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kats

Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432

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4 hours ago, bartsscooterservice said:

That's crazy lol, the car would have much more potential with a good 5 speed ( overdrive ). Although the 4 speed is pretty damn wide ratio, it's lacking in giving the car a proper top speed.

I mean okay you can pull it to 190/200 km/h in a sprint and max out the rpm, but for continues driving at high speed it just isn't suitable.. you really need an overdrive here.

Offcourse I have to consider back in the day 120 mph was alot

Not much point in mentioning transmissions types/ratios without reference to the differential ratios they were paired with.

In the markets where a 5-speed overdrive type transmission was standard equipment, a 4-speed was offered as a 'showroom option'. It would require a diff ratio change to make it work as intended. However, I very much doubt that such options were taken up in practice except perhaps in Japan, where the selling dealers had a more realistic chance of fulfilling such an order, but then Japanese buyers had the choice of both 4-speed and 5-speed equipped models on the showroom floor anyway. In contrast, here in the UK it was a case of choosing from whatever had actually turned up on the boat... ("do you want the red one or the blue one...?"). The 4-speed was theoretically an option, but I can't imagine why anyone would select that option. They would have been better off buying a Cedric or a Laurel.

When I have asked the "why 4-speed + 3.3:1 diff for north America" question in Japan - including putting the question to Chief Chassis Engineer Mr Hitoshi Uemura - the answer was usually that the driving style of the average north American market customer was perceived as being less 'sporting' than those in other markets, and that a wide ratio 4-speed transmission with a tall differential ratio would be more suitable for the vast majority of such buyers. Cost would also have been a major factor in planning. There are other details on early cars which show the initial cost-cutting focused planning for the north American market Export models. So it was likely a combination of both.

Without wishing to insult, reading between the lines it seems clear that the USA mass market in particular was seen as being less sophisticated, less inclined to live with more frequent gear changes and higher RPM cruising speeds, and that the arch enthusiasts who did require that type of sporting character would be happy to modify their cars to suit (and it appears they did). All the same, it would have been nice to see a more sports-focused model available alongside the 'standard' north American Export model. Something along the lines of Car and Driver Magazine's 'Omega Z', perhaps...?    

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Several thoughts here...

Nissan (Datsun) was not aware of the overwhelming response that the newly introduced 240Z would have in North America.  Looking at how popular the car became is hindsight; not the foresight present when the specification was determined for the North American export.  What we got was the stripped down, basic S30 model.  For instance, the 240Z originally came with rubber floor mats.  Carpeting was originally added at the port of destination; manufactured by a North American company.  5-speeds were not very common in North America at the time.  There seemed no need to 'jazz up' a car which was going to have questionable sales results in spite of Mr. Katayama's influence.

Once the popularity of the 240Z took off, there was no custom ordering with an optional 5-speed.  People stood in line for the 'opportunity' to purchase one.  Whatever car was delivered to the dealership was what you got.  If you didn't like the color, you lost you chance to purchase as there were several people in line waiting for anything.  My 26thZ was initially ordered in white.  It arrived green.  It was the first and only car delivered to the dealership (Campbell Datsun in Sarasota, Florida) and the dealer wanted the car to sit in the showroom for some time as it was the only example they had.

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Interesting inputs... it looks like providing initial lowest cost may have been one of  the prime reason for the 4speed, and instant profits from the "selling like hot cakes" so why change a thing kept the 4 speed in place.

 

For early product enhancement, the transmission focus was more on providing an automatic so the 5speed would have been a "second fiddle".

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1 hour ago, 240260280 said:

For early product enhancement, the transmission focus was more on providing an automatic so the 5speed would have been a "second fiddle".

I don't agree.

Primary focus was - clearly - on providing efficient packages in both 4-speed and 5-speed versions, with third member gearing to suit. The transmission tunnel was already big enough for the future provision of an Auto transmission, as that was part of the initial pre-production planning - despite an old school slushbox type Auto-transmissioned GT/Sports car being a flightless bird in Darwinian terms.

