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Mike

Rally anyone?

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Hi ev'rybody,

let's go on to the essentials of datsuns works engagements to fill the white spots on the map one by one.

As far as my sources are correct Datsun engaged itself with Z cars OUTSIDE AFRICA 1st times with 4 Group 3 240Zs in Sept. 1970 in GB (RAC-Rallye). Drivers were Rauno AAltonen, Tony Fall, Edgar Herrmann and John Bloxham. A 5th Z was for services. All 4 cars had problems because of differential overheating. Only Aaltonen finished, having 3 best results on special stages in between.

In 1971 a Z finished in 5th position at Rallye Monte Carlo. Also in 1971 Tony Fall won the Welch-Rallye. In 1972 Aaltonen finished 3rd in Monte Carlo. Also in 1972 Shekar Mehta became 6th at the greece Akropolis Rallye and Tony fall finished 4th in Portugal. In 1973 Aaaltonen was long time in 2nd pos. at the Monte Carlo until a fuel line broke. Also in 1973 some works drivers startet as privateers. So Mehta damaged a Z in Maroc and Hans Schuller, Herrmanns Co-driver in Africa, started in Germany. The licence plate of this car was SU 6470. The portuguise importer prepared 2 Zs (drivers nn) and in NORTH AMERICA at the "Press on regardless -Rallye" the couple Smiska finished 2nd in '72 and 3rd in '73.

The 260Z was no big success . In '74 a 260Z finished 5th in Portugal. In '75 Schuller was engaged in Le Mans.

AFRICA:

In 1971 Datsun prepared 4 Zs for the East African Safari. The engines for Africa did not base on the Z 432 but on the L24 with about 210 HP, 200 km/h top speed with a long 4th gear (4,625:1). Totla weight was 1250 kg. Herrmann/Schuller startet with car #11, #12 was driven by Aaltonen/Easter,#31 by Mehta/Doughty and the 4th Z was run by Jack Simonian. Herrmann finished 1st in front of Mehta. Aaltonen became 7th. In '72 3 Zs started (Aaltonen/Fall, Mehta/Doughty and Herrmann/Schuller). Herrmann finished in 5th, Aaltonen in 6th and Mehta in 10th position.

In 1973 the 240Z became a 2,5 Litre, 240HP, 205 km/. 89 teams started, only 19 finished that 5000 km event. Mehta was the winner over all. In 1974 Datsun engaged 3 260Z in East Africa. They finished 5th and 6th with Kallstrom/Bilstram and Ramtulla /Jivani (3rd team n.n.) Only 16 of 99 teams finished that tough 5100 km event.

How many Zs were engaged as "mules" (training cars) or for services I don't know Perhaps anybody knows the id-#s of the works cars so that we can trace their lives.

Rolf

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Hey Rodd, Alan, and Guus, (and anyone else?)

Just so you guys know there is some interest from the states as regards this thread - I can think of at least two of us for sure... then again I am a displaced French citizen and my friend is of Dutch decent - so maybe we are just another bunch of Euros too then, eh? :)

If we haven't contributed it is probably because we are probably not quite as versed on the matter as you all...

-e

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Evidemment je souhaite aussi le bonjour a Fred de La Rochelle (tres jolie ville d'ailleurs). Und also einen "Halo" für Herr Doehring (ich wahr in München gebohren aber mein Deutsch ist ein bissien schlecht - enschuligung.)

-e

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Originally posted by EricB

Hey Rodd, Alan, and Guus, (and anyone else?)

Just so you guys know there is some interest from the states as regards this thread - I can think of at least two of us for sure... then again I am a displaced French citizen and my friend is of Dutch decent - so maybe we are just another bunch of Euros too then, eh? :)

If we haven't contributed it is probably because we are probably not quite as versed on the matter as you all...

-e

EricB,

I think you got it wrong. You are not the only two who are watching.

Have a look at this link http://www.240z.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=22

It shows this thread has 928 hits!!

