LHD 240Z in 1969 TOKYO auto show

[kats]

Here in japan LHD Z is minority.Even journalists do not know much about DATSUN 240Z.Every car magazine talks about only RHD fairlady Z.I think we(japanese people)must know about how much Zs are welcomed outside of Japan and Z was aimed for international market when plan had began.Some people(around 50years old) here points in 1969 Z was too great to own for japanese ordinaly people.Because not only its high price for 2 seater but also great driving peformance.Z was a car like ferrari F355 for today.But Z was not a car like that in the U.S. and other country.So when japanese people study the fact of the Z car,it is neccesary to study the DATSUN 240Z,I think. So I am trying to "teach"japanese people about the DATSUN 240Z through the magazine or the internet.

In oct 24th 1969,nissan showed their new personal coupe at Tokyo auto show.This was fairlady Z,RHD Z car.But at the show,there was one LHD DATSUN 240Z.

This 240Z was blue,so colour code #903 was not it.Interior was black.There was a spoiler on tail gate.

I did not know LHD 240Z showed up in japan earlier than U.S. or other country.

What do you think of it?I would like to have coments for this writing.

Thank you.

kats

[HS30-H]

Kats, you might find that as this is a US-based and largely US-populated site that you do not need to tell everybody what they already think to be the truth.

Personally, I take the opposite view to you. I think its quite clear that Nissan aimed its sales of the S30-series Z at its biggest potential market ( the USA and North America ), but there is NO WAY that the S30-series Z was designed primarily as a left-hand-drive car.

It is beyond doubt that Nissan designed and built most of the components in the S30-series Z to suit a right-hand-drive layout. The left-hand-drive version was a variant on the RHD base. If you want evidence for this, try thinking about where the handbrake is situated ( or emergency brake / side brake - depending on where you are ), or where the inlet and exhaust manifolds are situated on the engine. Does anybody have any real conviction that the LHD layout makes more sense than the RHD layout for these cars? I'm sorry - but if you want to believe that Nissan built the S30-series Z with a mainly LHD version in mind, then you would have to say that they messed it up!

To aid my defence, I would state the examples of the UK-based auto manufacturers ( such as MG, Triumph, Jaguar et al ) who always knew that their biggest chance of major sales was to sell well in the USA. This is back in the days of "Export Or Die". They made LHD versions of their cars, but there is NO WAY that they designed them primarily as LHD cars. You would have to say that this was in fact a great mistake; if they HAD put more thought and effort into the LHD versions then those companies might have still been in British ownership today...........

Nissan made a pretty good job of the LHD version of the S30-series Z, and people like Yutaka Katayama may well have preached the story that it was designed "for" America. However, I would much rather listen to an Engineer than a Salesman ( and lets not forget that Mr K. was naturally going to tell America what it wanted to hear ) and I don't think that you will hear any of the engineers involved in the project saying that the car was built "for" the American market in any engineering sense. If it was, then how come they compromised the LHD version so much over the RHD version?

I have often toyed with the idea of starting a thread here that asks what people believe to be the truth about the RHD versus LHD debate. However, I very soon thought better of the idea as it seemed clear that asking a 99% LHD based audience a question like that was going to elicit just one type of answer!

But seeing as Kats has kind of opened a debate about it, how about it? Any comments? Who agrees with him, and why?

Simply citing the numbers sold will not swing it, as quantity does not mean anything. If it did, then most of the UK-manufactured sports cars of the '50's and '60's would be in the same position. What we are talking about here is cars designed in a RHD market being sold in a LHD market, and that is something that Japan and the UK shared in common. I can't think of even one of the big-selling UK manufactured sports cars that worked better or made any more sense in LHD form over RHD form. Its just natural, and as I say, could arguably be seen as a big mistake on the part of the manufacturer.

Kats may be seen as something of a rebel in Japan. I don't think that there are very many Japanese historians or enthusiasts that would agree with him that the S30-series Z was designed "for" the LHD export market. Its somewhat ironic to have an Englishman debating with a Japanese gentleman over these points, when the Englishman is fighting for the Japanese corner!

