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Mike

Rally anyone?

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Those two cars you mentioned we have seen at the former placed pictures by Rodd from Australia. Scroll upwards and you find them.. Great stuff indeed. Always thought there gone!

I really like to see more of your crawling under the car pictures!! I’m trying to give my car the looks of a MC rally no5 car therefore it would be very interesting to have a look at you pictures.

I personally visit Kevin Bristow last year to have a look at his former rally car. He’s very dedicated to get that car on the road again. And he will I’m sure about that.

Regards,

Guus

Z-point

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Hello Guus, How do you do?

I have heard about your Monte Carlo rally Z project, and in fact had seen pictures of it. Glad that you are doing something that not many people try to do.

I have about 300 photos of the Works rally Zs that were on temporary display at the Nismo HQ in Omori, Tokyo last year. They let me go all over them ( once we found the keys ) and let me have full access - so I could sit in them and pretend to be Rauno and Edgar on the stages..........

Tell me what areas of the cars you are particularly interested in and I will try to select some of the best shots.

I also have a big archive of period books and magazines ( particularly Japanese race magazines like Autosport and Auto Tecnic ) which contain great articles, as well as a lot of contemporary Japanese stuff like NOSTALGIC HERO and OLD TIMER magazine. I am sure that you have a copy os "NOS HERO" which has just beautiful photography.

Kevin Bristow is a good friend of mine and I have been helping him to research his own ex-Works 1971 RAC Rally 240Z. He is making an absolutely fantastic job of it, and it is progressing well.

I actually have some performance parts that would suit your Monte Carlo replica well - I import a lot of stuff from Japan for my own cars as well as for the Rally and Circuit racers in the UK. I can get some parts that you might have thought were not available any more. Let me know what you need.

Have you seen any pictures of Vince Budd's Monte Carlo Rally Z replica from here in the UK? He has made a pretty good job too, and has used some parts from me quite recently too. His 4.6 R200 LSD will make a big difference to his stage times I think!

Stay in touch, and tell me what you want to see details wise on those photos.

All the best,

Alan Thomas ( London, UK - "HS30-H" )

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Hi Alan,

Great car you have! Reminds me at properly the first Z car I saw from….. Tamiya.

I still have the idea we have met in Holland at the racetrack in Zandvoort (‘90), is this correct? Did you ever have a red 240z very low a very fast?

Have you seen me latest picture attached to this club, http://www.240z.org/photopost/index.php?photo=171&size=big

I’m still busy to make the final touch; decals of Seiko, Dunlop and NGK. My friend and I are creating replica decals of all three firms. Sure I have seen the Z car of Vince; I visited Billing last summer and met him over there. Problem is his car is a 260Z! Before we went to Billing we visited Kevin at his garage. What a great place to visit. It looked a bit like my place, all sorts of parts in all corners, great. But what a dedication to make that historic rally car compatible again.

I envy you because you had the opportunity to visit the rally twins and sit in them as well!!

The first thing in my mind was “I want all of the 300 pictures”, the second and latest thing in the same mind was I stick to that. If that is a problem then I consider taking less but otherwise I very much like to pay for all 300! I do have a copy of Nostalgic Hero no.260 where the twins are being described, very nice pictures. I always thought Nissan had nothing to do with history but in on the contrary they do! After the cars where displayed I mailed my man at Nissan Japan to take action in finding those two. But he was too late, they where already brought back to the ‘museum’. And now you are coming with an offer, it’s amazing.

You mentioned parts, what kind of parts are they? What I like to have are factory wheels, I know they exist but they are expensive! For the rest tell me.

Regards,

Guus

Z-point

:D

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Originally posted by rodd

I started building the Fujimi 1/20th Lemans 240z and would love pics of the original if anyone has any.

Love to find out more details of the LeMans 240Z.

All I know is that it was an ex rally car, ran at LeMans twice, finishing one year and crashing the other I think.

Thanks Rodd

Hi Rodd,

this all what I have at this moment, you liki it?

Guus

Z-point

:D

post-1340-14150791975222_thumb.jpg

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Originally posted by Z-point

Hi Rodd,

this all what I have at this moment, you liki it?

