lesson learned the hard way.

I bought a copper tool from Harbor Freight today to see if it will help in the welding process. I'm also looking into a gas setup for my welder. More to come and thanks for the advice so far. I'm still enjoying the process.