ROFL

Guus

Z-point

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I wish that I could contribute to this thread as well, but I think I'll just sit back and watch this one... by the way Im the Dutch jerk Eric was reffering to.

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Thanks for the kind words from EricB & sennavsprost - its nice to know that its not just a few demented idiots like me who find this interesting.

Doehring, you have collected a fair bit of data about those Works rally cars. However, I keep hearing about more and more little events and testing that we never heard about. Sometimes the Works team would ship cars back to Japan after a few events and refurbish them, after which they would be brought back to Europe, Africa or Australia to act as practice cars / chase cars, or as entries for local drivers. As far as I am aware, Nissan have never released to the general public any information regarding the chassis numbers of the Works rally cars. The local team base organisers ( such as Old Woking Service Station in the UK, and D.T.Dobie in Kenya ) would obviously know which chassis numbers they had at any particular time, but I should think that only Nissan's Competition Department staff themselves would have all the data about which chassis did which event.

There is a lot of misleading information in the English-language books that cover the subject of Nissan's competition history. We cannot trust all that we read, as it usually has not come from the horse's mouth. I would have thought that there is an opportunity for the definitive book on the S30 type Z race history to be written, but any volunteer would have to do a hell of a lot of research!

By the way Doehring, did I make it seem as though I thought that some of the Works rally cars used the S20 engine in my previous post? Sorry about that if I did - but certainly the Works rally cars only ever used the L-series sixes ( with the later ones using the "LY" Crossflow version ). What I was talking about was the similarity of the Z432-R ( PS30-SB ) bodyshell to the shell construction of the Works rally cars. That is something that few people realise or comment on.

Here is an "on-line" present for Guus...........

post-2116-14150791980933_thumb.jpg

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Hey sennavsprost!

your avatar is going to start some new threads if you are not careful! Did you know that the no.15 car still exists? It's part of the Harada Collection at the Kawaguchiko Motor Museum in Japan, and they sometimes bring it out for demonstration runs. That S20 engine just screams.............

Here's another little scan on the thread of our Works rally car discussion. This pic. shows a Works car at Nissan's rally test course in Japan. They did a fair bit of simulation out there before they sent the cars out of Japan for the rallies..........

post-2116-1415079198113_thumb.jpg

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At the risk of starting a whole new thread, here is a picture of what I am REALLY interested in.

This is a picture of Works driver Kenji Tohira at the 1971 Japan Grand Prix in the GT race ( in the GT-2 class ) in a Works ( SCCN ) HS30 "Fairlady Z".

Just in case you heard that the Z was not very successful in domestic races.....................

post-2116-1415079198124_thumb.jpg

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Oh please, Uncle Alan tell me one more story...

I was browsing yesterday night on the Jap web-ring and I realised that every country has it's own vision of the Z.

Interesting to see all those G-nosed cars and the fat wheeled Z, I could kill for those!!! That made me think (Ouch, not used to that!) is there any notorious Japanese Z goddess, like Big Sam on UK, or the BRE, Newman’s… ?

You’re right about the race book, maybe we could start with a new Historical page on this site, what do you think moderator man ?

Anybody up to the task ?

Fred

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Howdy Mike,

you started that thread and I think your intention was to find out who is rallying today with our "elderly ladies" and what our experiences and technical hints are. I#m interested in that ,too.

Now the thread changed a bit and at the moment some of us are becoming experts that work out Datsun's works rallying history step by step. Together we are strong, I hope. So Mike, let me propose to split the thread, one for exchange of experiences, one, where the experts can work on history. What do you think and how is this accepted by the "expertgroup" ?

EricB and Sennavsprost

welcome to the "club of experts". Perhaps you can find out some informations on the "american" Zs of the early 70s in the world

rallye championship, for instance on the Smiska's car in the '72 and '73 "Press on Regardless". There must have been another 240Z within the first top 5 in '71. Can you get pictures ?

