Kathy & Rick

Say, Mate: Have you got a friend in forensics who might lend you a hand? All Z Best,................................Kathy & Rick

Being the original owners of our '70 is our rare privilege, so we don't have a tale to tell. But our good friend Frank Thomas, Membership Director of the CT Z Car Club and owner of HLS30-02807, does. He experienced a 23 year break in ownership which will make some of you cry. I don't know how to transfer you, so I'll just give you instructions: 1. Go to CTZCC.com 2. Click "Discussion Forums" in the left column 3. Select "New Member Introductions" 4. About 20 threads down: "My INCREDIBLE Z Car Story" While you are on the CTZCC Site, why not just join the Club? It's FREE, and I'm sure that each of you has something to offer while also being the recipient of some first class knowledge and friendship! All Z Best,................................Kathy & Rick

Good advice, Chris, that's the same answer I would have given. The best solutions I can offer comprise any one or any combination of the following: (1) A nice tight fitting "Z Bra" (2) An air dam/stone guard option affixed to the front edge of the trailer (3) A pickup-type cross-bed tool box mounted across the trailer tongue (4) A full width sweep across the bottom rear of the towing vehicle (5) Longer-than-usual mud flaps behind the rear tires of the tow vehicle Now you will think I am a liberal politician since I am very good at spending other peoples' money: :stupid: (6) An enclosed trailer All Z Best,............................Kathy & Rick

Right on, Wally, good catch! 4/70 is absolutely right. I don't know how I made that error, but I did, and I apologize. ~Rick~

Auto body repairmen who have been around for awhile keep a common hair dryer in their tool stash. The hair dryer puts out enough heat to soften the stickum on mouldings, decals, and that type of thing, without damaging the paint, chrome, or whatever finish the stickum is adhered to. Just take it nice and easy, pulling gently on the item being removed as you move the hair dryer along slowly. Sort of like welding in reverse. FWIW,................All Z Best,......................Kathy & Rick

Big AMEN on all of the above. I'm like Mike B, "the more originaler the better." An inline 6 of 150 HP is more than I can use in an area where speed limits over 55 MPH are rare. Of course, I NEVER exceed them. I think the money would be better spent in maintaining what we already have. Although if I were given one, I wouldn't turn it down. I would sell it for whatever I could get for it, to increase the maintenance and show kitty. All Z Best,................................Kathy & Rick

Hi, Arne, "long time no see." I agree with everything you have said above. May I please add that the car appears to be an early 4/71 build, since it falls into the range of 02781 to 03486 that I have established so far. But as for the originality of the ENGINE, you have already stated correctly that the only reasonable way is to match its S/N with that on the data plate on the R/F strut tower. I think I am safe in saying that the S/N of the engine NEVER matches the VIN of the chassis; it is always a little higher. Of course if someone has found the engine in another car that does match the VIN of his car, and done a swap, that would negate the word "NEVER." This may be as good a time as any to ask whether anyone knows what happened to the first 2000 or so L-24 engines? And what happened to other engines that seem not to have found their way into cars? The spread between VIN and engine S/N widens with time. Examples: HLS30-00016, engine L24-02079 (Jim Frederick's car, lowest known S/N of an engine still operational in a Z Car) (diff. of 2063) HLS30-00013, engine L24-02085 (diff. of 2072) HLS30-00171, engine L24-02311 (diff. of 2140) HLS30-06289, engine L24-009625 (diff. of 3336) HLS30-86105, engine L24-108801 (diff. of 22696) SOME could have been determined by QC to be too defective to release right at the factory, but we know that around 500 were installed and released between 9/69 and 11/69. We know that the crank harmonic problem curtailed production during 12/69, but very few were released while that was being rectified. I was involved with Z Cars virtually from the beginning, but never heard of any Z Cars having a complete engine replaced as a "repair part," nor of any Datsun dealer keeping complete L24 engines in the Parts Department inventory. Perhaps the engine serial numbers began with #2001, or 2079, or some number other than 0001 for some reason unknown to us. So, this disparity continues to baffle me to this day. Maybe some of our Z friends who know more about this than I do, could help me? All Z Best,...............................Kathy & Rick

About 4 years ago we were heading southbound on the Merritt Parkway when at a distance I saw the rear of a car that looked like an 240/60/80Z. I accelerated to way over the speed limit in an attempt to catch it, but never did by the time we reached our exit. But I got close enough to see that it was a #113 metallic green 1972. I remember the incident clearly since I hadn't seen one on the road for several years, and haven't seen one on the road since. That's just the way it is in the Rust Belt. FWIW,...............All Z Best,..................Kathy & Rick

