g260 Posted April 1, 2003 Share #1 Posted April 1, 2003 Went to the Sydney Ferrari club drive day at Wakefield Park about 200km from Sydney last Sunday and amongst other cars there was a 365 Daytona. The similarity in shape with the Z is amazing. Those Italians are very good at copying!! At least I had the right number which made some of the Ferrari drivers envious. g260 http://www.wakefieldpark.com/site/frameset.cfm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfadog Posted April 1, 2003 Share #2 Posted April 1, 2003 Similar in photos like that yeah, but I wouldn't say the Daytona is a copy of the Z really. I mean yes it has the classic coupe's basic sillhouette, but that's pretty generic for the time anyway.Similar yes, but I wouldn't go so far as to say Pininfarina COPIED Nissan designers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g260 Posted April 1, 2003 Author Share #3 Posted April 1, 2003 Alfa,Actually I was only being tongue in cheek! The Daytona is a beuatiful car and representative of its time. I was just intrigued by the similarity in shape but that was where the comparison finished.Cheers,g260 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS30-H Posted April 1, 2003 Share #4 Posted April 1, 2003 The 365 Daytona debuted at the Paris Motor Show in late 1968 - so Pininfarina would have had to have had a man on the 'inside' at Nissan if they had copied the S30-series Z.............Yoshihiko Matsuo has mentioned in interviews that he was a big fan of many products of the big Italian styling houses ( aren't we all?! ) during the Sixties. If you look at the Ferrari 275 you can see a lot of cues for cars such as the S30-series Z and indeed lots of other stuff, and its clear that Matsuo and his team would have been influenced by cars such as these. In fact I think Matsuo has namechecked the 275 as an influence on his taste, and he only got the chance to go further with this when the ZG debuted in late '71. I think its probably fair to say that almost ALL automotive designers and stylists would have been looking towards Italy during this period, and would have been influenced by what they saw. I don't know how far the Italian houses were influenced by what they themselves saw in other designs from other countries - but I'd have to say it was probably pretty peripheral ( try saying that while you are eating............... ).Japanese manufacturers were naturally looking to Italy, as the acknowledged masters of automotive styling cool, right from the mid-Fifties. Indeed, by the late-Fifties Prince had already paid for design consultants from Italian styling houses to help them with the Skyline range. I doubt if Matsuo and his team would have seen what the 365 looked like until at least early to mid '68 - and by that time the S30-series Z was already looking pretty much as it was going to look at launch.More a case of great minds thinking alike than copying I would have thought...........Alan T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g260 Posted April 1, 2003 Author Share #5 Posted April 1, 2003 Alan,I agree entirely with your comments. It was only my warped sense of humour getting out of control. I will try and be more serious.I must say that I greatly enjoy your dissertations on the history of the Z car.Regards,Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS30-H Posted April 1, 2003 Share #6 Posted April 1, 2003 Geoff,I really like posts like yours. That's what made me take the bait!I too have permanently got my tongue planted firmly in my cheek. My dry and boring style of writing probably doesn't quite get this across. Maybe I should use more Smilies.Keep 'em coming..................Alan T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2ManyZs Posted April 1, 2003 Share #7 Posted April 1, 2003 Kinda makes you wonder who or what they are copying now doesn't it?:cross-eye :tapemouth I guess the AMC Pacer might have been a little ahead of its time after all, nearly everything now is rounded and without character....:stupid: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EScanlon Posted April 1, 2003 Share #8 Posted April 1, 2003 Geeeeeezzzzz!!I can't believe you guys! The Ferrari!? HAH!!!!How about the Jaguar XKE? THAT is the true car to have influenced the Z.Gosh, Alan, how could you have missed it?grumble, grumble......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EScanlon Posted April 1, 2003 Share #9 Posted April 1, 2003 Here's a pic that doesn't do the Jag justice, but should suffice to support my point. (By the way, "EDIT' won't allow you to upload a picture after being bombed out by the program because the picture is too big, and last I checked 454Kb is LOTS smaller than 1048576 bytes.....grumble grumble.....