Hi Alan, Fred , Sean , Guus and friends from "down under"

we will have a longe weekend now and I will try to structure the information that I can find in my rallying books from the seventies

(pictures, result lists, stories) , in my Z book collection and in my collection of articles on Z rallye cars. I hope to find a scanner so that I can copy the photos for you. Perhaps together we can fill the gaps in information. Alan is right, some informations are confusing and sometimes I have the feeling that Datsun used the same licence plate for different cars. Maybe I can also find Hans Schuller. I heared he lives in Germany again. He should know a lot. The german Z club already contacted Graf Goertz, the Z designer, who became a member to the club.

Guus, yesterday I first times saw the 1:18 model #5. Was it Exoto or Kyoshi ? Whatever it is, it is very detailed, it is great, it is a must

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Gutten täg

That's as far as my German go... my English is poor and rusty, my German is disloved.

You are not far from the truth, it was an ice race at Serres-Chevallier, in 1973, well done!

Fred

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Bonjour Fred,

merci pour la medaille d'or. The car seems to be one of those that have done the Monte Carlo before, the licence plate is a Japanese one and in the middle of the fron window you can see that stripe from the additional window heating that the works cars had. Interesting to see a Z in the sandwich of 2 Renault Alpine at an Ice event.

Thanks for the picture !

Rolf

:)

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Dear Alan, Cher Fred,

When I was in Japan last (last week of April) I did pick up a new Fairlady book which covers of course the whole development of the street car and its various clay model iterations prior to finding the production version (of interest to me since I am to be an automobile designer) but also a pretty thorough section on competition covering both Japanese and American circuit racing and the Rally effort over the rest of the world. It IS in Japanese and off the top of my head I can't remember the author's name (in order to check if some of you already have this book in which case it would be a moot point)

I can however describe the appearance of its cover - perhaps this might ring some bells with someone? Hard bound book with a white dust cover on which there is a large "Z" - the subtitle being as I recall "The Fairlady Story" and at the bottom next to the author's name there's a side view illustration of one of the BRE Z cars.

On a different topic, the latest issue of NosHero is KICKASS - when you see the cover you will buy it instantly. There's an old orange race 432 that is apparently built to the hilt. In the book I've mentionned above this same car is pictured there too. I can scan & upload if interested.

-e

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Doehring: that model yesterday was the Kyosho 1:18 12900yen in Japan - Here stateside I've seen them for between $35 and $75.

To all: Should we have a web space created and upload all of our scanned images there and use that to create our history book? I think I can come up with some good ones and I have existing web space somewhere else where I could store my images for the time being - just need the time to scan them in I guess....

-e

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Originally posted by EricB

Doehring: that model yesterday was the Kyosho 1:18 12900yen in Japan - Here stateside I've seen them for between $35 and $75.

-e

Hi guys,

speaking about Kyosho's here's a place made from the Kyosho brochure. There you can find all the inns and outs.

http://home-1.worldonline.nl/~zzxnl/Z43218.jpg

http://home-1.worldonline.nl/~zzxnl/240Z18.jpg

http://home-1.worldonline.nl/~zzxnl/240ZG18.jpg

http://home-1.worldonline.nl/~zzxnl/240Zrally18.jpg

http://home-1.worldonline.nl/~zzxnl/240Z43.jpg

Guus

Z-point

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Originally posted by Doehring

Howdy Mike,

you started that thread and I think your intention was to find out who is rallying today with our "elderly ladies" and what our experiences and technical hints are. I#m interested in that ,too.

Now the thread changed a bit and at the moment some of us are becoming experts that work out Datsun's works rallying history step by step. Together we are strong, I hope. So Mike, let me propose to split the thread, one for exchange of experiences, one, where the experts can work on history. What do you think and how is this accepted by the "expertgroup" ?

A new thread is perfect, but I suggest we take all our post with us!

Guus

Z-point

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Originally posted by Doehring

Hi ev'rybody,

let's go on to the essentials of datsuns works engagements to fill the white spots on the map one by one.

