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tonyasap

Datsun 240k Gl 1977 Needing Advice Or Feedback?

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I gotta agree, but... (just for fun:devious: :P )... there was a GT-R type S20 engine sold from Australia in the mid 1980's:devious: :devious: LOL

Jim,

I think you'll find it was a 432 type S20 rather than the more common ( :bunny: ) GT-R type.

Whilst we are straying onto the subject of Prince products here, I thought you might be interested in the contents of my friend's shed. He used to drive this car to college every day back in the 1970s. When he graduated, he parked it up and bought a Z. It hasn't been on the road since. Good 'barn find' - eh? :classic:

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Alan, does that car have a dent in the left front guard, right at the nose?

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Alan, does that car have a dent in the left front guard, right at the nose?

Not as far as I remember. Do you know the car / owner? Its in Japan, by the way - in case that wasn't obvious from what I wrote.

Unfortunately I didn't take any front-end photos - apart from the engine bay - as I couldn't get far enough away from it to get it in frame ( with it being face-in to the garage ). It was also bloody dark in the back there........

I took more photos of the car parked up next to it; a fairly unrusty Japanese-market HS30 'Fairlady 240Z' with some nice period accessories:

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Jim,

I think you'll find it was a 432 type S20 rather than the more common ( :bunny: ) GT-R type.

Whilst we are straying onto the subject of Prince products here, I thought you might be interested in the contents of my friend's shed. He used to drive this car to college every day back in the 1970s. When he graduated, he parked it up and bought a Z. It hasn't been on the road since. Good 'barn find' - eh? :classic:

:cheeky: Hiya Alan,

Yair,... I know what it really was (is!) ..but I had to get the GT-R tie in somehowLOL ...No one else but you could have possibly tripped me on this:p

Thanks for the barn find photos. That Japanese climate is positively cruel to the classics:( Do you think it may live again?

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Couple of corrections there fellas.

The Prince Skyline S54B was sold in Australia from 1964 to 1967.

The NISSAN Skyline S54BE3 was sold in Australia in late 1967 and 1968.

Rumour has it that there were a few NISSAN Skyline S54BE3 units in 1969 although I have yet to actually see one with proof of 1969 sale.

Nissan PGC10's and later KPGC10's were sold in Australia (or at least in South Australia) in limited numbers, suffering from competing with both the 510 and the 240Z. From memory the KPGC10 was several hundred dollars more than a 240Z and didn't perform as well!

In South Oz the S54B in both Prince and Nissan guise actually sold quite well, quickly being recognised as a serious performer.

There were apparently NO GTR C110's sold in Australia for compliance reasons, although a very limited number of 240K KHGC110's were sold as GT's.

A genuine 240K GT DOES have the GT designation in the ADR plate, so if a supposed GT shows up without that in the ADR plate it ain't one of Nissan's 240K GT's.

Aside from the ADR plate, the intake manifold on one of Nissan's GT's is considerably different to the production 240K, along with a few other details.

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Thanks for the barn find photos. That Japanese climate is positively cruel to the classics:( Do you think it may live again?

Actually, I reckon it looks worse than it really is. It is structurally sound, and very complete. It just needs a lot of time and a fair bit of money spent on it.

Hopefully it will live again. If not in the hands of the present owner then in the hands of somebody else. It has lasted this long in storage after all.....

I should imagine the soft trim parts would be the hardest part of a restoration on one of these?

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HS30-H is right, not too bad to restore.

Soft trim is not too hard and although a limited run for the correct upholstery pattern gets a bit expensive it can be done.

Back to TONYASAP, do a restore and then think about a mild modification program.

These are a nice car in ride and handling, keep that character.

If you want a ball-tearer pick up another car for just that purpose. How about an SR20DET powered 1200 coupe? I've seen one of these wild combos on the street on South Oz!

Completely unrelated but interesting that the S54 has the chrome trim divisions across the tail lights - we've got both with and without and no idea of which was used on what or when!!!