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS30-H Posted April 1, 2003 Share #10 Posted April 1, 2003 Hi Enrique,Hmmmm, that's a good point - but your picture was of a really late E-Type ( Series 3 or later? ) and that was styled a fair time after Matsuo and his team would have been doing the S30.Matsuo has name-checked the E-Type as a reference-point in the design process ( in fact Nissan bought or otherwise borrowed one for the design team to have a look over didn't they? ) - but that would have been either a Series 1 or 2.I always thought the Series 1 coupe was the best ( I always choose coupes over open cars ), and the rest were pretty ugly............... especially the 2+2 version.I like the ( partially obscured ) caption on the photo, by the way!I think the Ferraris ( 275 / 365 et al ) look closer to the S30 design in the end.Good point by 2ManyZs too. I have no idea what they are putting in the tea at the Nissan Design HQ canteen - but its sure making things come out looking a bit less exciting than they used to.....Alan T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfadog Posted April 1, 2003 Share #11 Posted April 1, 2003 I blame renault!And I dislike how it seems that no car company from other countries around the world are ever accused of copying, but Japanese makes seem to be always given flack about having designs that look similar to other cars.I like to call the Z a unique design by itself. Sure it was inspired by a few other cars, but ALL cars are intentionally or unintentionally inspired by something.It's racism I tell you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHOTIME Posted April 1, 2003 Share #12 Posted April 1, 2003 From the A pillar back it looks like the Ferarri, forward it looks like a Jag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EScanlon Posted April 1, 2003 Share #13 Posted April 1, 2003 Here's another picture of another car: Toyota 2000 This is another car that also had influence on the Z. And don't forget the Opel GT, although that one may have been much later. By the way, sorry for the pic of the Jag, it was the only one I had and .... This one came from the same source if I recall. As far as taking this all so seriously, I'm not. In fact, I'm kind of having fun pulling everyone's leg at the "serious" tone here. If anyone's leg comes off due to my pulling, I'll just have to beat you about the head and shoulders with it. Enrique Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfadog Posted April 1, 2003 Share #14 Posted April 1, 2003 Ah yes, we've all got something ot say about teh 2000GT............I think the Z looks like a BMW 507 :cheeky: :cheeky: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
go z racer, go Posted April 2, 2003 Share #15 Posted April 2, 2003 Ahh, but then, Datsun rejected the Albrecht Goertz initial "Z" design submitted in 66. Datsun sold the design to Toyota, hence the Toyota 2000GT.Although the above mentioned is true, it was noted that Mr.Goertz was more intrigued/influenced by the lines found on the E-Type Jaguar.Simple coincidence that the "Z" resemble the BMW 507? Perhaps, but more likely due to the fact that Mr. Goertz designed the BMW 507 as well.---Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfadog Posted April 2, 2003 Share #16 Posted April 2, 2003 Ya, that's what the :cheeky: faces were all about mate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
go z racer, go Posted April 2, 2003 Share #17 Posted April 2, 2003 Well, of course......I knew that.......I was merely testing you....---Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfadog Posted April 2, 2003 Share #18 Posted April 2, 2003 Yes, well, I knew you knew that. That's why I was friendly and used the . Right.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
go z racer, go Posted April 2, 2003 Share #19 Posted April 2, 2003 Thanks, it made it a lot easier to get my foot out of my mouth.---Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS30-H Posted April 2, 2003 Share #20 Posted April 2, 2003 Originally posted by go z racer, go Ahh, but then, Datsun rejected the Albrecht Goertz initial "Z" design submitted in 66. Datsun sold the design to Toyota, hence the Toyota 2000GT.Although the above mentioned is true, it was noted that Mr.Goertz was more intrigued/influenced by the lines found on the E-Type Jaguar.Simple coincidence that the "Z" resemble the BMW 507? Perhaps, but more likely due to the fact that Mr. Goertz designed the BMW 507 as well.---Jerry Sorry, but Goertz did not design the S30-series Z. I also don't see very much similarity between the BMW 507 and the S30-series Z.If Goertz can claim input on the A550X prototype, and it was shown to Toyota by Yamaha ( not Nissan ) after Nissan blew it out in '64 - then how come Goertz does not claim the design of the MF10 Toyota 2000GT? Goertz does not want to be connected with something that was seen to be a failure ( even though the Toyota was a great car ). Kazuo Kimura had just as much input on the A550X prototype as Goertz did.Actually, the A680X prototype looked more like an E-Type than the A550X - and the A680X had more similarities with the S30-series Z than the A550X did.Yoshihiko Matsuo and his team would have been influenced by the E-Type, amongst other references ( and he has name-checked the E-Type ) and it is they who designed the S30-series Z car. They also designed the A680X prototype.I think the Goertz myth is going to go on forever now. Nissan should have nipped it in the bud before he brought that court case and the Nissan legal department settled out of court with an ambiguous statement ( which Goertz was happy with - but was a lot more than he deserved ).I am no Goertz fan, as you can tell. Alan T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
go z racer, go Posted April 2, 2003 Share #21 Posted April 2, 2003 whatever---Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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