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kats

Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432

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Hi Kats:

Oh by the way - the reason I ask about finding and restoring some of the 240-Z's that were raced by either the Factory Backed Teams or Private Teams in Japan; was because it would seem that some of them should still be around, and maybe not as sought after as the 432's have been so far. Might be a good time to find one of them to buy and restore.

Brian Long lists 16 races as "Notable outright victories in Japan" between 4/70 and 4/75. After the 240-Z was introduced into the competition in 7/70 the 240-Z's won 10 of the remaining 14.

3 Drivers are listed for the four 432 victories, but 6 different drivers are listed for the 240-Z's 10 victories - so it would seem that given the larger number of drivers, if not cars - some of the 240-Z's would have been located and restored to their historic spec.'s by now.

Does Nissan have any in their collection in Japan? Have you located any of the original Drivers? As you know several of the noteworthy Drivers of the early Z's are still active in the Z Car Community here in the States and several of the early Championship cars are being or have been restored.

<a href=http://www.canepa.com/inventory/racecar/240z.html TARGET=NEW>Brad Frisselle's IMSA GTU Championship Z</a> The "asking" price is $275K

regards,

Carl B.

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Carl,

The basic answer to your question is yes, they are still around, in private collections, sometimes shown and driven, and highly sought after.

Chris

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Hey that thing was rebuilt in my back yard. I used to live in Scotts Valley. Now I'm going to have to find some time to stop by and ogle it.

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Hi,

pictures of the dash and tach.

44 12 26 (26 Dec 1969) for the dash,

15 11, 9, (15 Nov 1969) for the tach.

kats

kats,

Words cannot express my amazement at that Z432. What a beautiful example of how these cars should be preserved and presented. Is there any chance you will bring either or both of these cars to Daytona later this year? If not Hosomi-san may need some help as he is planning to drive two cars to the convention.

Thanks again for the soundtrack.

Is there any explanation as to how the Showa date is in a slightly different format for the tachomoeter versus the typical format as on the back of the dashboard?

BTW,

I have been meaning to communiccate my latest Showa date finding in a late S30 or S31 chassis as you would refer to it in Japan. I removed the carpeting recently from my '78 280Z and on the back of the carpet was a Showa date stamped and clearly legible. The question is would this date also be found on the back of the carpeting in a 240Z?

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Hello all,

Carl,there are some S30 famous drivers still can ride in the restored/original or replica S30 in Japan.We can see both(Zs and drivers) at Nismo festival every year.Alan reported very well some time ago with pictures.

But I have not seen the very first Z432-Rs which run at the race in 1970 nor the very first 240Z (in 1970,Japanese market did not have 240Z yet.But RHD shell powered with L24,I think it is not just HS30 for export.432-R shell with L24 I guess) running at the festival.

daddz,thank you always,I want to bring my Z again but,I do not know when can I do again.My dream is two Zs from Japan are driven by me and my son across in the U.S. I will need to take a few months vacation:)

I have not thought about format of date stamp,it is interesting.Let's gather as many as possible,then we can see some trends.I wish I could have chance to see the original carpet!

I drove Z432 1000 miles in two days.That was very fun to travel.

That days were very fine,strong sun shine and temp rose like summer.

So many bugs sticked on the front section,but Z432 was always fun to drive.

Now Z432 is sitting next to the 240Z,I have just started comparing generally and precisely each other.

kats

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Hi,

I intentionaly remain original early choke plate,because NOS one is available but there are "ON" on the face,it is slightly later one.I painted it by my self(left one)

Also I intentionaly not replace the seats,they are very nice as 37 years old.

I am always saying the difference of shape of the seat back.This early(possible DEC 1969 or Jan 1970 made)seat remains its good shape.I love that.Two plastic side guards are came with.

The two dove tails are very very rare now,they are very easy to crack.How many Zs are still equiped with these early thin parts?They are the originals,Z432 got NOS for right and left.They are not interchangable.

Plastic hook for the seat belt is different from 1971- model.But I know more earlier hook is metal core and rubber dipped.We can say Jan 1970 has plastic small hook as a second version,can't we?

