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Transmission Noise in 3rd Gear - F4W71A


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44 minutes ago, Dave WM said:

you have the 225 and 240 mm versions, the smaller IIRC had 6 bolt holes for the pressure plate, the larger (2+2 and ZX) has nine holes so you have to have a matching flywheel and pressure plate

 

17 minutes ago, Zed Head said:

The zcarsource description is wrong on the clutch kit, turbo and 2+2 are the same parts.  Can't exclude one and include the other.  But you might have the right parts.  The pictures match.  Looks like the 240mm clutch setup.  The parts that you said are on the car look like 240mm also.  So, odds are you'll be fine.  92mm is the critical measurement.

Thanks for the help, I just rolled under the car to check, I do have the 240mm setup because it has 9 bolts holding the pressure plate on. Sounds like from what you guys said this is fine to run on my car? I do intend to check the 92mm measurement before bolting the transmission back on, something I did not check the first time around. I know for a fact that I have the shorter Type A throwout bearing collar, have a hunch I will need to order one of the taller ones to hit that measurement.

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I think Zed and Dave answered your questions, but just to add to trivia info.

The 240mm and 225mm are the same weight 23lbs in all the 240Z, 260Z and 280Z/ZX.

That is not the case for the 720 truck. It has a much heavier flywheel and a very wide ratio gearbox.

The 225mm clutch and pressure plate will work on the 240mm flywheel, but the 240mm clutch disc and pressure plate will not work on the 225mm flywheel.

Most parts suppliers have the later 280ZX 225mm or 240mm pressure plate and clutch disc, and I believe you will have trouble finding a 225mm flywheel. Most suppliers will give you a 240mm flywheel simply because it suits both sizes and is the same weight.

If your old pressure plate was the original type then you have the original 240Z throw out bearing collar and you will need to find one to suit the 280ZX pressure plate.

The bearing on the collar is the same dimmension through the 240Z to 300ZX.

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Posted (edited)
56 minutes ago, EuroDat said:

The 225mm clutch and pressure plate will work on the 240mm flywheel,

I did not know this.  That, plus the equal weights, would explain why the manufacturers dropped the 225 only flywheel.  It's just not necessary.

I wonder why even call it a 240 mm flywheel.  Seems pointless.  7.5 mm extra friction surface diameter.

Edited by Zed Head
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@EuroDat thanks for the additional clarity, helps to clear things up a bit. I definitely have 240mm setup with the original shorter collar, it measures 34mm from the face of the bearing to the top of the ears. I removed my pressure plate today and measured the height on the forks, it is approximately 47.5mm. I was right around 10mm short on the 92 mm measurement from the ears to the face of the flywheel with the current collar, it looks like the 75-83 Z/ZX Coupe Non-Turbo collar should match up and get me very close to the 92mm. 

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Just a follow-up for confirmation.  What's being said is that the two outer holes of each set of three holes on a 240, are equidistant around the perimeter of the flywheel and match the 225 plate bolt pattern.  And the locating pins are the same.  Has this been confirmed?  I had both in my garage and never tried a 225 plate on a 240 flywheel.

And, you could even use a 240 pressure plate on a 225 disc and 225 flywheel.  The excess pressure plate would just hang over the edge of the disc.  And, you could let excess 240 disc hang outside of 225 parts.  

All these years and turns out all of the parts are interchangeable.

image.png

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@EuroDat another question for you in the ongoing rebuild saga, item #18 below is some type of shim or spacer that goes under the counter shaft bearing in the adapter plate:

image.png

image.png

 

I am coming up empty on any information on the OEM thickness for this shim, it is NLA. Do you happen to have one to compare or know offhand? I am pretty sure the one in place currently is not OEM, and neither is the bearing sitting on top of it (item 16), looks like a cheap replacement. Item 17 at the other end of the counter shaft on my transmission is a Nachi bearing which is probably the OEM bearing, I am replacing both with new Nachi bearings. Just want to make sure the shim is the correct thickness, mine is a rough cut piece of aluminum with measurements O.D. - 51.5mm, I.D. 34.2mm and thickness 2.65mm. 

Picture of the bearing and shim:

image.png

 

Also, if it helps anyone in the future the countershaft bearings are listed as NLA but with a little digging I found the Nachi replacements:

Item 16: Nachi 6205 C3 Open Bearing (25mmx52mmx15mm)

Item 17: Nachi 6304 C3 Open Bearing (20mmx52mmx15mm)

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That shim is for the cluster shaft end play. The 71B is slightly different but the priciple is the same. See attachment for the 71B set up.

You shouldn't need to adjust the shim thickness after replacing the bearings. It becomes critical when you change the cluster shaft of the transmission housing. The cluster shaft and housing have tolerances and the shim compensates for this. The bearings on the other hand are precision machined parts and don't have those tolerance issues.

