The two S20 warriors

[The C110]

After posting an image earlier it got me thinking, and im not sure if this question has been asked before but...

Of the two S20 powered models nissan released, which was the better track tool, the KPGC10 skyline, or the Z432R? Now i know the skyline was and still is more extensively raced [plainly due to a greater numberr produced], but the zed was always built as a 'sports car,' based on the average, unspecific definition. Whereas the GTR, was a hardcore refinement of a sports-saloon...

I know which car id back in a race. (=

Hope to hear peoples opinions on the matter,

Tom

[EricB]

For what it's worth, the first time I put my then nearly-stock Z on a set of scales I was real surprised to find out that the front to rear weight balance was very close to 50/50... As I recall it was something like 52-48... I don't know what I expected but I guess it wasn't that...

Aero wise, the Z has the more slippery shape (especially ZG of course) so provided identical power plants I would bet on the S30 over the 2 and 4dr Skylines...

I guess it could also come out to suspension and I do know the rear of the Skyline is set up differently than the rear of the Z - maybe someone here with more time on their hands can wax poetic about the pros/cons of either setup?

-e

[Alfadog]

Hm, good question. I always imagined the Z432-R would be the better of the two (same reasoning as Eric) but I dunno... you would have thought Nissan would race their best car more extensively...?

[HS30-H]

Technically speaking, you could say that more than two 'models' got the S20 engine:

*PGC10 Skyline GT-R ( the 4-door )

*PS30 Fairlady Z432

*PS30-SB Fairlady Z432-R

*KPGC10 Skyline GT-R ( the 2-door )

*KPGC110 Skyline GT-R

Out of these, Nissan only 'officially' raced the PGC10, KPGC10 & PS30-SB in 'Works' form.

But you have to ask the question, "Why does an auto manufacturer go racing?" before you can begin to deconstruct what Nissan did with these cars, and why.......

Like most auto manufacturers they went racing to promote their product, sell cars, and improve the breed as a spin-off. The greatest benefit from this would be to be seen to be beating the similar product of a rival in a straight race. For Nissan in the late 1960s and early 1970s, this meant beating Toyota. The hottest area of competition in the marketplace was for small family saloons and coupes, and this was consequently where racing was most hotly and seriously contested; Celicas against Sunnies, Corollas against Cherries.

The S20-powered Skyline GT-Rs and Fairlady 432-Rs raced in different classes, and like-for-like comparisons are in many ways difficult. The 432-R actually had very little direct competition in its class, and was often seen cleaning up in its class and taking the fight to the next class up ( usually consisting of dedicated sports racing cars such as Lolas and Chevrons ). After a year and a half of this in domestic racing, Nissan changed tack and installed LR24 engines in the 432-R bodies - taking them up into yet another class. Once again, they did well - but had little direct competition in-class.

The domestic race career of the S20-powered Skyline was longer, and therefore the cars became more developed. You would have to say that a full-house Works KPGC10 GT-R would level-peg a full-house Works PZR, but there would be a difference of the best part of a year of development between them.

For most of its domestic Works race career, the 432-R really had nothing much to race against in its class.

In a straight race, I think the Z would take it - but it would depend on the circuit and the driver too

[EricB]

Alan,

In your post you said some 432 bodies received LR24s late in their life. Are these smaller displacement versions of the LY cross-flow, or are they something else? And when you say that propelled the 432 into yet another class of competition can you elaborate as to who the Zs went up against then?

I've seen plenty of old pictures from Fisco and so on of 432s sharing the track with so much more exotic purpose built but I had always assumed that it was merely a case of several groups running at the same time (like JGTC300 is on track at the same time asJGTC500), I didn't think the Zs were actually in the same group as them and racing them... wow.

-e

[The C110]

Wow, a great depth of reply there from all, thats great! Personally, i had always thought that as the skyline had much more development behind it [raced for a longer period i thought], it would be the more honed track tool, however, in light of your fantastic comments alan, it would definetely be closer than i thought.

To address your first point though, Alan, im aware that nissan produced the five s20 powered models that you mentioned, however, i mentioned only the two most refined in terms of racing ability, of both z and skyline derivatives [the kpgc110 was never raced obviously so as far as racing in works trim goes we'll never know]. Having read over what i said now, i worded it quite poorly but hey, now you know.

I find the facts that you mentioned fascinating, though. Like eric i would like to know more about these LR24 motors that you mentioned - i know the kpgc10's were up against porsches in some instances, so as eric alluded, purpose built racecars would have been the next level up in the food chain for lr24 powered z432r's. What sort of power did these motors make, and how hard did they rev? In any case, once again thanks for your absoloute wealth of information!

Tom

[HS30-H]

Alan, In your post you said some 432 bodies received LR24s late in their life. Are these smaller displacement versions of the LY cross-flow, or are they something else?

"LR24" was Nissan's code for the Factory race versions of the L24 engine. Specs varied depending on what they were for, and when they were built. The LY crossflows came after these.