Also,I noticed Japanese Z has hook on the very upper side of the seat back.Almost near our year when we sit.Looking at U.S. Z,the hook on the middle of the seat back.Near our shoulder.Only very very early Japanese Z like on the brouchure has same location like U.S. Z. I have never seen shoulder location except 1969 Z in Japan.

I collected all metal emblems for Z432 like my 240Z."432" is still available at local Nissan but they are plastic.You can see the difference between "DATSUN" and " Z" both are metal and for the hood."Z" is thicker than "DATSUN".

kats

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At the Tokyo old car show,two 432s were there.

The Orange one is Z432-R,this car belongs to Mr.Takeuchi and is well known as a best example of Z432-R.We see this car on the book and web so many times.

You can see the Z432-R's oil cooler,non-master vac of the break system.

I have got a NOS oil cooler but I will not install it.S20 engine is very good for cooling,my driving style could be "too cool" for the engine.If you race it and always go up to 10000rpm,you need the oil cooler.If you install it,you also need a pair of special bracket for the dual horns.

And,FRP hood.This is not After market.This is original,very cool.

kats

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Thank you Chris!

Some one noticed this Z432's hood is NOS but later type.Original hood came with,but paint finish was not completed before I picked up.

Now the original hood is in painting,please note the edge of the corner,it is very simple metal press.This is the earliest.

kats

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Kats,

Nice thread subject, and great pictures - thank you! Your 432 looks beautiful now that it is finished ( my favourite 432 colour too I think ). Congratulations!

The Orange one is Z432-R,this car belongs to Mr.Takeuchi and is well known as a best example of Z432-R.We see this car on the book and web so many times.

I have seen Takeuchi san's car many times at shows, and in magazines / videos etc and no disrespect to him or his car ( of course I love it - especially his tyre choice; very 'correct' ) - but I don't honestly think it is the "best example" of a PZR in Japan because it has so many non-standard parts and modifications on it. In the engine bay alone, you can immediately see the Weber carburettors and red 'Ultra' plug wires are non-standard, and his seats also appear to have been re-covered at some time in the past. I think that there are several more original and 'correct' PZRs in Japan, but their owners are more camera-shy than Takeuchi san.

And of course, just about every PZR was unique in it's specification and details anyway. No two cars were exactly the same..........

I drove Z432 1000 miles in two days.That was very fun to travel.

That days were very fine,strong sun shine and temp rose like summer.

So many bugs sticked on the front section,but Z432 was always fun to drive.

Now Z432 is sitting next to the 240Z,I have just started comparing generally and precisely each other.

Kats,

I would like to hear your impressions on the differences of the two cars with regard to the driving experience. I think this is a good opportunity for an objective comparison between two almost completely standard factory-spec Z cars, made within a few months of eachother, but of different model types and aimed at completely different markets.

As you know, I have driven some 432s ( first time was around Tsukuba circuit - which was very interesting, and on the same day as I drove a Toyota 2000GT - which was a real eye-opener! ) and it was very interesting to compare the driving experiences to my UK-market 240Zs and to my Fairlady 240ZG. But I have also driven some reasonable distances in some USA & Canada market cars here in the UK and in Japan ( one was a 1970-built Canadian market model, and the others were early 1971 and late 1972 USA market models ). The differences were surprising to me even though I was pretty much expecting them.

Have you come to a view yet?

Cheers,

Alan T.

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Thanks Mike ,

and Alan,I am going to London this month,15th Jun.Is there any chance to see you there?I also tell Len that my flight is set.

you can immediately see the Weber carburettors and red 'Ultra' plug wires are non-standard, and his seats also appear to have been re-covered at some time in the past.

You are very strict!I have to be honest,my Z432 has lots of "non-standard" parts.Front wind screen,plated axle,front break disk(first slotted hat originals were installed,but they are not enough thickness),door weather strips(originals were tried but they are too thick the doors didn't shut correctly,replaced to the later soft and thin one)

My 240Z is now 7 years old from restoration,well maintained but not clean.I think my 240Z is purer than Z432,240Z has lots of original parts from body panels to screws.

First of all,before I decided to buy Z432,I had hated Z432.My best car in my mind was DATSUN 240Z.Because Every time Z432 show up in the magazine,journalists say "top model of S30 family"

What is the definition of "top " in that case?The highest price?I did not agree.