I personally know only too well about cars originally designed as LHD not working very well in their RHD versions; I have owned several Alfas and Lancias that had terrible ergonomics in RHD form in comparison to their LHD iterations. I know that these cars were designed primarily as LHD, and that the RHD was something of a compromise. I see the S30-series Z as a car that went through its design process primarily as a RHD, with thought paid to a LHD version secondarily. How else can you explain how it turned out?

The new "Z33" is the opposite; I think they have shown all the way through that they were thinking of the LHD form primarily, and the RHD secondarily. I don't think this happened with the S30-series Z.

Looking forward to a probable barrage of disagreement.............!

Alan T.

[kats]

Hi Alan,

Thank you very much for your replying.It is exciting to debate

about this with you.More than that I would rather debate with japanese people I want to envolve them in this topic.I was expecting you put coment for me of this topic.I aleady know your opinion seeing in the classic Z register magazine.And I wrote about your opinion in the magazine "AUTO WORKS" you know,I stated it as a opinion of ordinaly England Z car owners.

O.K,I am trying to exprain more detail what I am thinking.I may deviate route of course,please be paitiant.

I agree 100% with your opinion about S30 is designed as a RHD model and there are many inconvinience of driving and maintaining mechanicaly LHD model.

This is my opinion, because nissan is a japanese company!

Production engineers had to reduce cost,this was primary order form the head of nissan company.I had a chance to talk with Mr.MTSUO he is a chief designer of S30,he said at that time in the company there was a syndrome of reducing cost.For example earliest hub caps is based on C30(Laurel)model and as every body knows there are too many items to list up here were used for S30 from other nissan model.

As Mr.MATSUO said in his article S30 prototype was much smaller than production model.It was planed 4-cylinder engine and overal hight and length was smaller.At this moment they didn't plan to be No.1 in the export market.As I see it they just thinking about selling for mainly domestic market little bit for export.

But once Mr.K saw the prototype of Mr.MATSUO's designed sports car Mr.K loved it very very much and he pushed nissan to sell this in U.S.A.Then Mr.MATSUO said

he had to re-designed shape due to pass the requirement for the M.V.S.S in the U.S.A.At that time engine was decided to put 6-cylinder than 4-cylinder .Mr.MATSUO said he enlarged the length and width of front section for 6-cylinder.In his article there are some photos they checked hight of head light and turnsignal lens to meet M.V.S.S.

And to think about interior size,Mr.MATSUO said he had to accept enlarge the hight of roof because american people are much taller than japanese.Mr.MATSUO wanted to design much lower roof,but production engineer pointed out his design was too low for american people.

So I think S30 is based on RHD,but I want to say S30 was designed for not only for domestic market.At least S30 design process was infuruenced by the U.S.A.market.Japanese people don't realized this so much.And they don't know DATSUN was a great car brand in the world.DATSUN Z was made in japan!!Japanese people have to know about this.I can say it doesn't

matter S30 is RHD or LHD.S30 was designed not only for japanese people.Japanese people have to know why S30 has 6-cylinder,why the interior is so roomy,how the dementions of length and hight and width was decided.We can't say these points without export market especialy for U.S.A market.

I want to enphasize DATSUN rather than LHD model.Yes,this is my opinion.

Alan,could you understand(or read is much better) my opinion?

English is hard work I wish I could say in japanese.

Thank you.

I welcome reply from enybody.

kats

[Gav240z]

Well from reading the above and from reading the interesting write up at http://zhome.com/History/Myth/DesignEvoluB.htm . My opinion is that the Z was originally designed to be a Japanese car with the 4 cylinder option. After Mr K saw the prototype it was then changed to suit the US requirements. Since the first off the line Z's were right hand drive I believe that the car was later changed to accomodate the growing demand for the cars in the US.