WOW!!! Do I like that car!!!! Maybe you could contact Jim Jackson, VP of the New York Z Car Club (Jim260Z@NYZCC.com). He has a 260Z Fairlady 2+2 and seems to be quite knowledgeable about those cars, and is willing to share what he has learned. Hope to meet you in Nashville if we are able to make it. Jim and his wife and little girl are already committed to it. All Z Best,...........................Kathy & Rick

BIG AMEN TO THAT!!!!! Once you get "bit good" you stay bit, and hopefully you become very contagious!!!!! All Z Best,..............................Kathy & Rick

This is the best news I've read in quite some time. A woman who not only recognizes a Z Car when she sees one, but likes them enough to even wrench on them! You are indeed a rare (but not extinct) species! In the early-and-mid 70's there were a lot of female types (not a preponderance, but a lot) in Z Clubs. That highlights one of the glaring shortcomings in most Z Clubs nowadays: since Kathy and I and our cars made our emergence from a 30+ year hibernation last fall, we observe that Z Club membership (much less participation) now seems to be 95% "a guy thing." Something drastically wrong with that picture! Maybe if "us guyZ" would get our heads out from under the hood, or out from under the car for a minute, we would notice that, and go back to Basic Marketing 101. Seems to me that if we looked around, we might just find some women of whatever age group who would like to be included but are probably intimidated because the guys hang out together and "do their car thing" without paying them a lick of at- tention. I can't tell you what goes on in the female mind, but I wouldn't be inclined to show much if any interest if I were ignored or shunned, either. Now I'm far from being "the brightest bulb on the tree," but from a membership standpoint, I don't know any guy in his right mind who wouldn't be inclined more strongly toward joining and participating in a Z Club with a substantial female contingent. And I can't see why any gal who is a Z owner, or the wife or GF of one, wouldn't want to join if there were an opportunity to participate and learn. At least that's how it used to be "back in the day"................ So, April, thanks for relighting my candle and getting me to thinking about "what could be." Maybe if enough folks read this contribution and act on it, you will have inspired a major resurgence in Zeedom. All Z Best,..................................Kathy & Rick

So, since I have never done this: :stupid: Am I to assume that the replating doesn't add so many 1000ths of an inch (or the metric equivalent) to the thread pattern of the nut or bolt that its basic specification is altered? For an exaggerated example, if I were to plate a 12mm bolt, would the plating make it a 12.25mm bolt? Is this compounded when plating both a nut AND a bolt to be used in conjunction with one another since the (lack of) tolerance would be essentially DOUBLED? (Increased external diameter of bolt plus decreased internal diameter of nut). Just curious......................~Rick~

Wow, Mike!-- You were so right, a slow reader like me would take ninety forevers to read all that, much less digest it! Maybe if I can get someone to print it for me, reading it like a book might make it easier! You're right, Jimbo has an awesome collection. The first thing I said when I showed up for the event was, "I think I died and went to Z Heaven!" It was like I was entering a Z museum, with all those gorgeous cars. And Carl trailered in his restored Baja Z, and others were there as well. (All VIN which follow are to be prefixed HLS30-000. Sorry for any confusion or annoyance I might have caused anyone by not using the complete VIN earlier). I was hoping to see Chris' #26 and 27, but he was unable to make it. I saw so many beauties I don't recall which was which other than #16 and #19. But I am sure I saw #48. With a 2/70 production date, that would indicate a car which was pulled from the assembly line for some reason, probably corrective, and reinserted after the correction had been made. And which corroborates Alan's statement that in the early days of produc- tion, quite a few aberrations can be found. All Z Best,........................................Kathy & Rick