This topic is worthy of a split into its own thread. However, such topics have sometimes become divisive here, especially when the "American Car, Made in Japan" type narrative is challenged in any way. It's still gospel to some, and the most evangelical proponents are sacred cows. I've been warned off from mentioning name, rank and serial number. It's like being served a roast dinner and being told you're not allowed to touch the meat. Vegetables only.

"There Be Dragons..."  

 

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LOL Alan.  I concur.  I should have clarified more:  I was responding to why the US market did not get a 5 speed in the standard offering (bad pun) for so long.

 

1. I was referring to why the 4sp stuck for so long in the US market at the start.  My guess is what is stated above... it cost Nissan less (assumed) and it sold like hot cakes from the start so why change it? 

2. I was referring to why the 5sp was second fiddle to the automatic transmission in the US market only. Clearly other markets would have had the 5sp as a focus.

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20 hours ago, HS30-H said:

Not much point in mentioning transmissions types/ratios without reference to the differential ratios they were paired with.

In the markets where a 5-speed overdrive type transmission was standard equipment, a 4-speed was offered as a 'showroom option'. It would require a diff ratio change to make it work as intended. However, I very much doubt that such options were taken up in practice except perhaps in Japan, where the selling dealers had a more realistic chance of fulfilling such an order, but then Japanese buyers had the choice of both 4-speed and 5-speed equipped models on the showroom floor anyway. In contrast, here in the UK it was a case of choosing from whatever had actually turned up on the boat... ("do you want the red one or the blue one...?"). The 4-speed was theoretically an option, but I can't imagine why anyone would select that option. They would have been better off buying a Cedric or a Laurel.

When I have asked the "why 4-speed + 3.3:1 diff for north America" question in Japan - including putting the question to Chief Chassis Engineer Mr Hitoshi Uemura - the answer was usually that the driving style of the average north American market customer was perceived as being less 'sporting' than those in other markets, and that a wide ratio 4-speed transmission with a tall differential ratio would be more suitable for the vast majority of such buyers. Cost would also have been a major factor in planning. There are other details on early cars which show the initial cost-cutting focused planning for the north American market Export models. So it was likely a combination of both.

Without wishing to insult, reading between the lines it seems clear that the USA mass market in particular was seen as being less sophisticated, less inclined to live with more frequent gear changes and higher RPM cruising speeds, and that the arch enthusiasts who did require that type of sporting character would be happy to modify their cars to suit (and it appears they did). All the same, it would have been nice to see a more sports-focused model available alongside the 'standard' north American Export model. Something along the lines of Car and Driver Magazine's 'Omega Z', perhaps...?    

Okay...

It does suck in modern traffic these days.. datsun looks ' quick " but you can't go faster, because of the damn gearing LOL. It's just missing one more gear ( overdrive ) for modern traffic to come along in higher speeds.

I've been considering doing the conversion, but I don't want to go 280zx 5 speed, if I do then it needs to be the Original 5 speed option ( gearbox, driveshaft, diff ) that came on the 240Z.. and let these be pretty damn hard to find, it's all worn out if you can find.

( Excuse my bad English it's not my native language ;) )

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bartsscooterservice,

Please do not say that , I am always so embarrassed myself. I don’t even know what is bad in your English!

Kats

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Thank you everyone ! I am so happy that we can talk about this deeply .

4 speed vs 5 speed , I think this is slightly related to the topic which we always love to discuss 

S30 series was made for USA or not ?

 

This is my thoughts at the moment, 

The S30 series oriented in Japan , was made for the WORLD .

Its biggest market was USA . 

 

Probably this was the same for people in Nissan company at that time. However each person who was involved had each idea in his mind I think .

 

Mr. Suitsu who was a chassis design manager of S 30 , he said in an interview

  we aimed USA as the biggest market of this car , we always kept that in mind

 

For the US , he said there are many troubles about Porche synchro , people in the US mistake their shift ,  two way action ( put , then push with squeeze) makes a driver feel completed shifting , but it really has not completed . This  makes a transmission worn out easily

So we quit Porche synchro in the US

 

I see why 5 speed was not available for USA and Canada  until August 1976 , Nissan did not have Warner 5 speed until that day .

FS5W71B is a Warner synchro, after its debut , USA and Canada received 5 speed without fear of Nissan .

