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What's wrong with US Senate?


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You can always vote for a 3rd party candidate. People say its wasting a vote but thats bullshit. No vote is a wasted vote if you vote for who you prefer, a wasted vote is if you vote for someone you dont like. Even if your candidate doesnt win if you vote for him/her it at least shows support.

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Obama grew up here in sunny Hawaii. Although he went to the elite private school founded by the white missionaries, he probably experienced a lot of prejudice, pain and hurt because he's black. Don't be fooled by Hawaii's "melting pot" reputation. This is possibly the most racially divided, prejudiced place in the whole world. HOWEVER, we have learned tolerance and that's what keeps us from killing each other.

What bothers me is that we are often told who won the election before we get to vote. It makes us feel insignificant, like our vote doesn't count. And our dismal voting record shows it. Candidates don't even bother coming here to camapign. We need staggered voting times or a media blackout.

I vote. Not because I think I'll make a difference in the outcome of the election, but so I have a right to complain. I learned a long time ago that if you don't vote, you have no right to complain.

Oh yeah, I don't say the pledge of allegiance either; ever since I found out that the original pledge did not have "under God" in it.

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Most socialists see "patriotism" or "nationalism" as bad qualities that enable the empowered to rule over the working class. I don't think that most of your everyday Democrats really understand why they don't like the flag, and they'll blame it on Bush or whatever is convenient at the time, but when you go right to the source of the matter it boils down to another barrier to "egalite". Right Jason?

callin me out eh? haha

i feel that everyone has certain beliefs and there is nothing that anyone can say to change those beliefs. "false beliefs are often maintained by a strong confirmation bias, or the tendency to seek information that confirms our preexisting beliefs rather than may disconfirm them." that being said, i'm sure i'm guilty of it. but i will always feel that there is a distinct lack of equal opportunity in America. sure, i'm a registered democrat, but i vote 3rd party. anyway, i'm not one for handouts, if that's what you might get from my post. i'm one for a big change in the education system. but i digress.

oh, and for the record, not that it matters, i'm an atheist and a semi-socialist, vegetarian and pacifist.

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callin me out eh? haha

I didn't think it was calling you out too much when you said you were going to vote for Kucinich and had "Biafra for President" under your screen name. :P

So what about the flag thing, and the patriotism issue? Are you true to the egalite concept of the "universal human experience" where people shouldn't be separated by imaginary constructs such as nationality (amongst other things)? Just curious.

For the record I'm a patriotic, agnostic, Libertarian, laissez-faire, if-you-want-it-****ed-up-get-the-government-involved kind of guy. I just don't say that in the little text under my screen name.

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I got a "talking to" every other day it seemed in middle school/high school for not reciting the pledge of allegiance.

Sorry but I dont think pledging to the flag makes you any better of an American.

God knows theres been treason comitted by people who also pledged "allegiance".

Anyway I'm out of this thread.talking politics has a tendency to make me angry at people no matter how much I may like them. haha

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I didn't think it was calling you out too much when you said you were going to vote for Kucinich and had "Biafra for President" under your screen name. :P

So what about the flag thing, and the patriotism issue? Are you true to the egalite concept of the "universal human experience" where people shouldn't be separated by imaginary constructs such as nationality (amongst other things)? Just curious.

For the record I'm a patriotic, agnostic, Libertarian, laissez-faire, if-you-want-it-****ed-up-get-the-government-involved kind of guy. I just don't say that in the little text under my screen name.

don't worry i wasn't taking offense at anything :)

i do believe in a "one world, one people" type thing, but it's obviously a very complex issue that cannot be simplified that way. the only enmity that i have towards the flag and patriotism thing is the fact that it would be embracing ideas that don't mesh with me. namely the forced relocation of indigenous peoples by the members of the US, even after the government was based on their influence. there's also an implied sense of arrogance that accompanies it. "get out of my country," and "those damn french/canadian/etc." anywho, oddly, my roomie's a libertarian, my best friend's a republican, and my son's catholic (via his mother). go fig.

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snip.... An American is one who believes that his country is a sovereign nation with defined and protected boarders, with an official language that is English and one culture: AMERICAN. Lose one of the triad of what is to be American you will lose your country.(My Z angle)

A sovereign nation, yes ... English as an official language, yes (but more for logistical reasons than anything else)

But one "culture" American ... please tell me what is American culture ... America was founded by immigrants from hundreds of different lands.

The closest thing to American 'culture' that I can think of is more what I call the "American Idea" ... the idea that anyone with the will to succeed can through the use of America's freedoms and free market economy.

America became so great because the people that arrived at the start were bold, adventurous and most of all ambitious people looking to make things better. America was founded by idealists and this is what made America great. Ambitious people with a country of great resources at their disposal and a free market economy to allow them to prosper.

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I still think that Colin Powell has the brains, integrity and gonads, we need....

A woman? Condoleeza Rice. Forget that she's black as well, she has a lot of what we need and I don't see her BS'ing about with the laws or moral depravity the other potential female candidate seems to flaunt.