S20 engine ?I was very suspicious about S20,because many many Z and skyline owners say "S20 engined car(Z432 and skyline GTR) is not so fast on the street,modified L series is faster and easier to drive than S20.those car is always difficult to set up and maintain for good condition."

Now I found,Z432 is very exciting car.My first ride was last year,on Mr.Yoshida's car.I was surprised S20 engine is so sexy looking and sound,torque engine and sharp response for the throttle control.

And my 1000miles driving with renewed Z432,

Everything is tight,suspension is good,steering ,throttle and clutch pedal are needed little more muscle than 240Z.These feeling is very exciting for me.

I feel "I am driving car!"

I think 240Z is very soft everything.I know it is 7 years old from restoration,I can not compare directly with the car fresh off the restoration shop.

One thing I want to tell you all,I was in heavy traffic jam on the highway on this 1000miles driving with Z432.I had to go a several feet ,then stop.I had to repeat this almost 40 to 50 minutes!!Outside was very hot,I was worried about water temp.I unlatched hood lock to give little open for air flow and turned on heater.I always do this 240Z when I have to drive in a jam.

Water temp of Z432 had been stabilized in the middle all the time.That was better than 240Z.240Z's temp is higher little more in the same situation.

S20 engine has well considered water cooling system and cross-flow intake and exhaust system gives good operation,fuel will not be heated,you can not get fuel vapor lock because of the fuel pomp is near the gas tank and three carbs are opposite side of exhaust manifold.

Thanks,

PS the picture is Mr.Yoshida's Z432

kats

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....and Alan,I am going to London this month,15th Jun.Is there any chance to see you there?I also tell Len that my flight is set.

Great! We must meet up. Have you arranged anything with Len yet? I will PM you.

You are very strict!I have to be honest,my Z432 has lots of "non-standard" parts.

Personally I don't have any problem with non-standard parts on these cars ( my cars have lots too! ), but I think magazines and books that use non-standard cars for illustration of original specifications should be a little more careful. This is one of the reasons why people become confused, and it makes things a lot more difficult to understand for the enthusiast - let alone the layman. I think we need to know the stock 'Factory' specs in order to get the right perspective of the cars, that's all.

First of all,before I decided to buy Z432,I had hated Z432.My best car in my mind was DATSUN 240Z.Because Every time Z432 show up in the magazine,journalists say "top model of S30 family"

What is the definition of "top " in that case?The highest price?I did not agree.

Ha ha! I know what you mean, but Nissan were in the business of selling cars and this is the way that cars get sold. Many of the people that had their tongues hanging out when they crowded around the 432 on that swish turntable at the 1969 Tokyo Auto Show will have probably ended up buying Cherries, Bluebirds and Sunnies ( if they even bought a new car at all ). The drip-down aspiration from the 'Prestige' models is what helps the bulk sales models to sell. Maybe some of those young guys eventually managed to buy a base-model Fairlady Z ( or even a Z-L - wow! ). You shouldn't 'hate' the 432 just because it naturally found itself somewhere around the top of the pile any more than I should 'love' the base-level S30 for being such an underdog at the bottom of the same pile.

Spare a thought for the poor misguided people who still seem to believe that the S30-series was not a 'family' at all.........

And my 1000miles driving with renewed Z432,

Everything is tight,suspension is good,steering ,throttle and clutch pedal are needed little more muscle than 240Z.These feeling is very exciting for me.

I feel "I am driving car!"

I think 240Z is very soft everything.I know it is 7 years old from restoration,I can not compare directly with the car fresh off the restoration shop.

Ah, I'm glad you feel this way as it corresponds very well with my own impressions. To be brutally frank, the USA & Canada models I drove felt somewhat 'numb' to drive - rather like trying to drink a cup of tea not long after having a local anaesthetic at the Dentist's surgery. They felt a bit dead and sedan-like in a way that my UK market cars and my ZG did not. The 432s on the other hand feel so 'alive' and connected to the road and to me.

I felt that the 432 - with close-ratio 'A' type 5-speed, 4.44 ratio LSD, nice spring, anti-roll bar and damper rates and of course that 'afterthought' S20 engine installation - just felt like a really well-balanced package for a standard car. They felt special enough for me to believe that no modifications or upgrades were strictly necessary.