It's a complex history and I wish I knew a bit of Japanese or could speak with the original designers and engineers of the car as Kats was able to do.

Either way I couldn't imagine driving my Z on the left side or any car for that matter. Living in Australia all my life has set my mind that way.

Alan's right about the handbrake position it's perfect for right hand drive and the engine setup. Would you say the petrol cap position has any variance???

Look forward to more interesting facts guys.

[HS30-H]

Hi Kats,

You put your points very well. Hats off to you for doing it in English too.........

At first, it seemed to me that you were implying that the S30-series Z was designed "as" a LHD model primarily, and a RHD secondarily. I'm sorry to say that there are many people who believe this to be true!

I would agree that Japanese historians / journalists / enthusiasts are perhaps somewhat lacking knowledge on the "world" view of their car industry in the post-war period ( although whenever I see a Japanese book or magazine article on the S30-series Z, it seems to me that they usually DO mention the LHD export versions ). However, they are certainly no less uninformed ( and sometimes downright wrong ) than the "rest of the world" ( read; "English speaking" press here ). You will STILL find magazine articles, even books dedicated to the subject, written in the English language, that get SO MUCH wrong about these cars. They are still even preaching the big myth that Albrecht Goertz designed / styled the car. In many cases they have NO IDEA that the S30-series Z was sold in its Home market with so many variants, or that it was raced and rallied with great success outside the USA.

I was another of the mis-informed masses until I first went to Japan some 15 years ago. I then started seeing that I was not in command of the full facts about this particular car or the Japanese car industry of the Twentieth Century in general. My eyes were really opened to the excellent models that were available in Japan but unheard of in the rest of the world. I made great efforts to try to learn about all this, and since then I have been learning all the time. Its a massive task, and I will never finish it, but I do want to try to find out as much as possible - and I always try to promote the Japanese "side" of the story where it is necessary. I have to say that the best part of 35 years of the WRONG information about the S30-series Z and its design process is now committed to "history", and it will probably take another 35 years to overturn that. Recently, I have noticed a slow but sure reappraisal of Goertz's involvement in the project - but its nowhere near strong enough to dispel the myths that he himself has created and maintained. I really feel sorry for Mr Matsuo, and I have pretty much lost respect for the people that should have protected Nissan's history and heritage, and defended Matsuo and his team back when the silly stories started.

The design change from four-cylinder to six, and its consequent enlargement of the body, happened quite early in the design process. What interested me was that they actually did not seem to have total conviction that the car could sell as well as it finally did in the export market, and that there really WERE so many compromises in the final LHD version. The point about the "cost-cutting" and use of generic / shared componentry with other models is actually just good sense; so much of the Japanese car industry's success in exports through the '60's and '70's was down to having a good product AT THE RIGHT PRICE. An aid to that was that the Yen was so weak in foreign exchange during that period. What Matsuo and his team were having to face up to is something that ALL car manufacturers now have to take account of. I know that the British car makers of the '50's and '60's had to face the same task, and people would be surprised to know where a lot of the componentry came from ( the engine of the Triumph TR2 for example was basically a tractor engine...... ). What impresses me is that they made such a good job with what were components from a very diverse range of models, mixed with some key type-specific designs.

So, here's me and a few others trying to tell the English-speaking car world that they should not necessarily believe all they read or hear, and there's Kats in Japan trying to do the same thing in reverse! I must say that I do honestly think that the situation in Japan is better than in the rest of the world. At least they generally have an inkling that the S30-series Z sold incredibly well in the USA and North American markets. I still meet and speak to Z enthusiasts who have NO IDEA of what went on in the rest of the Z world, or that the Japanese market arguably had the better choice of models / variants to suit all tastes and pockets. The rest of the world pretty much got one market-specific specification on a take-it-or-leave-it basis ( exterior colour was the only choice offered in the UK market for example ).