 

Mr. Takei and Mr. Miyazaki dedicated developing Europe model in 1970 to 1971 ,

They were in a vehicles test department that they always felt Z car needs to be more sportier for the customers in Europe.

5 speed was no doubt for them .

 

Mr. Uemura was an engineer and he had got to be involved S30 project in April 1967 and was told this car is mainly exported to the US He and everyone wanted to make a car which can be sold well in the US , he started work for chassis design . In his mind there was always people in the US .

 

Also he was the crew of test drive in the US and Canada late 1969 . After the test he was convinced that 4 speed with 3.364 was proper for the US and Canada .

 

He said about 4 speed and 5 speed , 

5 speed is must in Japan because the car is not for the ordinary people in Japan ( engineers had heard of sports car was popular even for young ladies in the US , big difference! )

So , did not want to lose against TOYOTA 2000 GT or Mazda Cosmo etc , Nissan must have 5 speed for their sports car in Japan even someone doesnt like the feeling of the Porche type synchronized gear shift . 

Sales department worried about the feeling of Porche synchro , Mr. Uemura too, but finally he insisted to fit 5 speed into S30 .

 

Mr. Matsuo was passionate about to shock the WORLD with Z car .

( Mr. Yoshida and Mr. Tamura were too , the design team had been learning from and taking admire to many great sports cars around the WORLD , naturally they wanted to compete with those cars ) 

 

But at the same time every designer who I met said I wanted to be successful in designing sports car in the biggest market, USA . Winning in the US meant winning in the WORLD .

And , the team had started it well before they met Mr. K !!

 

After they met Mr. K , they put many US related things into the S30 . Like enlarging the height of the roof , widening the with of engine room for V8 , prepared for a big US made automatic transmission with a wide center tunnel . 

Also went to 6 cylinder engine from its original concept 4 cylinder engine, 

Those are all essential and very important things of S30 , those are can not be removed or replaced other things to suite for the each designated Export model .

 

So S30 did not have much consideration for the US at the beginning of design study but later when it had went on real project, it was influenced by USA in terms of basic of  car structure. 

BTW , for the body styling designers , 4 speed or  5 speed might not be the matter . 

 

 

Mr.K always said Z car , we made this car for you , USA . And he said selling car in the US , a single model is the best .

Of course we offer optional parts for the customers who really want to add something special  

 

Mr. K , he thought 4 speed / 3.364 with a single model was suitable for the US and Canada as he had been seeing people enjoying SP SR . 

But I think the big difference between SP SR and S30 is , sales  volume .  

I understand making small quantity with many variations is not good for a company , but for S30 , Nissan could still sell good numbers of 5 speed from the factory without ruining their profit even there was an issue of Porsche synchro shifting trouble

 

If I was able to ask Mr.K now , I would ask 5 speed for the US and Canada , and Mr.K would say yes ... Seems only Mr.K knew a huge success of S30 before its debut while other executives and engineers were wondering S30 s potential of sale .

 

Mr. Kawamata , former President of Nissan always said sports car does not make profit , it is just like an advertisement  

He would have never imagined selling a sports car in the US to make people happy , and make Nissan happy until he saw a S30 prototype.

 

Kats

And I always thank you everyone, you are all patient for my writing ! 

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Thanks , like everyone said I think it is a combination of some facts , how people use the car , and what is the best for the manufacturer.

Funny thing is FS5W71B still remain Porche synchro for the fifth gear .

Kats

Edited by kats

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6 hours ago, lordkarma88 said:

Also,@bartsscooterservice, what's wrong with the 280zx tranny? I heard the 280zx as a whole is a whale, but nothing bad about the transmission... I don't know much thought emoji23.png

Early cars have the transmission gearshift further back than earlier cars. So a 71A gearbox is more suitable for early 240z's. If you don't want to get into the business of bending the gearstick backwards and hacking up center consoles.

In my 72 240z (which had a 71A box from factory, being a late 71 build) we compromised with a 71B/C hybrid box (71B bellhousing) and Ctype rear extension housing which gives my car a 71B box in terms of ratios etc.. but the gearshift lever further back to suit the early style body and transmission slot.