It does not hurt to check. The bearing should have a small amount of end clearance. Ball bearings should not be pre-loaded. They are not designed for high axial tension like a tapered roller bearing.

 

Cluster shaft shim 01.jpg

Cluster shaft shim 04.jpg

Cluster shaft shim 02.jpg

Cluster shaft shim 05.jpg

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3 hours ago, EuroDat said:

You shouldn't need to adjust the shim thickness after replacing the bearings. It becomes critical when you change the cluster shaft of the transmission housing. The cluster shaft and housing have tolerances and the shim compensates for this. The bearings on the other hand are precision machined parts and don't have those tolerance issues.

That is my concern with this non-OEM adapter plate shim that seems to be in my transmission, I am worried the shim not being original might not be properly compensating for the shaft and housing tolerances. Could also be throwing off measurement "A" in your post for the end float. I also did not have a front shim at all when I disassembled my transmission, can't recall if I mentioned that earlier. I found a picture of the same adapter plate shim in my Haynes Manual, the I.D. looks much larger, which seems to support my theory that my current shim was something installed during a rebuild:

image.png

Wondering if I can "reverse engineer" the thickness by installing the counter shaft without an adapter plate shim and subtracting out the recommended range for end float from measurement "A" above. Any better suggestions come to mind?

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On 8/16/2021 at 5:46 PM, AnvilZ said:

@EuroDat another question for you in the ongoing rebuild saga, item #18 below is some type of shim or spacer that goes under the counter shaft bearing in the adapter plate:

image.png

@EuroDat correction on this post, #19 is the item I was referring to as the shim between the countershaft bearing and the adapter plate, the non-OEM aluminum spacer I showed in my picture was #19, not #18. I was looking at the countershaft backwards in the diagram, sorry for the confusion. 

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4 hours ago, AnvilZ said:

@EuroDat correction on this post, #19 is the item I was referring to as the shim between the countershaft bearing and the adapter plate, the non-OEM aluminum spacer I showed in my picture was #19, not #18. I was looking at the countershaft backwards in the diagram, sorry for the confusion. 

Pos#19 is not in the later 71B versions. Pos#18 (Pos#6 in the 71B 4 speed, see attachment) is used to correct the tolerances in the transmission housing.

Pos#19 is designed to remove any axial movement between the adapter plate and the adapter plate bearing. I don't know why they chose this method to remove end play. The point to all of it is the bearing should fit neat in the adapter plate housing without any forward / backward movement.

Screenshot_20210818-192057.jpg

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10 minutes ago, EuroDat said:

Pos#19 is designed to remove any axial movement between the adapter plate and the adapter plate bearing. I don't know why they chose this method to remove end play. The point to all of it is the bearing should fit neat in the adapter plate housing without any forward / backward movement.

Understood, I suppose my last question then is how important is it for the center line of the gears on the main shaft and countershaft to be perfectly aligned. I assume the thickness of #19 plays directly into this, and that you would want the mesh to be as aligned as possible. Here is a picture of my setup before disassembly, the center lines are a bit exaggerated but it illustrates the point, they did seem to be very slightly misaligned which could be due to the original shim being replaced by the thicker aluminum one. Which may also explain why there was no #18 in my transmission. 

image.png

I should be able to easily determine a thickness for #19 if I align the gear mesh. Wonder if misalignment has anything to do with my original issues.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Posted (edited)

@EuroDat @Zed Headhopefully I haven't exhausted your patience on this thread but I have an interesting update. After digging through quite a few old parts catalogues I actually found the OEM thicknesses for #19 from my previous post in a catalogue for the R3W71A of all things. Here are the part numbers from carpartsmanual: image.png

 

And the parts catalogue with thicknesses listed for those part numbers:

image.png

 

I believe I mentioned it already, but the current shim #19 in my transmission has a thickness of 2.65mm, where the OEM range given is 0.40-1.00mm. This brings me back to the gear mesh alignment question, here is another shot of my gear alignment with the 2.65mm shim installed and the new adapter plate bearings in place: image.png

Seems to me the effects of the thicker shim are most evident on the second gear mesh, pretty easy to tell since the countershaft gears are at a fixed distance as part of the shaft itself. I also noticed on third gear where I drew the blue arrow that the gear teeth are very close to the synchro assembly teeth. I see no chipped teeth or damage but feels like my thicker shim pushes those too close to each other, maybe some rubbing there caused the noise I heard?