Guus

Z-point

:D

stupid off me wrong picture

sorry

Guus

Z-point :(

post-1340-14150791975313_thumb.jpg

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Hi Guus,

Thanks for your response.

That certainly wasn't me that you met at Zandvoort - I was living in Japan in the early '90s. The last time I went to Zandvoort was probably about 1976, but yes I did have a 110 Red '73 UK-spec. 240Z that was pretending to be a Fairlady 240Z with lots of period option stuff ( factory headlamp covers, mesh grille, 8-spoke RS Watanabe wheels, all emblems Japanese-spec. etc. etc. ). That used to be my daily driver, but I sold it on.

Regarding the photos of the Works Rally cars that I took at the "Omori Factory" in Tokyo - well, copying 300-odd photos is going to be a pretty arduous task, not to mention expensive. At least half of them are of the Safari car, rather than the Monte car ( although I would have thought you would be interested in both ). Far better for us to narrow down the areas that you are most interested in, so that I can edit it a bit. Bear in mind that they are pretty precious to me, and simply passing all of them on to you will be a bit of a wrench. This kind of thing is not easy to get hold of, and I did a real lot of leg-work ( not to mention spending a lot of money ) to visit Japan and see the cars. Nissan hardly ever lets the "General Public" see them, so short of a "Royal Audience" by command I had to wait until they came on show to all. I will scan up some tasters for you and post them below later tonight.

Love those pictures of the Le Mans cars above. I have been trying to understand the truth and all details about those cars for quite a while now. Are both those photos old ones from the period in question? I heard that the second-year car was still in existence in the Poitiers region of France, but it must surely have been rebuilt or re-shelled from the crashed car? I think they were a little creative with their entry for the first year, as the car was described as something different to what its Japanese registration plate number said it was........... Do you know anything about all this? I am trying to establish whether that car really was an ex-Works rally car, and if the two cars that raced at Le Mans in successive years really were in fact one car ( meaning it changed from a 240Z into a 260Z - as I say, I think they were a little creative ). I would love to hear what info. you have, and maybe that would be a good trade for some photos!

As for parts for your Monte Carlo Rally replica - what do you need? If you want to go the whole hog it will cost a lot of Yen. I have replicas of the "Rally Mag" wheels that were originally made by Kobe Seiko for Nissan, however they are cast aluminium rather than forged magnesium ( to keep costs down and last longer ). However, they are REALLY expensive - and I mean REALLY. I also have a pair of excellent replicas of the factory bucket seats ( the ones that were manufactured for Nissan by Ikeda Bussan ). The Monte car that you are replicating had a pair of these, but some of the Safari and RAC Rally cars had a reclining version for the navigator. These seats are also MEGA expensive. I also have some hard mechanical parts, such as R200 LSD Diffs. ( 4.1, 4.3, 4.6 & 5.1 available - no 4.8 ) although you will find that the Monte cars on that year had an R180, and these are too easy to break so I don't recommend them. Some of the factory Rally cars used the R192 Diff. ( not the R190 - that is different ) which was fitted to the Z432 and Skyline GT-R - but they are so expensive that there is no point, and you can hardly see it anyway! I have MK63 4-pot front brake calipers, Factory Rally struts / legs ( F & R ), and the Datsun Competition steering wheel. I am making a replica of the 100 Litre fuel tank ( with the corresponding "flat floor" in place of the spare wheel well ) for my project 432R replica - and lots of details on the shell were similar. In fact, you could call some of the factory Rally cars a 432R ( PS30-SB ) shell with an L-series engine installed. In essence, that's what they were - but obviously with all the special Rally bits. Many of the Japanese circuit race parts are shared with the Rally cars.

I could go on about all this stuff forever, and bore 99% of the audience to death! If you want to correspond about it, just let me know. Now that I have my new scanner installed ( bought today! ) I can scan a few photos and put them up for you. In the meantime, here's a taster of the Rally Mag wheels and the Ikeda Bussan seat replicas;

See you,

Alan Thomas ( HS30-H ).

post-2116-1415079197548_thumb.jpg

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Guus,

Starting to get the hang of my new scanner now.

Here are some photos as a taster of the Works Monte Carlo Rally Car at Nismo's HQ back in December.