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Nissan PGC10's and later KPGC10's were sold in Australia (or at least in South Australia) in limited numbers, suffering from competing with both the 510 and the 240Z. From memory the KPGC10 was several hundred dollars more than a 240Z and didn't perform as well!

Proper S20-engined PGC10 and KPGC10 models officially sold in Australia? That's a new one on me.

Or were they something else other than proper GT-Rs?

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Proper S20 engined!

I considered the PGC10 and then the KPGC10 became available from the dealer I was working through.

A LOOONNNNGGGG serious think about a KPGC10 back in '72, eventually abandoned the idea in favour of a 240Z.

The S20 was seriously attractive but I have a recollection of a price difference of something like A$570 in early '72 which was a LOT then.

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Proper S20 engined!

I considered the PGC10 and then the KPGC10 became available from the dealer I was working through.

Like I say, that's a new one on me.

So, what happened to the cars that they sold in Australia? I presume some people actually bought them? Are there any left? If not - what happened to them?

Have you got any period press / advertising / sales info? Any other documentary evidence?

Call me a doubting Thomas if you like, but I've never heard of proper S20-engined C10-series GT-Rs being officially sold anywhere outside Japan. The only car I know of - and this is a huge exception, and quite a unique case - was bought by Ewold van Bergen in South Africa. It was a very early PGC10. As far as I am aware, that's still the only C10 or C110 GT-R outside Japan.

Alan T.

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Miles, how sure are you that "the Prince name ceased to exist" after the Prince-Nissan merger? Sure the Skylines sold as Nissans from then on but I would have expected a similar story to Australia in the way they handled badging and advertising. I'm not saying you're wrong, just wondering if you could expand on that a bit?

Lachlan,

I really don't know other that what I've read . . . . and that is once the merger took place, Nissan was the name and Prince ceased to exist in Japan. The Prince motorheads were still there, designing cars, the Prince division of Nissan was still there, and Prince designation on chassis numbers was still there (PGC10, KPGC10, PGC110, KPGC110) but the Prince name on the cars was kaput. No offense taken, just repeating what I've read.

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My cat's breath smells like cat food:nervous:

Yeah, Jim, it's all in good humour. That's the problem with these internet forums - sometimes hard to tell whether people are serious or not. I take everything here pretty light hearted - no point getting upset about what's written on the internet.

Then there are some people who take the internet far too seriously. LOL

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Alan,

If you had the right dealer most anything could be obtained, as so often happened in Aus.

There was at least 1 KPGC10 sold to an RAF pilot then stationed over here and was frequently seen in Woomera SA.

afaik, he shipped that car to Germany when he was posted there.

Pretty sure there was no advertising done, in fact info on the cars was VERY hard to locate so it and any others would almost have been what we would now call 'grey market' cars.

I have been told be rellies in NZ that they knew of the occasional PGC10 and KPGC10 over there. Although I have no evidence of it, it would be no surprise because they imported some odd things if the buyer wanted it.

Similar circumstances with bits for the 240Z I bought instead of the KPGC10.

We wanted triple Mikunis, Option 1 gearbox, 4.3 LSD but no such things were supposedly available through Datsun in Australia. The dealer I worked through, also my main sponsor, was able to source everything needed from Nissan Japan.

The Nissan name was then pretty much unknown here, so that would have presented difficulties with the Skyline badging and is possibly the reason that C110's were called Datsun 240k instead of Nissan Skyline. I still have a Nissan jacket from 1972 which I wasn't allowed to wear, and was given Datsun jackets instead.

Maybe 'Nissan' was still considered too 'Japanese', too similar to 'Nipon' for the marketing people! (don't forget Aus was a lot closer to the Pacific war the UK)

A few years later a similar thing happened with the 1975 Toyota Celica where the 'official sourced' cars were all LT's with a single two-barrel carb.

A dealer with connections (he had won several trips to Japan for his sales efforts) decided he wanted an ST twin carb version and knew a mate wanted a GT twin cam.

