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For Interest Only (Toyota 2000GT)

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Doug,

Yep, that's the place! They have a nice red one for $249K (!!!)

I think I said they are in Mass, the are in Maine (duh!). Take a look at the detail photos of the red car - I never knew the 2000GT had the twin access panels like the Z. I knew there were some similarities from the history/relationship, but the car looks more like a Z up close than I originally thought.

Rich

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Here's a shot I took at last years Japanese Classic Car Show. Note that it is LHD. Toyota brought it out along with a couple of the other vintage Toyotas in the shot.

post-3797-14150798366974_thumb.jpg

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OPB: rdefabri

Take a look at the detail photos of the red car - I never knew the 2000GT had the twin access panels like the Z.

Looking at the interior of the red car, a couple of things drew my attention. The seat upholstrey looked very familiar as well as the door panel with the chrome strip. Coincidence?

post-10534-14150798368238_thumb.jpg

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I am surprised no one has created a replica of this car given it's relatively high profile in terms of collector cars.

My thoughts exactly. After having read the story of how pete Brock was brought in to 're-design' the Cobra Daytona Coupe for Superformance which allowed him to correct all of its deficiencies from the orgiginal design which was done with a telescoped deadline got me to thinking that a recreation of the Toyota 2000GT would be neat to see (and possibly own) if the price point could be close to reality.

As you have stated I also believe the early to mid '60's to be a high water mark in long nosed short deck sports cars; just think of the similarities of these cars:

Ferrari 250 SWB

Ferrari 250 GTO

Ferrari 275 GTB

Ferrari 365 (late '60's but fits the mold)

Jaguar E-Type

Toyota 2000GT

Datsun 240Z

Maserati Ghibli

Corvette C2 coupe

Aston Martin DB4

I think a nice modern day interpretation of that ethos is the new BMW Z4 M Coupe. I wish the 350Z had ended up looking a bit more like this. Hopefully the gods will smile and give Toyota the impetus to release the new Supra which has been rumored for a couple of years now.

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I forgot to mention that if you have the time a great book on the Toyota 2000GT written by Shin Yoshikawa deatils the history of the 2000GT in excruciating detail with a complete list of every chassis number produced and the location to which they were delivered. The text is in Japanese which may present a large hurdle but the book is well worth the asking price which is usually in excess of $100.

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........ The text is in Japanese which may present a large hurdle but the book is well worth the asking price which is usually in excess of $100.

Hi daddz:

The text in my copy, has both the English and Japanese on the same page in most cases. Factory Brochures - from Japan are presented and not translated, as are some Ad.'s from Japan - but for the most part the book is written in English.

Contains some very interesting chapters related to Carol Shelby and Peter Brock as well. While it is a relatively expensive book - it is worth every penny IMHO. 352 pages of Very High Quality Printing... and mostly filled with wonderful photo work...

FWIW,

Carl B.

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Carl,

I agree with you regarding the book as it is a wonderful piece of exhaustive research and attention to detail.

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Does anyone have an ISBN number? Easier to order / locate.

Bob - the 60's long nose/ short deck designs have always been amongst my favorites. A few other modern examples are the Jag XKR and Aston Martin V8 Vantage. It's a shame Jag punked out and equipped the XK with auto only, though.

I agree with you as well on the 350Z - it's too quirky. With the whole "retro" thing in autos (Mustang, Challenger, Camaro, et al), it would be nice to see a modern interpretation of the 2000GT with the new Supra. I tell you this, the last Supra, while butt ugly, had AWESOME tailights that in my mind evoked the old designs. It may be odd to get excited about taillights, but they just looked "right". Nissan missed the mark and I like the G35 coupe much better. Maybe they'll think harder with the next gen, but I doubt it with where their designs have been going.

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Rich,

here is your ISBN # 0-932128-10-6 (probably will not need the dashes but that is the way it appears on the back of the book. I ordered mine online from a bookstore in Tokyo named Lindbergh and it was at my house here on the east coast in three days! No extra charge for that quick shipping either.