2 hours ago, kats said:

Funny* thing is FS5W71B still remain Porche synchro for the fifth gear .

Which might explain why shifting to 5th always felt strange compared to rowing through the first 4 gears.

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On 10/20/2018 at 3:26 PM, Gav240z said:

Which might explain why shifting to 5th always felt strange compared to rowing through the first 4 gears.

Yeah , I have never driven FS5W71B , but I can imagine. 5th is one way operating gear , I mean it does not have “ down shift “ , this makes the fift gear less likely worn out than the other gears . So Nissan remain the Porche type synchro for the fifth gear ? 

Kats

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FS5C71A has big two nuts for securing the fifth gear , this design is a cause of common trouble of surging the gear and the hub by the big two nuts become loose.

Mr . Kawashima has been rebuilding so many Nissan transmissions , he puts a single big nut with special securing method for the fifth gear of FS5C71A If customers want it . 

Also he recommends using a 71B upgraded folks , double sealing for the control lever etc . 

He offers me FS5C71A with all the Warner synchro modification, I think it will be very nice but , I just like the original at the moment.

Kats

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27F6D512-05E9-4E86-80C3-6822121EAAFA.jpeg

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These two FS5C71A rebuilt by Mr.Kawashima , one is in my Z432 and the one is taking a rest after driving a few thousand kilometers.

I checked the big two nuts , they are rock solid ! Mr. Kawashima tightened them properly. 

Kats

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I'm admiring Mr.Kawashima's rig for working on the transmission, let alone his work.

Edited by SSS-S30
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Yeah, I liked that stand too.

I also like the double staked nut. It looks like he added a set screw to the nut. Staked the edge of the nut and then staked the set screw as extra insurance. That's what experience will do for you.

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On 11/3/2018 at 1:50 AM, kats said:

Yeah , I have never driven FS5W71B , but I can imagine. 5th is one way operating gear , I mean it does not have “ down shift “ , this makes the fift gear less likely worn out than the other gears . So Nissan remain the Porche type synchro for the fifth gear ?

I will trade you a drive of a 71b gearbox, for a drive of an S20 powered S30z? 😁

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Today I did some work on the S20, Japan is now nice but little bit chilly in the morning and evening. I adjusted carbs at an airport parking lot before my flig😁ht

The carbs were summer set up , I was hoping I set for autumn, but I tried not to touch a lot . I felt I must stay with Mr . Watanabe ‘s tuning . My work is not perfect , I am just an amateur . 

Kats

 

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Edited by kats
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Hi , two cars comparison.

Both are 1972 model , and survivor, . They are not restored , but have had been well taken care of from original owners.

As you guess and see both , the orange is nicer than the maroon . California climate? Maybe , but this maroon is keeping very good condition as spending its life in humid Japan .I realized we can keep our car like this if we take care of our car very well even in Asian countries.

 I think the difference came from “ history “  of each cars. The maroon had some scratches on the left hand front fender and door , and little bit under the left hand rear bumper , near the muffler. The orange did not have such injuries. This makes maroon looks inferior of its exterior condition to the orange, the repair job at that time ( 1973 and after ) was not good  . But I like its history,  then It makes me feel difficult to decide remain as it is , or paint it like new with whole new parts which I have stored.

Also the orange still has complete carpet and jute set , even each one has a paper stamp of quality inspection. The maroon is missing two front jute set , all the others are remained with the car . Tools , wheels, hubcaps , and speakers

, seats , these hard to keep things with cars are original.  I can compare one by one , the one has spent its life in the US , and the other one has spent its life in Japan . Some parts are looked identical of its condition, but some parts are not the same , it is fun to guess what made these parts looked different. 

And both have a lot of receipts from the begging ! 

Kats

 

 

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Edited by kats
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@kats

 

Here is a nice solution for keeping wheel-to-hub nice: Anti-seize

 

The salt on the roads here can bond the wheel to the hub (especially if hub-centric). 

 

For a classic liek yours, brushing a light coat of anti-seize on the hub surface reduces/hides rust. 

 

I always put on the studs too but others do not.

 

Below is an example of a Miata hub from the net.

 

image.png

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