They are the engine bay, Rauno's "office" , and the Jacking Point on the left-hand side sill. You might need to replicate the jacking point for your replica car...............

See you again soon,

All the best,

Alan Thomas ( HS30-H )

post-2116-14150791975702_thumb.jpg

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Guus

Thanks for the pic. Do you know if they are the same car?

The Fujimi Kit is of the No 73 car. seems to be a reasonabley accurate model except for not having a G nose. Have attached a couple of pics of the box.

HS30-H There is a pic of the No 72 LeMans car in the book "The Z series Datsuns by Ray Hutton" It shows it with a the Number Plate TKS 33 6466 and points out this was an ex factory 260Z rally car as used in the 1974 RAC rally.

Great info and great pics. Your definitly not boring me. Keep the pics and info coming. My favorite car is the 73 Safari winning car. I'm building the Tamiya 1/12th scale model of it. Any info and pics would be greatly appreciated.

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Heres the 1975 LeMans car.

I believe the rego is TKS33 su 6466

post-1516-1415079197643_thumb.jpg

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Heres the pic of the 260z with the same rego in the 1974 RAC Rally, also taken from Ray Huttons book.

post-1516-14150791976586_thumb.jpg

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Alan,

Are you single, would you like to get married?

That would be probably the easiest way to get hold of these items ;-))

ROFL

Indeed great stuff but what is a lot of Yen’s?

And I don’t want to rob you from you’re pictures I’m trying to find a way to get copies of it. Do you still have the negatives? Or otherwise, these days it’s possible to make new photos from the originals! The cost is all mine. And yes, I’m also interested in the rally car as well.

If you prefer to go private, the mail address is z-point@worldmail.nl.

I’ll keep it short this time I have to clean myself and prepare the trip to my mother, Mothers days you know!

Until later,

Guus

Z-point

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Hi Guus and hi Rodd,

Well Guus, I AM single ( but "shacked up" ) so you can't really marry me - but what colour hair do you have????!!!! Nah, even if you marry me I won't give you the parts......

Seriously though, those Kobe Seiko Rally Mag replicas are REALLY expensive in Japan. I guess you are using Euros in Holland now, but in Pounds Sterling they work out at £300 EACH. That's the RETAIL price in Japan too - so you need to add the cost of shipping and duty too. That makes for a very exclusive set of wheels - but if you are aiming at making an accurate replica of the Monte Carlo car then I guess nothing else will do....... just don't look my way if you want cheap prices. Its just as expensive for me too. The prices of parts on my ZG made my hair turn grey and then start falling out.

I shall pick up on this with you privately - thanks for your e-mail address.

Rodd!

Thanks for the posts about the Le Mans cars, and glad to hear that you are also into the Works rally cars. Did you actually know that Nissan also still own the '73 Safari rally-winning car? They hardly ever show it ( it is in pretty-much the same condition as it finished the Rally ) and they keep it in Yokohama with the other two cars that they had on show at the NISMO HQ in December.Maybe one day they will make a proper museum, and you can get to see your favourite-ever Z in the flesh.

I have not seen that Fujimi kit of the '76 Le Mans car before ( despite having a lot of their other Z kits that I have never made ) and was interested to see that they made the kit without the aerodynamic front end on it - but with all the "overfenders" and the big rear wing. Notice also the BMW CSL "Batmobile" style mini-spoiler above the rear hatch glass. Very interesting. Wonder why it was not as accurate as it should have been?

Thanks for the pictures of "6466" in Works rally car guise ( as driven by Harry Kallstrom ). I have some other photos of the car too. This car was a full-house,close to final development of the Works rally cars - with Injected "LY" Crossflow engine, 110 Litre fuel tank, vented rear disc brakes and the big diff. It was driven by Kallstrom on the '74 TAP Rally in Portugal, and then by Cahal Curley in the '74 RAC Rally in UK. Then it passed into the hands of Englishman Chris Sclater for a semi-Works supported career. PLEASE NOTE THAT AT THIS TIME IT WAS LEFT-HAND-DRIVE.