Nissan seems to be going through another AMC blind styling department phase at the moment which reminds me of the days of the Datsun F-10! I had to walk down the 350Z path and buy it new just once to get the experience. I bought mine at the same dealer my father bought his '78 280Z 25 years before me in 1978. The same family still owns that dealership and the owner was there the evening i took dleivery of mine and he had a few laughs about it. I think he said something like i wish it didn't take 25 years to get a repeat Z car customer though!

In regards to your comment about the last gen Supra I didn't mind the styling although it was a bit bulbuous for my tastes. The rear wind was awful even though I probably would have bought the non turbo version anyways. The new Jaguar should have been offered with a manual transmission but the current clientele wouldn't go there.

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That should be 'Pete' rather than 'Peter' Brock in Carl's post. Just to distinguish between these two great men.

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That should be 'Pete' rather than 'Peter' Brock in Carl's post. Just to distinguish between these two great men.

Hi Stephen:

I know that a lot of times Automotive Writers have called him "Pete" or used "Pete Brock" and it would be a way of differentiating the two... However; since his Son and Wife refer to him as "Peter", I somehow got the impression that he didn't particularly like being referred to as "Pete".

Personally, I've always addressed him Mr. Brock and have avoided the use of "Pete"...

FWIW,

Carl B.

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Does anyone have an ISBN number? Easier to order / locate.

Hi Rich:

I ordered my copy directly from Kai Art International (Shin's company I believe). You can send an e-mail to:

KAI@Frazmtn.com

- to see if the Book is still available (it was a limited production product)... then Fax or E-mail an order. Of course you can use snail mail as well.

Kai Art International

P.O. Box 807

Lebec, CA 93243

The book was $100.00 plus $15.00 shipping and they accept Visa, MasterCard or Personal Check.

regards,

Carl B.

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Thanks!

Oh, and the Brock thing gets confusing - to clarify, we are referring to Pete Brock the V8 Supercar driver, not Pete Brock, the ascot-wearing, Cobra-designing, BRE 240Z, photographer-extraordinaire.

Either way, it's sad to hear. Godspeed...

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rdefabri, in this case we are referring to the 'BRE' man rather than the recently deceased Australian driver. I met the American Pete Brock along with his crew chief Mac Tilton at his shop in El Segundo, Ca. nearly 35 years ago and they were one of the main reasons I got into Datauns in the first place.

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Does anyone have an ISBN number? Easier to order / locate.

I quoted the ISBN number right back on post #4 of this thread, in February 2004...........

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Stephen,

Yes, I gotcha on that. When I first heard of the death of "Peter Brock", I thought of the BRE Peter Brock.

I believe that BRE Peter Brock was "promised" the original US 2000GTs, but instead they went to Carroll Shelby. I suppose that is one reason BRE Peter Brock got Datsuns....

Rich

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That reminds me of a blurb I read in Classic and Sports Car back in the late 1990's about a real 'barnfind' Toyota 2000GT that had been left to sit outside and bake in the sun. It was going to need a full restoration but even in its neglected state it was still beautiful. I always imagined playing the eccentric and collecting a car like that and not restoring it! I first got that idea when attending a British Car Day in Bowie some years back and in the spectator parking lot a Ferrari 250 Lusso had been parked and it had faded paint, cracked leather seats and dash and filthy Borrani wire wheels. It was simply beautiful to see it in that condition.

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I know it's just me....... but is there anyone else out there?

I have to admit that I am more than a little puzzled as to why a Toyota 2000 GT would be worth a quarter million dollars today in the Collector Market.

Granted that Toyota has become the superpower of the worlds automotive market and therefore developed a large following of very loyal customers. But Toyota could hardly be described as being known for it's Sports Cars. (yes they have built a few - and yes the Supra's are very good etc).

Yes the Toyota 2000 GT is a very limited production vehicle, and granted they are pretty rare. Rare however is not necessarily assurance of a high market demand nor value. Rare and Highly Desirable usually drive prices up.... but I'm puzzled as to who, or what group of people have such a burning desire to own one of the these oddities.

The Toyota 2000 GT was a valiant attempt and it certainly lead the Japanese Sports Car market in the mid 60's. Beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder; nonetheless we can discuss its styling in terms of esthetics, balance, harmony and period or era, as well as compare it to the Datsun 240-Z that followed.