Alan, thanks for your input. The fact that Nissan Shatai declares a produc- tion of 785 units in Dec 69 seems to come from a good source. I have records of numerous pre-Dec cars as high as John Coffey's #502, but to my knowledge #418 is the highest VIN I remember seeing. As I mentioned earlier, Carl Beck's #587 is the only Dec car I've ever seen. Frank's #721, down in TX, is a Jan 70 car that I have not personally seen. But I do know the owners of #965 and 966 personally and have seen those cars firsthand. So I can attest to #418 and #965, which as a WORST (BEST?) case scenario gives us a POTENTIAL of 547 cars built during Dec 69. Assuming #502 to be a valid Nov car and #721 to be a legitimate Jan car reduces that to 218. VINs for Nov 69 with rare exception shouldn't be higher than #586, consider- ing that Carl's #587 car is a Dec 69 unit. Thus the possible population shrinks to 134. And if there are Jan cars with lower VIN than 721, well............... All the same, I can still accept Nissan's "production" figure of 688 for US, even if they weren't totally complete and released till January. It is fairly easy to visualize 688 units being built in December, the first 12 of which got on the boat while the rest waited around for acceptable engines. The VIN having been engraved in the firewall early on, it would not be much of a stretch to see the VIN and the engine S/N stamped on the R/F strut tower and L/H door pillar data plates as the last step before heading for the ship, once the modified engines had been installed. More simply stated, the 688 figure is probably accurate, but since only 134 or fewer (12?) made it out , the rest (554 or ?) received January data plates despite having had much of their build actually performed in December. Which in turn skewed the January figure (by VIN) to about double normal. All Z Best,................................Kathy & Rick

Well, hello again, Alan, how've you been? Thanks for your insights; I had been in Japan, but well before the 240Z and its international equivalents were introduced, and for nowhere near the 27 years of your experience. You always broaden my perspective into an International one, and that is much appreciated. Once again I apologize if I created any offense: my mindset keeps gravi- tating to the American market for the Z Car. It isn't as though I didn't realize that some had been exported elsewhere, but my experience is totally in the US market. I hope that I satisfactorily addressed the fact that what I was discussing was the model HLS30 here in the States. I'll bet that the info that Kats provided us somewhere else is a lot more accurate than mine, as he seems to have had some access to the actual production records in-country. It stands to reason that those would be more accurate than mine, which were garnered over the years, and to this day still have gaps between "the lasts and the firsts." Now if I could learn to use this computer I might be able to find Kats' and Nissan's info! Lon, thanks too for your observation. Yes, that must have been a pretty severe problem to have interrupted production of such a hot product. It looks to me that even though the engine internals were undergoing modifi- cation, the rest of the car must have still been built and set to one side till the engine problem was resolved. Because come January 70, 1000+ cars were released, which is just about twice the Nov 69 and Feb 70 numbers. And Lon, I agree with you. To see a US 240Z of 12/69 production must be like seeing one of those rare undersea creatures: few people ever do, and if they do, they don't know what they are looking at. I had no knowledge of the one in Kansas. If you could share some of the details by PM........or on this thread would be better so that everyone interested could "hear"..... According to my records, the only 12/69 that I have ever KNOWINGLY seen in 40 years of Z-watching is Carl Beck's #587, and even that wasn't till this past December!!!!! All Z Best,.....................................Kathy & Rick

Hi, dclamm, Rick here. I didn't catch your first name................ You were right on target when you said about 20,000 Series 1 were produced. The highest Ser 1 Vin I know of is #20425 (1/71) and the lowest Ser 2 VIN I know is #22021 (2/71). So the break must have occurred somewhere in that 600-unit spread, wouldn't you say? And now I will corroborate your other assertion about Datsun recognizing that they had a big hit (6000 Sep 69 thru 6/30/70 and 15000 Jul 70 thru 1/31/71.) Catch this, and notice the gradual upward trend (very broad figures used): Sep 69 12, Oct 183, Nov 465, Dec 12 (production curtailed- crank problems). Jan 70 1048 (carryover from Dec) ,Feb 532, Mar 488, Apr 705, May 1190, Jun 1248, Jul 1529, Aug-Sep Insuf data, Oct 1609, Nov 3104, Dec 2804, Jan 2288 Feb-Mar about 3000 ea, Apr to Aug about 4000 ea. Then the REAL "ramping up," as dclamm called it, beginning w/about 5000 in Sep. Production seems to have peaked in late 72 (early in the 73 model year) at about 8000 per, and then simmered down to a steady 4000+/- till the 260Z began in Aug 73. FWIW,................All Z Best,....................Kathy & Rick

Hey Gary, Rick here. Great job in describing the procedure. Would it help to jack up the right (passenger) side of the car to make the engine block vertical, so you could get an even distribution of the ATF?-- Just wondering............. All Z Best,................................Kathy & Rick