He got them, although God knows how the factory explained the variations on the ADR plates! (ADR is Australian Design Rules, and every car built from about 1970 was supposed to have one attached if sold in Australia)

The GT I have photos of, 'cause I owned it!

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Peter,

Good one, now /dummy spit ...... dummy spit/ will have a whole new meaning!!!

btw, i wish my cat's breath was that good , maybe sometning to do with the mouse (furry type) he ate earlier! Sometimes it doesn't bear thinking about.

Art

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aarc240 - looks like you got what we call in America "factory special order" A car ordered to the customer's specifictions. The dealers don't like this, becaue they can't sell you something they have in stock, and will try hard to make you reconsider. Maybe that's what happened in OZ?

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This information on C10's being available in South Australia is GOLD aarc240!

As Alan said, it's news to me too. As an owner of one of 5 KGC10's (that I know of!) in Australia, I would love to see anything relating to the C10 generation of Skyline in Australia:classic:

You do mean cars actually landed for sale from a dealer showroom and not just "available" through the right contacts I hope. :paranoid:

Many years ago I did hear of a connection between a South OZ Prince Skyline GT racer, a dealer and the Prince Factory, but it could not be substanciated....too much time gone by, that sort of thing:(

I always believed the first boat load of S54B's arrived in Feb. of 1965? Maybe this only relates to NSW? The S50 series 4 cylinder Skyline was around in 1964.

You sound like you've been around these Skyline beasties for a decent amount of time Art! it would be great to hear more about you and your experiences (the performance Japanese car and motorsport kind!). Sounds like South Australia had a lot to offer the keen performance Skyline fan:)

Cheers,

Jim.

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Miles

You would be right with that, these would have been essentially 'factory special order'.

Didn't cause much grief for the dealers though, not too many carried the sort of stock quantities common on floor plans in the States.

Some even prefered the specials, gave them extra kudos with the factory in sales competitions. That tip came from a guy I went to school with who is now one of if not the largest independent Toyota dealers in South Oz and maybe Australia.

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Jim

I reckon 'available through the right contacts' would be pretty accurate although at least one KPGC10 sat on a dealers floor in Adelaide for a few weeks before going to Woomera.

Itinerant residents of Woomera being individuals posted from several points around the globe tended to go get what they wanted so we saw some really unusual vehicles. Higher than average payrates helped too.

Not connected with Nissan/Datsun, anyone here seen a Subaru FF Sports ??

It was a 1400cc twin carb full time four wheel drive sedan that made Cooper S's and Lotus Elans look like slugs - and one dude brought a brand new 68 model to Woomera. That shook up a few in the local sporting car club!

I know who you mean with the Prince racer/dealer/factory connection and yes, too late now to get the proof we would love to have. Apparently that relationship went through the Prince years in South Oz and then went offshore with Nissan cars.

Appears that the first boat load to Sydney was preceded by a much smaller consignment to South Oz with the first cars being available around Xmas 1964 but that is only anecdotal evidence from car nuts who were around then.

I mean actually in a position to buy something which I sure wasn't!

btw, does your KGC10 have a L20 or S20? I always thought that only the P cars were S20 but couldn't verify it. Just curious, 'cause either way it's a rare specimen.

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If you had the right dealer most anything could be obtained, as so often happened in Aus.

There was at least 1 KPGC10 sold to an RAF pilot then stationed over here and was frequently seen in Woomera SA.

afaik, he shipped that car to Germany when he was posted there.

aarc240,

Thanks for the additional info.

So, there was at least one KPGC10 in Australia, and it then went to Germany? Sounds like it was a 'personal import' to Australia rather than an officially-marketed product.

Pretty sure there was no advertising done, in fact info on the cars was VERY hard to locate so it and any others would almost have been what we would now call 'grey market' cars.

I thought you meant official factory-backed sales with advertising / marketing / promotion behind it. My mistake.

I have been told be rellies in NZ that they knew of the occasional PGC10 and KPGC10 over there. Although I have no evidence of it, it would be no surprise because they imported some odd things if the buyer wanted it.

