2 hours ago, Carl Beck said:

It would be good to keep in mind that Pierre constantly “hosted” Photo Shots for Nissan PR/Ad. as well as all the magazine and news articles in period. In many photos you’ll see hundreds of new OEM parts laid out on the floor or benches for the Photo Shoots. Video’s as well - these "props” were left sitting all over the place. I wouldn’t try to determine any process based on staged prop’s sitting around the shop. 

It also seems very likely that at least some of the components you describe as 'props' went into the restoration of the VZ Program cars, so they are pertinent. If we are discussing odds & probabilities, my bet is that many of them ended up on the cars in question.

2 hours ago, Carl Beck said:

What we actually see is, of the 35 VZ’s accounted for,  24 of them got their original engines,11 did not.  68% got their original engines.

Did the 11 get new engines? Or rebuilt engines sourced through AER? If they got new engines did Nissan create a new engine serial number tag for the engine bay or leave the old engine number?

Each car has its own provenance. Which is part of what Dean Huff is trying to put together for his, I assume. Good luck.

2 minutes ago, HS30-H said:

It also seems very likely that at least some of the components you describe as 'props' went into the restoration of the VZ Program cars

I've noticed that many of your comments are based on your own assumptions. You seem unable to accept that Nissan could have possibly made mistakes or cut corners or created an image for marketing purposes that was not a true representation of reality.

Some of your statements seem purposely vague also, like "went in to the restoration of". What does that even mean? Were they installed in engines that were installed in the cars? No assumptions please if you choose to answer.

1 hour ago, zspert said:

As it's clear I don't know what I'm talking about this will be my last post to this subject. Cue the cheering throngs!

Hi Mike - You know what you are talking about, you made that clear. Your talking about your experience and knowledge. If someone at Nissan or at Pierre's told you there was no effort to retain original engines with their cars - that is what someone told you. You weren't there everyday, neither was I. I'm sure we both got a lot of information as well as misinformation and rumors out of that entire crowd 30 years ago.

29 minutes ago, HS30-H said:

It also seems very likely that at least some of the components you describe as 'props' went into the restoration of the VZ Program cars, so they are pertinent. If we are discussing odds & probabilities, my bet is that many of them ended up on the cars in question.

Yes - quite possible, even likely as they ran out of NOS parts.

The images from the Japanese magazines suggest that every part was inspected as shown in the pictures. The reality seems to be that the parts were inspected by employees of AER. Then a Shop Rep signed off on the work. And apparently, re the metal particles, much of the work had to be reworked or cleaned up. That seems to be the reality based on the weight of the evidence presented so far.

It's just the way it it. More than "fairly obvious". Disappointing to some, interesting to others.

30 minutes ago, Zed Head said:

Did the 11 get new engines? Or rebuilt engines sourced through AER? If they got new engines did Nissan create a new engine serial number tag for the engine bay or leave the old engine number?

Each car has its own provenance. Which is part of what Dean Huff is trying to put together for his, I assume. Good luck.

Of the 11 I'm aware of, 2 got different engines by the choice of the owners. One now has a Rebello 3.0L and the engine for Mr. Crain's Z was custom built with performance enhancements (not an AER engine). Don’t know if the 1 with the Rebello had its original engine or not…it wasn’t recorded/reported by the owner. Pretty sure other than that 2 the other did get AER rebuilt engines. Need more data to be certain..

I spent a couple hours with Mr. Crain at the Amelia Island Concourse, where he was regularly one of the Judging Staff (along with Peter Brock etc). We spent some time talking about Mr. K, Nissan and Mr. Crain's Vintage Z.  I hadn’t tried to track where the original engine out of his Z went… I’ll go back an look in my files/notes..

As far as I know - The original engine serial number were left on the engine bay tag. Owners that reported a different engine in the car - knew it did not match the original listed on the tag.

Edited 3 hours ago3 hr by Carl Beck

3 hours ago, Carl Beck said:

In the 10 months between 19 March 1997 and  16 Jan 1998 Nissan sent 42 engines to AER for remanufacture; they were all received by Nissan as of 12 May 1998. When they were received by Pierre,  they were assembled and hot tested, before installation.

@zspert wrote - “…...there was NO effort, none, to keep engines and transmissions with the cars from which they came.”

