E88 not the best head?

[=Enigma=]

Wow! Thanks for all the great insight Paul. I may have some questions for you in the near future as I gather parts for an L28 build up. The block I'll be using for the build is an F54 which will come with a P79.

What's been going through my head recently was whether the Maxima N-47 head off of an W24(2.4L) block was a worthwhile investment for a stage I or II level street performance engine? I have a bead on one or two for a fairly cheap price. Based on what you said here, it sounds like it is.

So, if I had a choice between the Maxima N47/L24 or the N42 and P79 from L28's for my build, what would you recommend?

Also, is there any difference betwen the N42 head found on N42(2.8L) block vs. those found on the Maxima P30(2.4L) block?

[montoya_fan01]

Wow! Thanks for all the great insight Paul. I may have some questions for you in the near future as I gather parts for an L28 build up. The block I'll be using for the build is an F54 which will come with a P79.

What's been going through my head recently was whether the Maxima N-47 head off of an W24(2.4L) block was a worthwhile investment for a stage I or II level street performance engine? I have a bead on one or two for a fairly cheap price. Based on what you said here, it sounds like it is.

So, if I had a choice between the Maxima N47/L24 or the N42 and P79 from L28's for my build, what would you recommend?

Also, is there any difference betwen the N42 head found on N42(2.8L) block vs. those found on the Maxima P30(2.4L) block?

FWIW, I don't think this info was posted on CZCC by Paul Ruschman, I think the poster was referencing info that he found on HybridZ.

[wishihadaz]

Correct,

I am referencing what I read in a L6 forum on HybridZ.

Actually one of two forums on heads.

[=Enigma=]

Whoops, my bad. Good info nonetheless.

[montoya_fan01]

Whoops, my bad. Good info nonetheless.

Absolutely ! !

[Arne]

I may get flamed for saying this, but it seems to me that for most of us - whose cars will not be involved in high level competitive events - all this fuss about which head is better is purely an academic exercise. The difference in performance on a mildly built engine for primarily street use between say, an E31 and a large chamber E88 for example is probably not significant. So for most of us, go with what ever head you've got, or whichever one is in the best condition.

Now, if you are competing at a high level, there is more reason to be concerned. But even then, a 10 HP improvement due to a better head might be compensated for by more skillful driving or better brakes.

[montoya_fan01]

I won't flame you but I submit that even at the lowest level of grassroots competition (street racing for bragging rights, or autocross for example), any potential advantage is worth exploring. A competitor will use all the power (and driver skill) at his command to beat his opponent. If someone is serious about winnig he cannot afford to ignore any potential advantage.

It's true that there is no substitute for driver skill, but an additional 10HP is nothing to sneeze at either.

[280z1975]

I won't flame you but I submit that even at the lowest level of grassroots competition (street racing for bragging rights, or autocross for example), any potential advantage is worth exploring. A competitor will use all the power (and driver skill) at his command to beat his opponent. If someone is serious about winnig he cannot afford to ignore any potential advantage.

It's true that there is no substitute for driver skill, but an additional 10HP is nothing to sneeze at either.

In my life outside of my Z car I compete as a Professinal cyclist where we measure our horsepower in the much small measurement of power, Watts (I put our a MAX instanatinous effort of roughtly 1.5HP when I sprint , but at the pro level it's not that bad.

Street racing and autocross, like cycling, there is a huge degree that can be overcome at the lower levels of competiton through just technic and experince. Where as at the top level just a differeance of as little as .2% can be what wins you an even. I have seen shorter timed evens be lost by .001 of a second!

So as I advise the youngsters that get into the sport, all the flash equipment in the world won't make the differance between winning and loosing. For most people a weekend of driving school or practice will make the differance a weekend of upgrading a head on the engine will make and won't cost them as much in the end. If the driving school won't make you any "beter" and the extra HP is what is keeping you from making the cut at your local autocross event then by all means go for the upgrade.

BTW, I have about DOUBLE invested in my racing bicycle, not including my three other bicycles, than I do in my Z :nervous: , but then again my bike is my job and my Z is for pleasure. So Arne, your post wasn't that much in vain, it's just up to everyone to decide if that extra money is worth the benifit.

My two cents ...

[montoya_fan01]

but if your competition has been to all of the schools and you have also, AND he's still a better (naturally gifted) driver than you, can you afford to ignore more power? I don't think so, not if you're competing to win.

If the competition doesn't take advantage of everything available to help him win, then perhaps you can afford to do the same, but I say WHY would you want to? Certainly 10HP isn't going to replace driver skill, but if your competitor has BOTH, you had better have them both as well otherwise you're wasting your time competing.

[Arne]

I won't flame you but I submit that even at the lowest level of grassroots competition (street racing for bragging rights, or autocross for example), any potential advantage is worth exploring.

Agreed. But as I said, for most of us - whose pure street cars will never see any track time - I believe the differences between the various heads are minimal.

[240ZMan]

Agreed. But as I said, for most of us - whose pure street cars will never see any track time - I believe the differences between the various heads are minimal.

As a single data point, when I still had my L24 stock motor with 200k miles, I damaged the valves on the stock E88 head. Rather than rebuild it, I picked up an E31 head that had been freshened a few thousand miles earlier, but was otherwise stock. The rest of my engine was stock, except for the pertronix ignition. While I had hoped I'd feel some big difference in power, the reality is that if I was honest with myself, I couldn't feel any difference at all.

Of course, the rings were tired, I used my "butt-o-meter" as my only performance measuring tool, etc. It was not a controlled test at all. But to Arne's point, for a stock motor driven on the street, the choice of head probably makes little difference.

A modified motor on the track, now that's a different story

And lest I give anyone the wrong impression about myself, I've tried dozens (so far) of mods to get that last bit of performance out of my Z. I won't bore you all with everything, many of which others from this site have tried. For me, the chance to participate in all this bench racing, followed by experimenting in my own car, is a big part of why I have my Z and hang around this site.

[280z1975]

but if your competition has been to all of the schools and you have also, AND he's still a better (naturally gifted) driver than you, can you afford to ignore more power? I don't think so, not if you're competing to win.

If the competition doesn't take advantage of everything available to help him win, then perhaps you can afford to do the same, but I say WHY would you want to? Certainly 10HP isn't going to replace driver skill, but if your competitor has BOTH, you had better have them both as well otherwise you're wasting your time competing.

All the points you make are quite valid. At top level I complete at in cycling I look for any way to obtain a better power.

But the point Arne and I are making is that for people who aren't at the top (in cycling you start off at a level 5 in the US, I can't really say what I could equivalent it to for racing of Z's) it would make no sense for them to start off with a top end bike or the best of the best. I suspect for a general perspective of the Z members here 95% of us wouldn't notice or 'need' the change a head would have. For us it would be better placed.

BTW, a common practice in cycling to reap the benefits of your power is efficiently, or dropping weight. It's just my outside view. but if someone who is a weekend racer and wants the benefit of extra power but can't afford I would suggest taking out EVERYTHING (spare tire, passenger seat, etc.) that you don't need. That would make the car run much better and faster.

Ok, back to the point we both agree. If you RACE (serious competition or job) , get all the extra horsepower you can

Still for me a weekender (non-serious completion or fun weekend track racer) would be better off just learning to race. If i ever get into racing cars (who knows, maybe after my cycling career) I wouldn't race my Z, but rather build up another Z or 'race' only car. Cause when I do things, it's never to the half and half perspective .