Either of them would have my vote if they were GREEN and had 5 heads. The important pieces, to me, are the integrity and the gonads.

We all know EVERY politico has some integrity issues, it's the nature of the role. But, it's nice to have someone that places a premium on it, e.g., isn't getting "smoked" in the hallowed halls of the White House by someone other than the First Lady....

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Djarbi and Bill,

If you're sick of your politicians and decide to leave, COME DOWN HERE !!!!!!!.

Our plitical parties are downright laughable. The Coilition,(Liberal and National Parties, presently in power), makes an election promise, then the Oposition,(Labor Party), makes the same promise, then they argue about who REALLY thought of it first.

Rick.

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We all know EVERY politico has some integrity issues, it's the nature of the role. But, it's nice to have someone that places a premium on it, e.g., isn't getting "smoked" in the hallowed halls of the White House by someone other than the First Lady....

I've stayed out of this thread so far, because I don't believe that this is the right forum for this discussion. However, the above quote seems to illustrate, to me, some of the challenges we face at the moment, and the degree to which people allow themselves to be distracted from those challenges.

What makes the walls of the White House 'hallowed', might I ask.......?

There's evidence to suggest that most presidents have done things that are similar in nature. Clinton's real problem wasn't so much what he did, rather it was the way that he denied it. If he had said 'It is none of your business' when asked, he wouldn't have put himself in such an untenable position.

Many people, myself included, feel that the country is headed in the wrong direction. Nobody can argue anymore that we're on the right course in Iraq, nobody can argue that our standing in the world has improved over the last several years. We supply billions of dollars worth of aid to countries like Pakistan, and yet we can't influence them when they introduce policies that we don't agree with? Please, Mr. Musharraf, while you enforce martial law it would look nicer if you removed your military uniform? I mean, seriously! We are propping up governments in oil-producing countries, governments that in turn invest those oil revenues in madrasahs where children are taught to hate us. So.....why haven't we gone full-bore into alternative energies, again?

We haven't done it because we are all invested in the status quo, and especially our government and the lobbyists that influence it.

Republican or Democrat, it's going to take a lot of diligence, consistent effort and a heavily thought-out policy to restore American influence and bring our allies back into our political orbit. We've done a lot of damage to our credibility and it needs to be restored somehow....and at the rate that we're investing in a failed policy in Iraq (while the rest of our military rusts from lack of investment, for example the US Navy which has half as many capital ships as it did during the 1980's), we need our allies more than ever.

It never fails to amuse me, because people talk about political candidates the way that they talk about potential prom dates. Who cares if he's black, white, bald, green, blue, Mormon, Catholic, whatever? We're electing someone who will represent the will of the people, we are not electing a preacher for our church. Religion is not a requirement for election to the presidency, remember, the only requirement is that the Constitution be enforced.

What we need are bold ideas and the political will to implement them.

As for myself and where I stand, the only person I am not willing to vote for is Rudy Giuliani. Any of the other candidates are on the table for me.

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This whole thread is BS. If you want to divide this group, go ahead and keep it going.Im here to talk Z cars. If you want to alienate half the club keep talking $^!# about one political party.

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This whole thread is BS. If you want to divide this group, go ahead and keep it going.Im here to talk Z cars. If you want to alienate half the club keep talking $^!# about one political party.

That would have made an excellent final post to this thread.

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They say most politics are local; sometimes it is good to talk about them. One of our founding freedoms was the freedom to debate. Many today, don't understand that debate is important in democracy; there is this idea out there that we must take sides when it comes to politics....it is an all or nothing type attitude. In order to debate we must respect other opinions even if we disagree with it. Giving up the freedom to debate to me is one of the reasons we the people are not longer in charge of our elected officials, they are in charge of us, and it was never intended to be that way. By no longer debating amongst ourselves we end up getting taken over by the lobby groups because we no longer stand for anything except the candidate’s name. So many of us stand by silent in order to "not upset" anyone, meanwhile our rights are taken away left and right, our elected officials try to pass bills that will give rights and citizenship to people who broke into our country. Here in California there is talk about charging people with older cars more to register their cars because of course older cars pollute more. But of course we don't want to talk about politics because someone's thin skin might get broken....instead we will sit by and let our rights and Zs taken way. Politics are important to car guys, someday we will have to stand-up to keep our cars, the Green Mafia is up and coming....laugh now but remember you heard it here first.

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Our freedom to debate is taken away every day by an administration that deems anything that doesnt agree with what it says as "Unamerican" and by burying any other things it does wrong by saying it cant be released due to national security. As soon as you express any criticism then oh no you hate this country and everything it stands for. "Either you're with us or against us", why. I consider going to war with a country under the false pretenses that it somehow had something to do with 9/11 and had WMD's alot more anti american than criticising those actions. Last time i checked america was founded by revolutionaries who opposed what their goverment was doing. If no one criticises the actions of the people in charge then progress will never be achieved.