Hence my doubt about the true identity of the car that was entered at Le Mans in '75................. That car seemed to have suddenly been fitted with the whole rear panel from a "240Z" ( including the lights and trim pieces ) and had miraculously changed from LHD to RHD. This makes me wonder if indeed it REALLY WAS "6466" - or if the Japanese registration identity plates had been switched onto an earlier car in order to legalise its entry at Le Mans????? I certainly do not recall hearing that the '75 Le Mans car had rear disc brakes and a fuel-injected "LY" Crossflow engine - which was what "6466" was fitted with in its Rally career. And why would they change the whole rear panel to an earlier type? Surely if it was damaged they would have easily been able to find the correct "260" type panel and lights??? What about the ( if I am indeed right ) conversion from LHD to RHD? Does it make sense?

Certainly, Hans Schuller had good contacts with the factory and the Works Rally team staff - so he would have been well connected enough to pick up a "tired" ex-Works rally car and modify it for Le Mans. Schuller did some circuit racing in Japan for the Works team, and was apprently no slouch despite the fact that he was a navigator for Edgar Herrmann.

I really wonder whether the '74 Le Mans car was in fact an ex-Works 240Z Rally car - rather than "6466" which was a 260Z. Maybe they needed to pull some kind of switch in order to get the car into its class at Le Mans, and to "give" it the identity of "6466" helped this? The most fascinating thing in all this is to find out what actually happened to "6466" and what was the identity of the seemingly ex-Works 240Z Rally car that they put "6466"s identity on for the Le Mans entry?

I was also wondering if the '75 & '76 Le Mans cars were in fact the same car ( this does not seem to be mentioned anywhere ) and if the '76 Le Mans car still exists, despite the sadly fatal crash? If it did exist, it would be possible to pin down its true identity and clear this mystery up somewhat.........

Did you guys notice how few of our American friends seem to be interested in the Le Mans and Works Rally cars? I have not noticed many posts from them ( despite Mike starting this thread ) and I wonder if thet are tuning in or not? Is anyone out there?! Hope that you are not bored, because we are having a great time with this.......

More on this soon, all the best for now,

Alan Thomas ( HS30-H ).

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I will see what is suposed to be THE LE MANS car on saturday 25 may. The owner will bring it to a race track near Poitiers. They have a Le Mans Revival show. I will ask as many questions that I can, take all the shot I can and try like mad to have a run in it...

I will check the numbers if I can, so we will know what really is this car!

I will keep you informed anayway, Fred

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Fred

Can't wait to see your pics.

Does anyone know how damaged the car was in its accident, or what caused it?

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Boys not up to your standard of replicas, put these stripes and signwriting on my car temporarily for the Datsun Nationals last year just for some fun. Rip off of a famous racing Nissan in Australia. Any clues?

post-1516-14150791976771_thumb.jpg

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Hi Z-rallye-freaks,

having spent a week on rainy Mallorca island I'm positively surprised how the discussion went on. Alan is right, it's a pity that our american friends are in a different world when talking about rallying or works or semi-works sportsZcars. So it's within us antipodes (Australia/NZ and Europe) to find out and to publish to our american friends how these cars performed in Kenia, at the Bandama, in Australia, Maroc, Greece, Portugal , Monte Carlo, in GB, Canada or anywhere else in the wide world, what their technical highlights and who the drivers were. I myself built up a rallyeZ to my personal needs and possibilities based on the FIVA standards and the original group 3 and group 4 homologation. Unfortunately I crashed the car and at the moment I built up an interim solution just to have something to compete with on a regional level, having my wife as navigator (which makes weekend life easier). My daily driver is a 300 ZXturbo and I also have a nice 280 ZX, very original with one main exeption, it has a catalytic converter now to meet the government and tax regulations here in Germany.

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Hi all,

This is turning into a really entertaining and informative thread isn't it? Its a bit of archaeology, and much more interesting than all those "How fast will my Z go if.....?" threads isn't it!?

Rodd, I like your paint job - and your car looks nice and "simple". Really pure and nicely in period feel. Nice one.

Doehring, Sorry to hear that it rained for your holiday. Two weeks ago I was in Italy and it POURED down with rain every day. There were really bad storms over the whole central European area, and I got really wet. Best if you stay at home and stay tuned to this thread - its looking quite good.