The styling was sort of retro so to speak - back to the early 50's Jag.'s (flowing curves and bulbous fenders and side panels).... and somewhat conflicted in character. Was it British (Jag) or Italian (Ferrari) or Japanese? Smooth body lines abruptly interrupted by really ugly headlights and a huge nose, out of proportion to the rest of the car. Swooppy - YES, harmonious - NO.

The 2000 GT didn't really do all that well in the competition world - it was too heavy. It really didn't do well in the market place either - it was too expensive to manufacture, too slow and too cramped to sell well in the US in the mid 60's.

For that matter the Yamaha A550X of the same period, was a far better looking design - in my personal opinion.

Would anyone of us really pay a hundred grand more for a Toyota 2000 GT than a 68-72 Ferrari Daytona Coupe?? NOT ME...

Forgetting for a minute rarity... sitting a Datsun 240-Z beside a Toyota 2000GT... they are day and night. Where the 2000GT was heavy, costly to build, and conflicted in styling cues... the 240-Z was lightweight, inexpensive to build and one of the all time clean and beautifully styled GT's. Where the 2000 GT wasn't exactly a class leader on the track - the 240-Z dominated it's class for years and many are still being raced today. Where the 2000 GT caught the attention of the automotive press and buying public - although briefly. The 240-Z changed the US Sports Car market over-night and changed the image of Japanese Automobiles.

I know it's just me, but I just don't get it. There are only a few 2000 GT's left, because there were only a few built to begin with. Only a few built because it was not a very good design nor Sports GT in the first place. It had no significant impact on the worlds automotive markets.... so how can one be worth a quarter million dollars to anyone today? I could see maybe $45K to $55K..... just to own a rare oddity...

FWIW

Carl B.

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No, Carl, it's not just you. I sat in the one that Toyota bought out to last year's Japanese Classic Car Show. It was cramped, as you said, but nice considering the period it was built in. I found it to be asthetically interesting but not anything I would like to own but then again, I drive them rather than collect them and this car wouldn't work for me at any price. Sometimes too much is made of the low production number thing. That alone doesn't make a car valuable in my estimation. Not nearly in the same catagory but my daily driver is a 1979 Datsun 810 2dr. Not many of them were made either but no one cares today except for the handful of us that own them.

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I hate to dissent a little - the Toyota is STUNNING. A little less harmonious than an E-Type or contemporary Ferrari, but a nice looking car IMHO.

Is it worth $250K? NO, and that I agree with - especially when compared to the legendary Ferrari Daytona, which is better looking, has much better performance, almost as exclusive, etc. This is the same question/comment I made with respect to the mid-year Corvette coupes to E-Type coupes - the Corvette was made in much higher quantities, yet today is worth double the E-Type. There are obvious reasons for that, especially since many of the boomers that grew up wanting one are buying now, essentially ballooning the price. The E-Type convertible was the more desirable "E", so that's the car that's in higher demand and is quite similar priced to a mid-years 'Vette.

I would submit that folks like Keith Martin (who we have discussed before) and those like him are part of this. They tend to gush over cars like the 2000GT and can manipulate markets. In addition, not unlike in pro sports, there are some bidders that will pay whatever it takes to get an asset, effectively resetting the price expectation in the market.

As an example, the recent Barrett-Jackson auction with the Olds F-88 Concept generated $3M (!!!). A rare and beautiful car indeed, but $3M? I don't see it, but that was the "going rate". Ferraris in the 80s were much the same.

The question is - will the 2000GT bubble ever "burst"? I doubt it, given that most of the surviving examples are likely in good shape. It may mean good news for our Z's though, as invariably you can't talk 2000GT without at least a MENTION of the 240Z.

Time will tell, but if ANYONE sees one of these for $50K, let me know - I'd be interested in purchasing it ;)

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A few observations:

The car in question ( from 26th-Z's post ) was sold by Christie's at their Le Mans Classic sale on July 8th. This was of course in France, and the sale price ( inc. buyers premium ) was 176,250 Euros.

Let us remember that we are talking about a World market for these cars nowadays. Desirability means that the cars will cross continents to reach their buyers. The currency exchange rates will make certain cars look like a bargain to some, and extremely expensive to others. Let's not forget that.