I think that you can almost see Nissan's realisation about the needs of the rest of the world from the mid-'60's; a whole host of models suddenly appeared towards the end of that decade that really hit the spot and proved a success in the export market. The 510 Bluebird was a world-class car, and I am still amazed that it hardly seems to get the recognition it deserves. If it was French, German or Italian the car journalists would still be praising it as a milestone design. I think that there still has to be a lot of prejudice against the Japanese out there that goes hand in hand with ignorance.

I saw and spoke to Mr Matsuo at the Nismo Festival again last Sunday. The poor man was making his own way around the event in the company of a friend, and in no way seemed to be looked after as any kind of VIP by the Nissan or NISMO top brass. It was mainly "us" Z enthusiasts who noted his presence and crowded around him, or showed any kind of reverence. I guess the fact that he left the company such a long time ago means that he now has to fend for himself. If I were at Nissan, I would make a great effort to re-recruit him and make him some kind of advisor. Stranger things have happened; look how close Mr K. is to the company again ( he's having the last laugh at all those beancounters who showed him the back door all those years ago ). Maybe Mr Matsuo would not be happy about such an offer, but it would be nice if Nissan asked him. Its interesting to note that many of the new magazine articles and books in Japan on the Z33 are interviewing Mr Matsuo about the "original" Z, but I have yet to see the man's name mentioned in any story about the Z33's "DNA" in the English language. Very sad, that.

Kats, I completely agree that the design process of the S30-series Z was influenced by the intention to sell it as a LHD export model. They could not have ignored this fact, and would have been keeping it in mind right from the beginning. They could not have done otherwise. What I want to defend against is the assertion that the S30-series Z was designed PRIMARILY as a LHD car, and that the RHD versions were in some way second-best. Just as I said in my previous post, it could be argued that Nissan made a great mistake in NOT designing the car primarily with LHD in mind ( surely some LHD customers would have complained about the positioning of the handbrake at some point!? ). The fact that such a huge percentage of sales went outside Japan would not have been such a surprise, especially since the Japanese economy and road system of the period made the Z look the equivalent of a Ferrari today. I have met many Japanese Z owners who saw the car when it was new and immediately wanted one - but were not able to realise their dream until later. I have to say that the situation in Europe was perhaps only a few years ahead of Japan at that point. We had lots of exotic cars coming out into the showrooms that only a very few of the elite could afford to buy and run ( example; E-type Jaguar ) - but it was good to dream whilst we exported in quantity and reaped the rewards in foreign currency. I think this is pretty much what was happening in Japan too.

I want to defend against statements like the one I saw on zhome recently, which imply that the LHD version of the car was the primary concern of Matsuo and his team, and that the S30-series Z was designed "for" the USA / North American market. It even goes to the point of saying that the car was an "......American car, designed and built in Japan........". That's the kind of skewed view that I find it unbelievable anybody could really believe is near the truth. It would have made sense for Nissan, Matsuo and his team to be thinking along those lines ( if they had, they might have made a better job of the ergonomics on the LHD version ) - but I think its quite wrong to think that they DID. Whilst I agree with much of what is on that kind of website, it really does seem to take a very strange view about this point. I can see faults on both sides ( being neither Japanese nor American ), but I completely understand the Japanese viewpoint and think that it is natural. The zhome opinion is much more difficult to even get near to agreeing with.

Best regards,

Alan T.

[sjcurtis]

Hi Team,

I must say I find this disscussion fasinating. I do not Know that much about the Z in its HLS form or the early days of pre-production or early production and country distribution. I do Know that there is a lot of grey area now through intent or just lack of broad based Knoledge.

I do Know this ,When you place the indicator arm on the steering column you place the on the LH side for LH drive orientation and on the RH side for RH drive, orientation. Did they make a diffrent switch unit on the column for light and indicators on HLS versions. When I switch my lights on the arm indication is not viewed in an upside down position in my HS30 orientation. One item that definately is produced for the HLS and is diffrent to the HS version is the bonnet/ hood safety catch, it has changed to suit the actuation cable orientation. ETE ETC. The P510 sedan is sensational I had the advantage of cutting my teeth in some fine 1600/P510 cars in many diffrent guises.