I have heard a lot of anecdotal evidence of 'interesting' cars being bought and sold here in the UK over the years too. Unfortunately, most of it turns out to be either complete fabrication or that "my friend's dad's cousin's postman's uncle's sister's son used to have one of those twin cam versions - but he sold it...." kind of tale. I've lost count of the number of times people have come up to me in my ZG and told me that they "used to have one of them" or in fact "used to have a genuine factory-built race version with the twin cam motor" :rolleyes:

I still hear the occasional tales of "ex-Works rally cars" in somebody's shed and the "432 in a lock-up in north London" ( er, that'll probably be my 432R replica project actually ), but the sources of the stories are usually not what they are claimed to be. I'd LOVE it if some exotica did turn up occasionally - but I'm afraid most of it never actually arrived in this country in the first place, or was lost long ago. The pond is all but fished-out. :ermm:

Alan T.

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Alan

You might have missed this bit:

/quote

The Nissan name was then pretty much unknown here, so that would have presented difficulties with the Skyline badging and is possibly the reason that C110's were called Datsun 240k instead of Nissan Skyline. I still have a Nissan jacket from 1972 which I wasn't allowed to wear, and was given Datsun jackets instead.

Maybe 'Nissan' was still considered too 'Japanese', too similar to 'Nipon' for the marketing people! (don't forget Aus was a lot closer to the Pacific war than the UK)

unquote/

Sensitivity to this was a lot greater than most people realise, something as residents of the Woomera Weapons Research Establishment test area during the height of the Cold War we were VERY aware of.

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Alan

You might have missed this bit:

No I didn't miss it. I read it and understood what you were saying, but I don't think the possibility that 'Nissan' might have reminded people of 'Nippon' had anything to do with official sales of PGC10 and KPGC10 models in Australia ( which is what I was interested in hearing about ).

After all, if Nissan had wanted to sell the PGC10 and KPGC10 models in Australia, they would simply have re-badged them - just as they did with all the other Nissans they sold as 'Datsuns' there.

So that single KPGC10 that you report was sold in Australia was probably badged as a 'Nissan', and was effectively a grey import, yes?

I think it is clear that Nissan never made any attempt to market the S20-engined models outside Japan. Some of their dealers outside Japan obviously knew about the cars, and a couple of them might have imported one ( or even two ) privately or even semi-officially - but it clearly wasn't a factory-backed sales programme, or we would have seen the cars displayed at shows, and tested by the motoring press, in Australia.

Alan T.

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I considered the PGC10 and then the KPGC10 became available from the dealer I was working through.

A LOOONNNNGGGG serious think about a KPGC10 back in '72, eventually abandoned the idea in favour of a 240Z.

The S20 was seriously attractive but I have a recollection of a price difference of something like A$570 in early '72 which was a LOT then.

So, did you actually look at the KPGC10 in the showroom? Or was this actually a matter of looking at brochures / spec sheets / pictures etc for comparison with the 240Z?

Was it the case that the dealer told you he could get a KPGC10 in from Japan if you paid for it?

If a PGC10 / KPGC10 / KPGC110 was ever displayed in a dealer's showroom in Australia, I would have thought there would be photos / press reports etc at the time. Surely it would have been seen as fairly unusual / exotic, and the dealer would have used it as a promotional tool to attract attention?

I'm just finding it hard to believe that we are talking about anything more than one or even two unofficial 'grey imports' here.

Did I miss the point? :ermm:

Alan T.

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Some further background on early Datsuns in Australia. Seemed appropriate to throw this into the mix. This thread has been well and truely hijacked already.

Its from a magazine (Unique Cars), so who knows how accurate it is...

The first post war Datsuns arrived here in 1958

Sir Laurence Hartnett ('Father' of the Holden) negotiated the sole distribution rights with Nissan Motor Company importing 100 bluebird sedans with which to tempt potential dealers.

Among them were two well-known motor sporting personalities; Arthur Wilie, who was appointed Victorian Distributor, and Arnold Glass, whose Sydney-based Capitol Motors would become Australia's largers Datsun dealership.