Japan takes the lead in prices for certain old Japanese cars, and this will tend to pull up prices of similar vehicles in other territories. Unsurprisingly, many of the Toyota 2000GTs originally delivered to Europe have been making their way back to Japan over the last 20 years or so. The kind of people that are buying them in Japan are - in many cases - the type that could be compared to 'Baby Boomers' elsewhere. They might have fallen in love with the Toyota 2000GT in their youth, and now have the funds to buy one. They can justify their purchase by calling it an "investment". I know a couple of people in Japan who have bought them, and consider them to be good value for money as far as old cars go. Don't forget that the Japanese market has seen certain S30-series Z cars changing hands for the equivalent of over $100,000 US in the last couple of years. Rarity and desirability are key words here.

I think the high Japanese market values for RHD Toyota 2000GTs are certainly pulling the value of LHD versions up with them. There's never going to be a huge chasm between them, as there were never enough cars built.

But a straight comparison between a Toyota 2000GT and an S30-series Z? I don't see how a straight comparison is relevant to any discussion of market value on each. I'm sorry, but in terms of looks alone the Toyota makes the S30-series Z look very conservative. Having driven one ( an RHD Japanese-market version ), I can tell you that the Toyota was a beautifully balanced package that gave a tangible sense of occasion. It felt well engineered and very nicely put together. Driving it was an event. The only S30-series Zs that gave me anything like that feeling have been a pair of 432s. The standard L-series engined Z was like a saloon car in drag by comparison........

This discussion about 'market value' reminds me of property prices here in London. The house that I lived in until recently ( not mine - I just rented part of it, I hasten to add ) has just been put on the market at £2,750,000 STG. My former landlord bought it less than ten years ago for no more than £500,000 STG. It is a terraced Georgian ( 1799 ) townhouse in a central London street, with no parking place or garage, and almost no garden to speak of. Does it offer value for money when judged purely on its status as bricks and mortar, or as a dwelling? I think the answer is no! That 2.75 million could buy me ten times as much space and luxury elsewhere.

Desirability and exclusivity are what drives the market for such properties, and the same thing is true with the Toyota 2000GT. That kind of money is chump change to some people.

Alan T.

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Carl,

I think the value discussion of Toyota's 2000GT should involve some mention of the history of the motorcar industry as it relates to Japan and Japanese history as well. Following WWII and the myriad reforms that were undertaken in Japan which spilled into the 1960's (the country's plan was to increase the economic well being of all citizens as well as that of the country--very simplified explanantion here) Japan found itself able and willing to challenge itself in all fields of endeavour. Another key point to make is that Japan did not have to budget for its own military which left alot of potential on the table in terms of investment. So what am I trying to say? It is because of this pot of circumstance that a car such as the Toyota 2000GT should arise from a country that twenty years previous was in shambles.

The car is as much a symbol of fine motoring as it is to a lesser extent a symbol of national pride. Think of America's fascination with the Ford Mustang (40 years and counting--hell I even own one of these things) and it begins to make sense--at least to me. Take for example: a run of the mill Mustang circa 1966--it is taken from the assebmbly line with black paint and sent off to Shelby and then it is sent off to hertz and becomes a lowly and abused rental car the GT350H. Five years ago you could have bought this for about $50 to $65k and now they are approaching $200k!

Getting back to my point the Toyota 2000GT is valuable for a number of reasons to a wide swath of people. I just wonder when a replica in the idea of the Superformance Cobra Daytona Coupe is going to appear?

Toyota maybe the most conservative Japanese automaker but when the giant takes a step it will be a good value for money proposition. Think of all the 200k Toyota MR2's that run around these days. My own '87 Supra is another example--great build quality from the slightly thicker sheetmetal as compared to my '86 300ZX and an absolute refusal to rust like a Nissan.

Rich,

I agree with you 100% in regards to the values of the Jaguar E-type FHC. I think it is a prettier shape than the roadster and eminently more usable. I just hope the value chasm remains until I snatch one up!

Alan,

I think you have struck a fine point in regards to the comparison of a 240Z and the 2000GT. The Datsun took a formula and "cheapened" or "diluted" it to a price point that was sure to at least recoup Nissan's investment in tooling and such. A sportscar cobbled together out of saloon parts--sort of like British Leyland?

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