Fred, sounds like you are on an exciting mission to see what claims to be the '76 Le Mans car this weekend. I think that you might like to get a good look at as many details as possible, but particularly these;

CHASSIS NUMBER ( is it an RS30 or an RLS30, or is it an HS30 or HLS30? ). As I mentioned before, "6466" was definitely an RLS30 chassis number - a Left-Hand-Drive European-Spec. "260Z". Strangely, the pictures of the '75 Le Mans car in period show a RHD car with the back end ( tail lamps and back panel / trim ) from a "240Z". This makes me think that it was not the same chassis as the Works Rally car chassis that the number "6466" was originally placed on. Of course, you are going to see what claims to be the '76 Le Mans car - which I guess does not necessarily have to be the same car as the '75 Le Mans car - but in my personal opinion I think they used the '75 car in '76 too.

ENGINE - this does not prove anything, but as far as I am aware the original engine on "6466" was an "LY" Crossflow, and possibly on the Nissan "ECGI" injection system. I believe that when the car passed into the hands of privateer rally driver Chris Sclater he used it with both the original engine and then a more normal L-26 bored up to 2.8 or 2.9 and with 50mm Mikuni carbs. It will be interesting to see what engine the car has now.

BODY - again, they would have modified the car for Le Mans - so this does not necessarily mean anything, but ALL of the Works Rally Zs had a "Flat Floor" at the rear. The spare-wheel well was removed and a ribbed panel was fitted flush with the surrounding floor. This enabled a much larger fuel tank to be used - initially a 100 Litre tank ( just like the PS30-SB tank ) and then a 110 litre tank. Later still, I believe a 120 Litre tank was also used. These big tanks and their flat floor are one of the things that quickly identifies Works competition Z cars.

It would be also interesting to look for evidence of Rally jacking point mountings, Sump Guard mountings, and evidence of the "Works" type roll cage - with two vertical bars from the roof hoop down to the floor. These were bolted, not welded into the car. However, I would have thought that the Le Mans regulations would have forced them to modify this.

Look for evidence of the fuel-filler in a cutout on the rear hatch, with a "Monza" style flip-down filler cap in a kind of box. The original fuel filler on "6466" was this type - unlike the earlier Works 240Z Rally cars which used the original location. They also changed the venting for the fuel tank, by putting vents in the acrylic glass of the quarter window. All the plastic windows on the Works cars were stamped with a small "NISSAN" logo on the interior side.

Apart from that, check just about EVERYTHING else!!!

The current owner might believe it to be the ex-"6466" body, or he might not. The car might have been re-shelled after the accident in '76, and in fact the '75 Le Mans car might not have actually been "6466" at all ( but I believe it WAS an ex-Works Rally 240Z, rather than a 260Z ).

This is like a Chinese puzzle, but it is fascinating....................

Sorry for the usual long-winded post.

HS30-H.

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Fred!

Don't worry too much about checking out that car at the "Le Mans Revival" event on Saturday. When I saw the photos that you posted ( the silver car ) I realised that I had seen this car before. It was featured in a two page article in the December 1998 issue of NOSTALGIC HERO in Japan.

In the article, the owner ( Mr Pierre Bourgoin ) describes it as a genuine "Competition Model" - but he does not say that the car was actually the one ( or ones? ) that ran at Le Mans in '75 and '76.

What he says is that the car used to belong to Mr Andre Haller, the entrant and owner of the '75 and '76 Le Mans entries, and was the "sister car" to the one that crashed at Le Mans in '76 - sadly killing Mr Haller. He says that his car ( chassis number HLS30-39710 ) is a 1971 model car - one of two that were imported to Germany in 1972, and then brought to France presumably by Mr Haller.

So, in this article he is not claiming that his car actually competed at Le Mans - but he IS saying that it is a "Competition Model".

This seems to be a rather fanciful claim, as the only "Competition Model" S30 cars that were brought to Europe in the early 1970s were the factory "Works" Rally cars. These cars were based on special bodyshells that incorporated many design features and details from the PS30-SB ( 432-R ) and were in fact a kind of hybrid 432-R with an L-series engine and the special parts for Rallying. The Works circuit-race Z cars in Japan were initially based on the 432-R ( with the S20 engine ) and within a year they had partially switched to the the L-series engined cars, but still using many details from the PS30-SB bodyshells. These cars were called "240ZR" by the factory, and later developed into the Group 4, 5 & 6 racers with the full aerodynamic kit and the "LY" Crossflow engine on injection.