Btw im not a Democrat or a Republican as both have things i agree and disagree with. But it seems that they are both just playing the part of extreme "Conservatives" and "Liberals". Do they believe what they say? With exception to ron paul i doubt it. And i love how a certain party preaches "morals" then people in it are caught trying to have sex with underage boys or in homosexual situations. Not that there is anything wrong with that, just something wrong with being a hypocrite.

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What makes the walls of the White House 'hallowed', might I ask.......?

You're kidding, right?

There's evidence to suggest that most presidents have done things that are similar in nature. Clinton's real problem wasn't so much what he did, rather it was the way that he denied it. If he had said 'It is none of your business' when asked, he wouldn't have put himself in such an untenable position.

I could care less whether or not other Presidents have done similar things - that's speculation unless there's proof. My issue is less about what he did, and more about the questionable decisions he made in his personal life. Make questionable decisions in your personal life means you have a high probability of doing so in your professional life. And so he did, using Secret Service agents / police to run cover for him while on trysts - that's jeopardizing his being and the Nation's security - that's the tip of the iceberg. There's a laundry list on that guy, don't take my word for it.

However, the above quote seems to illustrate, to me, some of the challenges we face at the moment, and the degree to which people allow themselves to be distracted from those challenges

Not sure what to make of this, but don't lump me in with what you perceive as "challenges" - nor am I distracted, as you say. I am more than politically articulate AND politically involved, middle aged and quite educated, thank you.

And while we're at it, if we are so invested in the status quo, burying your head in the sand and hoping it all goes away isn't the right attitude. It's so shallow and obvious to say we've propped up foreign governments due to oil. Is it part of the reason? Yes, absolutely - but we aren't invading Venezuela and they provided upwards of 15% of US oil. You can think we've stepped in Iraq due to our lack of alternative energy sources (of which I support - nuclear fusion), but it's deeper than that. Is there any coincidence to the fact that Afghanistan and Iraq sandwich Iran? What do you perceive as the major threat to our country, and other developed nations around the world? It's certainly not Hugo Chavez. Was September 11, 2001 so long ago that we aren't recognizing the threats that exist to our country and our citizens?

It's been said, those that forget the past are condemned to repeat it. I fear more people are forgetting past history.

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the direction that this thread seems to be going in is not conducive to what i feel mike was trying to accomplish. we can argue the war in iraq, etc, until we are blue in the face. we can still keep it cool in here, but we gotta respect each other's opinions.

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the direction that this thread seems to be going in is not conducive to what i feel mike was trying to accomplish. we can argue the war in iraq, etc, until we are blue in the face. we can still keep it cool in here, but we gotta respect each other's opinions.

I agree.....talk about the House and Senate is what I thought Mike was aiming for. Our representitives do not represent us any longer. Even though I am a HUGE supporter of debate, I don't see any sense in debating the war in Iraq. I see Marines and Sailors everyday who were injured, to a man they believe in what they were doing and would do it again. Until they finish the job I will reserve my right to an opinion on this mattter. Let's stay on task on this thread, the next election will have one of the biggest effects on our lives, we need to wake up to the agenda of these people before we become the Socialist Repulic of America. Faxes, letters, E-mails and phone calls do work, if they get enough from you they will listen, remember what happen to the McCain Amnesty Bill and the Dream Act. The current Congress is at 11% approval rating one of the lowest rating in history....there is a reason for it. Mike was right on when he stated this thread. Get the Congress to the do the business the American working class.

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You're kidding, right?

I could care less whether or not other Presidents have done similar things - that's speculation unless there's proof. My issue is less about what he did, and more about the questionable decisions he made in his personal life. Make questionable decisions in your personal life means you have a high probability of doing so in your professional life. And so he did, using Secret Service agents / police to run cover for him while on trysts - that's jeopardizing his being and the Nation's security - that's the tip of the iceberg. There's a laundry list on that guy, don't take my word for it.

The word 'hallowed' means sacred. As in a cemetery or a church. The White House is the residence of the President of the United States, nothing more.

And you prove my point about Bill Clinton. So he did those things. So what? You think that Lyndon Johnson and John Kennedy and Dwight Eisenhower and any other number of men didn't do the same thing? And what does that have to do with any of the current crop of candidates for the presidency? Not much.

And further, who cares what Bush has done during his presidency, either personally or in terms of his foreign policy? It's clear that he's made a number of foreign policy mistakes, but they are not reversible, so why argue about them? The point is that we need to have a strategy from this point forward, and throwing in a random 'Clinton did this' doesn't help matters.

If we are looking at that kind of stuff, we are looking backwards, not forwards. Personally I happen to think that we're at a political crossroads, as a nation, and that we need to look forwards, ignoring the 'wrapper' that any particular candidate has been wrapped in by the media, and that we should be focused on listening to ideas and letting go of the dogma that has captivated our attention thus far.

But....enough. None of us are foolish enough to think that we are going to convince anyone else of the merits of our political arguments on an automotive forum, are we?

I kind of feel like this thread has run its' course, and if Mike hadn't started it I probably would be petitioning for him to lock it already.

So....can we get back to talking about Z's?

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