Cheers,

Alan T.

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Just goes to back up my thought that the rest of the world had their Z experience financed by the enthusiasts here in the USA-you guys got all the goodies and options and we got the actual base model...spread the development cost to the world, but keep the toys for the chosen ones...

Will

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You can say all you want, but the racing record is here in America. Sure the Z was raced in "other" countries, but the record number of overall victories and consecutive championships is here - home of good-'ol Meric'n Enginuuity. Call us cowboys, but we know 'zaclly' what to do with a soft, voluptuous spinner like an HLS30. Too bad they don't have Corvettes and Mustangs to blow off in England or Japan. Sure, any red-blooded Yank loves the sophistication of the foreign Fairlady, but we did just fine with our imported babes.

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I'm just thankful we got the 240Z!

Though being given the opportunity for both would have been great too!

Will

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Dang! I'm just grateful for getting opinions from people who have had the opportunity to drive a 432, "brutally frank" or not.

Congratulations Kats! Great car!, I sure do look forward to your posts.

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Hmmmm,

I mention that the USA / Canada models of HLS30 ( and that's not all HLS30 models by the way....... ) feel a little *soft* to my taste, and it instantly seems to raise some hackles. Interesting.

I don't consider my opinion of the USA / Canada models to be a criticism as such ( maybe more of an *appraisal* based on comparisons with other models I have driven ) and I can't see how it can be taken that way. Those cars were configured that way, and it was considered 'correct' for the majority of their market at the time. They sold like hot cakes, and therefore their specification was quite obviously well judged. How on earth can this be described as in any way giving Katayama san a "bad rap"???

I'd be interested to compare notes with any other members beside Kats who have driven all the models discussed. Any volunteers? Maybe not.

You can say all you want, but the racing record is here in America. Sure the Z was raced in "other" countries, but the record number of overall victories and consecutive championships is here - home of good-'ol Meric'n Enginuuity. Call us cowboys, but we know 'zaclly' what to do with a soft, voluptuous spinner like an HLS30. Too bad they don't have Corvettes and Mustangs to blow off in England or Japan. Sure, any red-blooded Yank loves the sophistication of the foreign Fairlady, but we did just fine with our imported babes.

Ha ha!

Remind me - What state of the USA was the East African Safari Rally run in? That's an event of WORLD significance contested between the most serious factory teams, and was won twice outright by the '240Z'. The first time it won - in 1971 - the car was running with 'Fairlady Z' emblems on it, which must have made a few people who reportedly hated that name bite their tongues.

Yes of course the Z was raced with huge success in the USA ( and hats off to that ), but to talk with authority about any "record number of overall victories and consecutive championships" you would need to have a very good idea of what the Z's racing record in Japan consisted of - would you not? If I thought for one moment that you had such data to hand and had considered it in full comparison, then I might take your claim a little more seriously.

Actually, we DO have Corvettes and Mustangs ( and even Camaros ) here in the UK, and have had them over here since they were new. Yours truly even owned a couple of them in his youth, which brought a little deja vu to the driving experience of those USA & Canada market Z models :bunny:

And before you get too carried away about all this "us" and "them", remember this: Over here in Europe we never got the 432 either! "We" did get what was ( in my opinion ) a spec that was a little more *sporty* a version of the Z than "you" though, and one presumes that this too was a fairly good judgement of the markets concerned.

Too bad that NONE of us ( even Japan ) ever got the triple-carbed 'High Po' L-gata version of the '240Z' - whose shoes the 432 model was created to fill - alongside the more sedate models. In fact, markets outside Japan might have enjoyed any kind of multi-level model variant choice come to that.

Will, you are MOST welcome to Liz Hurley. None of us over here are remotely interested in her. Mutton dressed as lamb. :love:

Alan T.

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Sure the Z was raced in "other" countries

In "other" countries when you think about the racing history of the S30, its racing pedigree in the US doesn't really come to mind. I guess you have to be American to have that point of view.

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Too bad that NONE of us ( even Japan ) ever got the triple-carbed 'High Po' L-gata version of the '240Z'

Alan T.

Hello Alan, can you elaborate on this model? One of a kind? Works cars? Please, please tell what you know.