And when you say that propelled the 432 into yet another class of competition can you elaborate as to who the Zs went up against then?

We have to be careful here, as when the SCCN Factory race team put the LR24 engines into some of their PZR bodies, they could not call them 432-Rs any more. This was a delicate situation; essentially they were now neither fish nor fowl and Nissan had to be careful that they did not infringe the rules of each particular race, and each particular race class, that they entered.

The cars ( both S20 engined, and later on LR24 engined ) were entered in different classes for different races. I shall write down some examples in the next post.

I've seen plenty of old pictures from Fisco and so on of 432s sharing the track with so much more exotic purpose built but I had always assumed that it was merely a case of several groups running at the same time (like JGTC300 is on track at the same time asJGTC500), I didn't think the Zs were actually in the same group as them and racing them... wow.

Again, it depended on the particular race and the classes included in that race. Sometimes - at the larger race meetings - different races would be run for certain classes, and then a 'top of the bill' main event race with several classes running on track at the same time would be run.

[HS30-H]

Here are some examples of the first true head-to-head battles between 'Works' prepped and entered Skyline GT-Rs and Fairlady 432-Rs:

The first actual race for the Fairlady 432-R ( and incidentally, the World race debut for the S30-series Z ) took place on 18th January 1970 at the "All Japan Suzuka 300km" race ( at Suzuka Circuit ).

Works SCCN ace driver Moto Kitano showed well in qualifying, but was T-boned by another car in the race and retired ( with the car a write-off and Kitano lucky to escape injury ). The car was entered in the "R" class.

That race was won by a Porsche 908 ( also in the "R" class ), with a Porsche 910 following home in second position ( running in the "S" class ) with a PGC10 GT-R taking third position ( driven by Takahashi Kunimitsu and entered in the "T" class ).

Second 'Works' race for the PZR was the "All Japan Stock Car Fuji 300km Race" on 22nd March 1970.

Kitano brought the car home in second place behind the Porsche 910 of Hiroshi Kazato, with the other SCCN PZR of Masahiro Hasemi taking third. All the cars were in the same "S2" class. A brace of Fairlady 2000s ( SR311 ) followed them home ( also in the "S2" class ) and behind the Fairladies was a gaggle of Honda S800 racers ( in the "S1" class ).

The Works GT-Rs were in a different race ( for "T1" & "T2" classes ) that day. No head-to-head comparison between PZR and GT-R.

Third Works outing for the PZR was where it finally took a win, at the "Race De Nippon" event held at Fuji Speedway on 12th April 1970. I believe I am correct in saying that this was the first racing win of an S30-series Z worldwide.

Kitano and Hasemi took their SCCN-entered PZR to an overall and class win in the "GTS" class after 6 hours of racing. They covered 959km and 159 laps. Second place overall ( and first in the "TS3" class ) went to Kurosawa and Sunako in a Works-entered GT-R, which was two laps down on the winning PZR at the end of the race. Third place was also taken by a GT-R. The second SCCN PZR in the race retired.

That was pretty much the first time a PZR and GT-R had raced head-to-head to the finish of a race. The PZR came out on top.

[v12horse]

Wow, this is great stuff guys. I am just along for the ride. Here are my questions, Did the LY engine come out in 72? If so, were cars fitted with them called 240ZR's? What is a 240ZR? Thanks a lot for everyone participating. This is very interesting because this is the first time I have really heard about the home market circuit racers. One last thing, how big of a competitor was the Toyota 2000gt at the time?

Thanks again,

Ben

[26th-Z]

Relevant pictures

[EricB]

Ben

If you look through the gallery with "240ZR" you'll see pics of it come up - factory prep'ed ZG run by SCCN (Sports Car Club Nipon - if I'm not mistaken)

-e

[HS30-H]

Did the LY engine come out in 72? If so, were cars fitted with them called 240ZR's? What is a 240ZR?

One last thing, how big of a competitor was the Toyota 2000gt at the time?

Hi Ben,

LY was first seen late in 1971. First raced seriously in 1972.

'240ZR' was Nissan's internal code for their race cars using the HS30 bodyshell ( and usually the LR24 engine ) but it was not applied consistently in race entries - and therefore is not consistently noted in race reports. I guess we just have to accept that - typically for Nissan in that period - there were no hard and fast rules to this kind of thing. In effect, it was used more like a nickname.

The Toyota 2000GT was really at the end of its race career by the time the Z debuted. A few carried on racing in the hands of privateers, but they were out of their league against Nissan's factory efforts.

For example, in that "All Japan Suzuka 300km" event in January 1970 I mentioned above ( the first race for the PZR ), a lone Toyota 2000GT came home in 25th overall place ( although admittedly in a creditable second place in the "R" class ).

There were a few races where they went head-to-head, but the Toyota was at the end of its career whilst the Z was at the beginning of its own.