My current thought process is to put a 1.00mm shim in for #19, reassemble and check measurement "A" from post #57. What confuses me a bit is the F4W71A seems to be the inverse of the F4W71B when it comes to shim #18. Notice above only one part number is given for #18 on the A type. Still searching for an OEM thickness for that part (32224-20100), but that must have been one of the changes from A to B type. Thoughts? 

 

Edited by AnvilZ
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Type A definitely looks different than type B.  I really don't know much about either.  I did find your part number under the Sports pages though.  You probably did too.  You might see if there's another old Datsun forum out there somewhere.

Your idea of trying a 1.0 mm shim makes sense.  Can't hurt.  Might be the guy before you was in a hurry or just didn't have the tools to do it right.

https://www.carpartsmanual.com/datsun/sports-1965-1970/power-train/transmission-shaft-gear/5-speed-(warner)/20

Here's the link that you copied the numbers from.

http://www.carpartsmanual.com/datsun/Z-1969-1978/power-train/transmission-gears/4-speed/to-aug-71

And for those who want to see the change...

http://www.carpartsmanual.com/datsun/Z-1969-1978/power-train/transmission-gears/4-speed

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Im out for a couple of hours, but when I get back Ill post what you need to do. It's allbecoming clear to me now. Looks like a PO has made a shim and didn't understand what shim Pos#18 was doing. Now the geomentry is allmessed up

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The alignment on those gears in your photos is a little off. Thank you for posting the information about the different sizes for the #19 shim. That cleared up some things I couldn't understand.

With yhe 71B the bearing in the adapter plate is fixed and you remove end play by adjusting shjm thickness in #18 located in the front bearing assembly cover.

The 71A does not have the front bearing assembly cover. Instead it has the bellhousing with a fixed size shim. (And because it is a fixed size they won't mention the thickness anywhere). You adjust endplay by changing a shim in the adapter plate/main bearing retainer plate. You do this before fitting the rear extension housing.

If I was doing this, and because finding the #18 thickness will be very hard, I would assembly it with the home made 2.65mm shim and check end play. If the end play was correct then I would have a 1.65mm shim made for #18 and a new 1.00mm shim for #19 to replace the home made shim. Or a 2.00mm #18 and a 0.65mm #19, just keep #19 in the range of sizes Nissan supplied.

I'm not sure if the "A" reference will work on the 71A. That is why I would check end play with the old shim.

When done it will move the cluster shaft back and align the gears.

 

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16 minutes ago, EuroDat said:

If I was doing this, and because finding the #18 thickness will be very hard, I would assembly it with the home made 2.65mm shim and check end play. If the end play was correct then I would have a 1.65mm shim made for #18 and a new 1.00mm shim for #19 to replace the home made shim. Or a 2.00mm #18 and a 0.65mm #19, just keep #19 in the range of sizes Nissan supplied.

I'm not sure if the "A" reference will work on the 71A. That is why I would check end play with the old shim.

This was my exact thought process, although looking back through the 71 FSM last night that Zed Head pointed me to earlier in this thread Nissan does seem to suggest that #18 is not a fixed thickness and uses the same "A" measurement for end play. This is definitely for the F4W71A: 

 image.png

Confusing. Now I am wondering if carpartsmanual.com has #18 and #19 backwards? Based on the FSM it seems #19 may be a fixed thickness, which I still doubt I will be able to find, and #18 is variable. It even gives the same range of thicknesses for #18. 

Given that I likely won't be able to determine an OEM size for #19, I am now thinking I will try to align the mesh as much as possible and use that to determine a thickness for #19. Maybe 1.65mm there and a 1.00mm for #18 as you suggested.

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Do you have the manual where your screen shot came from? Would be nice to add it to the manuals database on this site.

Looking at the figure TM-68 the front shim #18 is the adjustable shim like the 71B and it should be somewhere between 0.40 and 1.00mm.

You now have no shim #18 in the front bearing and a 2.65mm shim in #19. I would still check the end play and if the end play is good make a shim for #18, preferably closer to 1.00mm and deduct it from #19.

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11 minutes ago, EuroDat said:

Do you have the manual where your screen shot came from? Would be nice to add it to the manuals database on this site.

I actually pulled it from this site, Zed Head pointed me here https://www.classiczcars.com/files/category/11-240z/. It is the 1970 FSM uploaded by CanTechZ. Page 57 is the one I referenced. 

13 minutes ago, EuroDat said:

You now have no shim #18 in the front bearing and a 2.65mm shim in #19. I would still check the end play and if the end play is good make a shim for #18, preferably closer to 1.00mm and deduct it from #19.

I will check the end play after reassembly. If it is good Ill go with 1.65mm for #19 and 1.00mm for #18. If not Ill likely add additional thickness to #19 up to maybe 2.00mm. Can't imagine the total end play would exceed 3.00mm. 

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