If that was the case, then we are seeing an amazing statistical aberration. If 42 engines were sent out, then received - and no effort was given to return the original engines to the cars. The odds of any 1 car receiving its original engine would be 1 in 42 ie 0.024 or  2 in 100.

What we actually see is, of the 35 VZ’s accounted for,  24 of them got their original engines,11 did not.  68% got their original engines.

Have a look at the Larry Chen's Vintage Z video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_TjHwA1xgE at the 27:24 mark you can see the Master list. There is a column that lists Matching# and M for yes, N/M for no. There are 14 N/M listed. There is also a column for engine#.

11 minutes ago, SpeedRoo said:

Have a look at the Larry Chen's Vintage Z video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_TjHwA1xgE at the 27:24 mark you can see the Master list. There is a column that lists Matching# and M for yes, N/M for no. There are 14 N/M listed. There is also a column for engine#.

Good Point - - Yes, I have had that list for a long time. There are 59 Z's listed there and looks like 14 didn't have their original engines. Although at first glance, the original engine serial number are listed for a few, perhaps taken from the data tags? It will take a while to see if any of them are way out of line, with what would be expected... Also might account for the other 9 not getting their original engines.. I'll have to cross check

Edit... I wanted to add, that list is of the Z's Pierre received, 2 Z's went to Les Canaday directly from Nissan. A couple others appear to have gone to Datsun Alley directly from Nissan as well. So two or three of the VZ's are not on that list.

Edited 2 hours ago2 hr by Carl Beck

20 minutes ago, Carl Beck said:

that list is of the Z's Pierre received

@Carl Beck thank you for the clarification. In an effort to determine the shop that worked on my car I emailed Les. He told me: "The cars I did were in the 23000 serial number range." It seems my car was done at Pierre's. I'm still thinking my car may likely be the 3rd one in this YouTube Video. If you have a copy of this speadsheet with Pierre's list, can you post it?

1 hour ago, Zed Head said:

I've noticed that many of your comments are based on your own assumptions.

I'm an advocate for the likelihood of ****-up over conspiracy. And educated guesses based on cross-referenced evidence are for sure better than assumptions. I make an effirt to go with the former wherever possible, but conversing with you is sometimes like herding cats.

1 hour ago, Zed Head said:

You seem unable to accept that Nissan could have possibly made mistakes or cut corners or created an image for marketing purposes that was not a true representation of reality.

On the contrary, I have an ever growing capacity to believe and accept - if not expect - that our beloved Nissan of today can make a mess of anything it gets itself involved in, especially so when considering the caliber of some of its current feted international 'personalities' and representatives.

But I've not been citing any Nissan-sourced "images for marketing purposes" in our recent exchanges, so you can park that one in the next available space.

1 hour ago, Zed Head said:

Some of your statements seem purposely vague also, like "went in to the restoration of". What does that even mean? Were they installed in engines that were installed in the cars? No assumptions please if you choose to answer.

There go those pesky cats again. I was referring to the parts/components photographed on location by independent photographers working for two different Japanese magazines. Seeing as the articles were specifically about the VZ Program process it seems to me a fairly high probability (shoot me if you think it's an assumption too far...) that the parts would end up on VZ Program cars. Clear enough? Hope so.

1 hour ago, Zed Head said:

The images from the Japanese magazines suggest that every part was inspected as shown in the pictures. The reality seems to be that the parts were inspected by employees of AER. Then a Shop Rep signed off on the work. And apparently, re the metal particles, much of the work had to be reworked or cleaned up. That seems to be the reality based on the weight of the evidence presented so far.

I don't know how you've made the jump to "...the parts were inspected by employees of AER."? Isn't that (careful now...!) an assumption on your part? I think you're not allowing for a little chaos. We've already heard anecdotal evidence from people actually involved (rather than Armchair Enthusiasts TM) that not all of the engines/engine components were processed at AER. Whatever the number - however small - it has to be included as part of the story. The incomplete engine and two cylinder heads pictured in the Japanese magazine articles (NOT at AER) suggest that we should tread carefully around what actually happened with AER's early involvement.

And yes, I stick by my "Clearly - and fairly obviously - the engines were rebuilt and warrantied", unless you honestly believe otherwise? Are you again suggesting that some of the VZ Program cars didn't get engine rebuilds? If so I'd like to see any supporting evidence you might have.