I don't know what Mr Bourgoin thinks makes his car a "Competition Model" - but perhaps he is under the impression that the car is something that it is not. As far as I can see from the article and the photos, the car does not seem to use any parts that would identify themselves as "Works" competition parts - let alone have the special body of an ex-Works Rally car or factory circuit race car. It even seems to have the normal S30-type fuel tank ( and none of the Works competition cars were fitted with those ). It does have Mikuni carburettors - but then so do many cars. These were available from many many sources - and Sanyo even offered a kit to fit them on the car when it was launched in 1969.

Perhaps Fred you should ask Mr Bourgoin what the history of his car is, so that you can hear it from him in person. If you have heard that this car is one of the cars that ran at Le Mans, and it is just hearsay, then all well and good. However, if Mr Bourgoin is claiming that his car IS one of those cars - then he needs to prove it. It seems to me that anyone doing this would need to make sure that he knew ALL about the factory race cars and the parts that they used, otherwise he would come unstuck very quickly. Even calling your car a "Competition Model" needs qualification, if the person saying it is inferring that it is some kind of official factory-built or sanctioned model..................

We must all be careful of people who might be interested in talking up the history of their car in order to make it worth more money, or fooling people who don't know any better.We should share information to make us better armed to fight against bogus claims and fancy stories.

Here is a scan of the article about the car;

All the best,

HS30-H

post-2116-14150791979607_thumb.jpg

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It's nice to have you around, this is very educative! I will talk to the guy and report his word in the most honest way I can. We will find out. He is keeping is car anyway so I don't think that he is after money and want to add value to a fake, at least not deliberately. Still, it’s a nice car and I will have a nice time watching her as see will dance around on Le Vigeant race track. It’s a too rare occasion to see a mean Z around here…

Looks like we started a planetary enquire here, let’s find out and register all the Famous Z cars, and maybe you could start to put down a nice listing of the famous Z you know, where they are, who they belong to, history past and so on…

…what do you think; I hope it wouldn’t create a speculation war on our beloved cars.

Fred

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Hi friends,

as far as I know the Le Mans car that Hans Schuller, the Safari Co-driver of Hermann and Safari winner, brought to Le Mans in 1975 was originally an Ex-Safari car. They became 23rd in the general classement and 1st in the class up to 2.5 litres.

Rolf

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Hello Doehring,

We are probably getting nearer the truth now, and it seems that we are uncovering a little bit of creative resourcefulness on the behalf of the '75 Le Mans entrant ( commonly known as "cheating"! ). The car at Le Mans in '75 was wearing a Japanese registration plate with the numbers "6466" which was originally on a LHD 260Z Works Rally car that never competed in the Safari Rally. If the car was in fact an ex-Works Safari Rally 240Z, then the "6466" number must have been a switch.......

In my experience, if somebody is talking about cars that have some Works competition rally history then they almost invariably say that it is "ex Safari". If you added up all the cars that were "ex Safari" it would probably come to a couple of hundred!

I think that this happens because the Safari Rally was one of the Z car's most successful events. They won outright twice with the Z, and that tends to get remembered better than a third on the Monte Carlo or even a win on the Welsh Rally................

I think it seems to be becoming clear that the Japanese registration plate that the car was wearing at the '75 Le Mans should not have actually been on it. The car that entered Le Mans in '75 may well have been an ex-Works Safari Rally 240Z that Hans Schuller sourced from the Works rally team, but they obviously needed to have some kind of identity switch because of homologation and eligibility rules. I think this must be why they gave it the Japanese registration number ( and presumably some paperwork to back up the identity was shown to the ACO ).

If that '75 Le Mans car was indeed an ex-Safari Rally car ( it was certainly not one of the two that won the event, as they are both still extant and belong to Nissan in Japan ) then it would have led a very interesting and varied life! That would be another statistic for the record books; Safari Rally AND Le Mans history!

All the best,

HS30-H

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