Very interesting thread by the way. I was hoping we'd leave the "us versus them" stuff out but its inevitable I guess.

I'd give a lot of money to drive the other S30 versions. Just to say that I had!:devious:

Chris

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Alan,

I realized the folly of my reading in, and edited my post. MY apologies, my fingers typeth over in a misguided attempt to be a wee bit funny. I revisited the parts books (JDM and USA/Canada, and saw that I am glad a 432 is different, it should be, and yes, I would trade my eyeteeth for one, but not my 240Z!

I picked Elizabeth Hurley( she was the first decidedly English movie star I could come up with-though I have only seen her in Bedazzled, Passenger 57, and Austin Powers) over Shirley Stelfox and Mary Millar because she was far prettier to me-but still had "Rose" :cheeky: quality of Hyacinths sister-Nudge, Nudge, Wink, Wink, Know what I mean, Know what I mean!

Will

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Thank you lots of input every one,

My love for my 240Z has not changed at all.I love it very much and I love everything related with the 240Z especialy U.S. 240Z.

I am loving Z432,and learning Z432.Soon I can not say which is the best for me,I will say I love them "Both".

Remember I told about Mr.Miyazaki (please see #24 in this thread) he said he was told one Z432 sent (exported?) to the U.S. but soon it crashed.

And one S20 was sent too.

Let's find out who is hiding with S20 in his hand!!Must be somewhere.

Mr.Miyazaki said Z432 was not exported to the U.S. due to emission regulation which was getting harder and harder at that time.Engineers did not think about a smog pump with a S20.It looses power,it does nothing good for S20 as a racing engine.

And consider about service and repair surpport in the U.S.,Nissan thought it was imppossible to expect good number of mechanics who can really take care of S20 engine. ( I do not know about this,but same in Japan,the old Z432 owner told me he had to drive 500 miles to Tokyo Nismo service center for maintainance of Z432 in 70's.)

What about Europe and Australia? No smog requiered.I do not have any idea.Cost of S20? maybe.Let me think about price conversion back in 1970.

The 240Z in the U.S. was $3,526 ,I chose the Fairlady-ZL to the best comparison was 1,080,000JPY.

Z432 was 1,850,000JPY. S20 engine was saying aprox.700,000JPY.

Z432=1.712x ZL , so if Z432 was on sale in the U.S.,the price tag would be $6,040:eek: :eek: (please do not take this seriously)

What do you think of this price range?No-more good price?What about value for money in this case?

I said before,S20 engine has no problem in the High temp operation,I feel disapointment that Z432 was not exported.Like Arizona and Texas,Florida people could enjoy and buy Z432.

PS:spare tire bord is two piece for Z432.

The seat belt hook for JDM is this location.

kats

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Great pics Kats.

Looking at the pic of the brake and clutch masters, can you tell me why there are what looks like two ballast resistors attached to the firewall? Just curious tiz all.

Hell Alan, Liz Hurley!!! I for one wouldn't kick her out of my bed and being a New Zealander, I LOVE mutton :love: . I sopose you would prefer Fergie?:eek:

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Cost of S20? maybe.Let me think about price conversion back in 1970.

The 240Z in the U.S. was $3,526 ,I chose the Fairlady-ZL to the best comparison was 1,080,000JPY.

Z432 was 1,850,000JPY. S20 engine was saying aprox.700,000JPY.

Z432=1.712x ZL , so if Z432 was on sale in the U.S.,the price tag would be $6,040:eek: :eek: (please do not take this seriously)

What do you think of this price range?No-more good price?What about value for money in this case?

kats

Kats,

In 1970, $1.00 = Y360. So, Y1,850,000 = $5,139.00. Add shipping, customs, import tax, etc, and $6,040.00 seems to be very close, if not a little low. Value for the money? Certainly. But remember the mind of Americans at that time - Japanese car = cheap transportation. $6,040.00 could buy a lot more American car, so I think it would not sell well at that time.

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Hi Kats:

The seat bottoms you show at Post #31 - have black seat tracks. All of them I've seen here in the US were originally an olive green or olive drab, seemed to be a rust proofing paint. Were the JDM seat tracks black for some reason?

regards,

Carl

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