1966 marked a major change in direction for Datsun in Australia. After terminating Hartnett's import franchise, Nissan took controll of its own product distribution and arranged for local assembly of the bluebird; initially by Pressed Metal in Sydney, then at the former Volkswagen plant at Clayton, Victoria.

Throughout the 1970s, Datsun flooded the Australian market with new models. In September 1972, the 1600 was replace with the larger, but equally respected 180B. Three months later, the seriously unattractive 240K arrived, signalling the beginning of a design era which valued function over form.

Nissan announced in 1983 that Datsun branding of its products would be discontinued.

- Cliff Chambers

Unique Cars December 2002 Bygone Brands - Dat's all, folks.

Maybe after terminating Hartnetts import franchise the dealerships had some say in what cars they wanted to import and sell, at least untill Nissan became more established in Australia? The Article also states that Capitol Motors Sydney were responsible for importing the 49 Silvias (CSP311 variety) that were sold in Australia.

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Alan

The ONLY Skyline rebadged as a Datsun in Australia was the C110 and was then called a 240K with NO reference to Skyline.

Not the smartest marketing move by Nissan as they lost all connection to the heritage available as a Skyline so the 240k was regarded as just another passenger car (including the GT variant). They didm't even have the smarts to link the 240z and 240k as having the same base engines!

afaik, none of the other models badged as Datsuns were known as other than Datsuns in other markets (ever heard of a Nissan P510 for example?). Correct me please.

Yes, that KPGC10 that I considered was a Nissan Skyline GT-R badged car and it was physically there on the showroom floor.

No big write-ups in the press? Sure weren't and not too surprising considering how plain the C10 was compared to the Datsun 1200 coupes, 1600SSS and 240Z's sitting on the same floor. It was a seriously ordinary car in their company, even bordering on ugly!

During those years ('68 to late '71) there was little consistency in the Datsun / dealer structure and many dealers went their own way with importing. That really didn't change until the 1600 proved it's worth and made Japanese cars more acceptable to the general public.

The quoted example of the CSP311 Silvias through Capitol Motors was one, Skyline GTB's in late '68 and early '69 through Commonwealth Motors Broken Hill were others.

There WAS no control and certainly no franchise to prevent it.

Maybe you can call it 'grey market' but it was at least officially sanctioned otherwise brand new cars requiring the usual dealer preperation would NOT have been available.

I have little doubt that Nissan did not 'officially' export S20 cars, but equally it is clear that official sanction was required to source those that did go out.

I've never heard even a rumour about any KPGC110 even privately imported, and would be really surprised if any came in for any reason. There would have been NO chance of selling a DOHC triple carb 150HP 1150kg car at anything like a profit when Holden was busy selling cars of slightly less weight with a 190hp 3300cc triple carb 6 called an XU1 Torana.

Crikey, the Datsuns and Nissans of the time were not even considered by the petrol heads who had 375hp V8's, 310hp 6's and 190hp 6's available with their beloved Ford, Chrysler and Holden brands!!!! Even my WIFE had one of those 375hp V8 Fords!?!

I guess you haven't lived with the 'older' generation of Australians who remembered all too well the Japanese as the 'Yellow Peril' during WW2 or you would realise that ANYTHING 'Nipon' was seriously frowned on for a long time. NEVER under estimate the sensitivity of the Japanese people to criticism, particularly in those years with regard to their part in WW2.

Miles can probably give a more direct take on the CURRENT attitudes in Japan to accurately recording that part of their history.

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Sorry All. I've been away a while. Please feel free to debate on this thread.

It has provided quite some reading and has been very interesting.

I'm leaning towards restoring to original as it is pretty much that way. The Interior is still like out of the factory (no cracks etc) just a little dusty. Still has a straight body and all original grilles, bumbers and badges. I was trying to find some pics' to post in her former glory but having trouble locating them. Soon as I do I'll post.

Thanks for your input and keep threading.

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