Hi, Dave, Rick here. I admire your creativity for being tool-handicapped; fine job. Our "new" 79 ZX also has some interesting collections between the battery tray (bracket) and fender, such as the dirt, leaves, pine needles, and such that you mentioned, plus a very large, dense mouse nest complete with acorn shells, thread, insulation, etc. This mouse must have had a degree in architectural engineering!! Since your hinge didn't offer you the clearances you needed, I appre- ciated the "heads-up." I think what I will do instead begins w/using the valve stem stubs I scrounged up, as grommets. If I bore holes barely large enough to accept them, I can paint the holes, install the "grommets", and not chew the paint off every time I remove the battery tray due to each sheet metal screw going into the hole in the "grommet." I suppose a machine screw would work just as well, as long as it fits tightly enough to get a good "bite" into the wall of the "grommet." FWIW..............All Z Best,.......................Kathy & Rick

WOW!! That engine bay is STUNNING!! That alone was worth the price of admission. But what I liked best was the giant flow-thru air vent where the hatch used to be. With an innovation like that, who needs A/C? All Z Best,.................................Kathy & Rick

I think I am the one who is driving MYSELF crazy, katcarl1! (Some people must think I have already arrived there; that must be why I am sometimes called Crazy Rick!!!) What are your real names: Kathy and Carl?-- The VIN number thing has been a fascination of mine, maybe even a fetish, ever since I first joined my first of many Z Clubs back in the early '70's. Some Club members had VIN#s 409, 418, 7__, 965, etc., and that got the whole thing started. It hasn't stopped for 40 years. I want to thank Ron and Mike once again for sharing their experience, expertise, and library of resources for my (our) benefit. I hope it is as enjoyable and educational for others to be involved in a "Z-History" discussion as it is for me. So Carl, I can see where your car would be an interesting study because #17645 should be a solid 12/70 (not 11/71), being between #15320 and #18124 on my chart. I understand how a car could be pulled off the line for some corrective reason and reinserted a month later, but this is nearly a full year difference. That would drive me crazy, too. Even if it were an 11/70 (not 11/71), I would not know how to account for a lower VIN# being in production a month BEFORE its contemporaries. This is where we have to drag Ron back in for enlightenment. It would be great if Carl Beck should also happen to tune in. I just happened to roll back to IdahoKidd's post. His #49052 is a nice solid early 10/71. But his #59995 goes back to my question in the last paragraph, as that should be a very late 12/71. But somehow it, though a higher VIN#, somehow found its way into the mix two months early. This is fun for us guys with white hair. We don't have to worry about it turning dark again! All Z Best,....................................Kathy & Rick

Thanks for the feedback, Ron & Mike, I appreciate it. One of the main reasons I love this site so much is that we can learn from one another, and you guys help me a lot. To answer Mike's question: Latest 8/71: 43160 Earliest 9/71: 42717 (slight overlap) Latest 9/71: 47545 Earliest 10/71: 48713 (big gap there for me to fill) So Mike has a good point which I never thought of, namely: that some numbers may have been omitted to start a model year at an easily referenced point. Still seems odd to me, though. All Z Best,.....................................Kathy & Rick

Jonny Rock from WA, who frequently posts here on Classic, has #1704; he brackets #1694 from the other end. FWIW,...Rick

Hi, Ron, Rick here. Long time, eh? Ready for Stanley Cup? I am sure what you said is accurate, but it is puzzling to me, since #46001 would seem to be a mid-Sept 1971 build. According to my records, the earliest 9/71 VIN I know of is #42717, and the latest is #47545. There may be a few lower and a few higher VINs for Sept, as I show a small gap on both the Aug end and the Oct end of the Sept records. But based on the sample and assuming a degree of consistency in day-to-day production, #46001 would have been built on or about Sept 21. We know of the strange things that happened in the first year of production (1969-70) whereby a car with a VIN 1000 lower than another could show a build date of a month or two later. But by Sept 71, exactly two years into Z production, those types of things had smoothed out. Therefore a model year changeover date in midmonth seems even more strange to me. There probably is a reasonable answer, but I don't know what it could be. FWIW...............All Z Best,......................Kathy & Rick

And all this time I have been so mistaken. I thought sure it was an engine which being jury-rigged every which way into a convoluted, hopeless, unreliable, inefficient mess, was so named after Al Franken. FWIW............All Z Best,........................Kathy & Rick

It's hard to make a diagnosis when we don't know anything about the car, such as model and year. If I assumed it to be a 240Z, 1969-73, I would say that that "foam rubber stuff" was what was used as an anti-rattle insulator between adjoining metal panels. Unfortunately the insulator's principal function eventually proved to be a trap for water and mud which then had no escape, thus contributing to the infamous rust problem that early Z's experienced. I've not heard of any solutions other than replacing panels or welding in sheetmetal patches, so I will leave other recommendations to others who know more about that than I do. All Z Best,..................................Kathy & Rick