Thanks for the quality of the thread team. Please keep it going.

My 2c

Steve

[kats]

Hello Steve and Alan,

I want to discuss about the story of disapered DATSUN,but now I am staying outside so I don't have enough time to continue.

Recently in japan,many TV shows talked about DATSUN and Mr. K .Even old ladies(like my mother) know the sad story about Mr.K.I want to know how many people out side japan know the true story of disapered DATSUN?

Talk soon.

kats

[HS30-H]

Go for it Kats!

Your input will be hugely valuable to everyone who frequents this site.

Just type away. Even a short post is better than nothing. I'll do my best to help out if I can.

All the best,

Alan T.

[Ben]

Although not nearly appreciated enough in Europe, the 510 is THE cult car in Australia. But I don't think that many Aussie's realise how successful they were in the US & Japan on the track/dirt.

We get to see a lot of the magnificent machinery that the Japanese manufacturers produce, but only on the 2nd-hand market.

Part of this is due to the mechanical robustness that is required for a car to be successful in Australia. Nissan spent millions toughening up the R31 Skyline & developing a whole new powerplant to make is suitable for Australian conditions. And when things started going downhill in the early '90's (they pulled out of local manufacture & went to 100% imported) they couldn't really justify doing the same thing with the R32 platform.

The other issue is the fact that the Australian market is built on low-revving V8's & sixes that have to have a large towing capacity.

But I digress, & this is a very interesting thread.

[CoastGuardZ]

Howdy Fellas,

I'd like to throw in my 2 cents worth.

I'm in the states and we are all stuck on ourselves, real proud (read: ignorant) people. Not too long ago I too realised the Z was truly 100% RHD. The whole thing about the manifolds on our drivers side with the steering column and pedal assemblies did it for me.

I believe it is indisputable that the car was largely influenced by Mr. K for the U.S. market. More were sold here, money money money. It's all about money. We americans spend a lot of it. The Z was a lot of performance for the money. But we got hosed, we just got the regular Z.

I'm a big fan of the 510. Come on, it had IRS and a great engine!

Any way thats my 2 cents worth.

Nate

[kats]

Hi, Ben, Nate,

Thank you very much for joyining this topic.

And Alan,I really need your follow up!You probably know I can't talk here with out your co-operation,I am always expecting that you help me and you expand the topic much more interesting.

Tonight I am staying at an hotel for my job,so I do not have an english-japanese dictionary(but actualy in my home,I do not use it.I know I have to use for correct english but I do not want to spend so much time for searching words).

I write BAD BAD english tonight as usual.

First of all,DATSUN was deleted by Mr.ISHIHARA a formar president of NISSAN motor company.

This is true.

Of cource the hole story was not easy, I know. People outside of NISSAN like me is just knowing by the TV showes broadcasting many times recently.

But this is true.And a interesting story here.Once Mr.ISHIHARA had a chance to meet Mrs.Satcher maybe in late 70's,he intoruduced himself to her but she did not know NISSAN was a father company of DATSUN.She asked him like this,"I know DATSUN,is it related to your company?"

Then Mr. ISHIHARA was SO SHOCKED for that conversation because he expected NISSAN was well known company in the world.

He got a idea that changing name of brand from DATSUN to NISSAN.

This is my guessing,Mr. ISHIHRA treated DATSUN as a just a small brand outside japan.he did not know how much people loved DATSUN in overseas.

This seems a little bit funy for people looking this story here,does not it?

I think.

Because his way of thinking was quite typical japanese manager or I can say japanese people style.

I have to exprain more detail and I have to show more deffernt reason.

But I have to quit tonight,sorry for this.

Talk soon.

kats

[kats]

Hi,friends

I made a terrible mistake.I should write "Mrs. Thatcher" a former prime minister.

I am so sorry for this. Yes I must use a dictionary.

kats