As far as my sources are correct Datsun engaged itself with Z cars OUTSIDE AFRICA 1st times with 4 Group 3 240Zs in Sept. 1970 in GB (RAC-Rallye). Drivers were Rauno AAltonen, Tony Fall, Edgar Herrmann and John Bloxham. A 5th Z was for services. All 4 cars had problems because of differential overheating. Only Aaltonen finished, having 3 best results on special stages in between.

In 1971 a Z finished in 5th position at Rallye Monte Carlo. Also in 1971 Tony Fall won the Welch-Rallye. In 1972 Aaltonen finished 3rd in Monte Carlo. Also in 1972 Shekar Mehta became 6th at the greece Akropolis Rallye and Tony fall finished 4th in Portugal. In 1973 Aaaltonen was long time in 2nd pos. at the Monte Carlo until a fuel line broke. Also in 1973 some works drivers startet as privateers. So Mehta damaged a Z in Maroc and Hans Schuller, Herrmanns Co-driver in Africa, started in Germany. The licence plate of this car was SU 6470. The portuguise importer prepared 2 Zs (drivers nn) and in NORTH AMERICA at the "Press on regardless -Rallye" the couple Smiska finished 2nd in '72 and 3rd in '73.

The 260Z was no big success . In '74 a 260Z finished 5th in Portugal. In '75 Schuller was engaged in Le Mans.

AFRICA:

In 1971 Datsun prepared 4 Zs for the East African Safari. The engines for Africa did not base on the Z 432 but on the L24 with about 210 HP, 200 km/h top speed with a long 4th gear (4,625:1). Totla weight was 1250 kg. Herrmann/Schuller startet with car #11, #12 was driven by Aaltonen/Easter,#31 by Mehta/Doughty and the 4th Z was run by Jack Simonian. Herrmann finished 1st in front of Mehta. Aaltonen became 7th. In '72 3 Zs started (Aaltonen/Fall, Mehta/Doughty and Herrmann/Schuller). Herrmann finished in 5th, Aaltonen in 6th and Mehta in 10th position.

In 1973 the 240Z became a 2,5 Litre, 240HP, 205 km/. 89 teams started, only 19 finished that 5000 km event. Mehta was the winner over all. In 1974 Datsun engaged 3 260Z in East Africa. They finished 5th and 6th with Kallstrom/Bilstram and Ramtulla /Jivani (3rd team n.n.) Only 16 of 99 teams finished that tough 5100 km event.

How many Zs were engaged as "mules" (training cars) or for services I don't know Perhaps anybody knows the id-#s of the works cars so that we can trace their lives.

Rolf

Way way back I started to make a webpage as a contribute to our beloved Z cars

Now it’s a matter to finish it. Let’s go for it!

http://home-1.tiscali.nl/~zzxnl/victory_lane.htm

Guus

Z-point

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Originally posted by Doehring

Howdy Mike,

you started that thread and I think your intention was to find out who is rallying today with our "elderly ladies" and what our experiences and technical hints are. I#m interested in that ,too.

Now the thread changed a bit and at the moment some of us are becoming experts that work out Datsun's works rallying history step by step. Together we are strong, I hope. So Mike, let me propose to split the thread, one for exchange of experiences, one, where the experts can work on history. What do you think and how is this accepted by the "expertgroup" ?

Hi Doehring,

I'm up for anything...... I haven't been a part of this thread in quite a long time and I come back to find just TONS of information about rally racing.

Yes, I am interested in getting started and trying to determine where I can make my first step into this type of racing.

All of this content is perfectly OK and I am learning a lot from it, so, please don't stop doing what you are doing. This forum was set up for the free exchange of information, so, please use it!!

-- Mike

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Guus,

you started a good overview on your z-point page "victory lane".

I took that as the basis, checked it (sometimes you jumped a line for instance) and added all informations I could find on Zs in world rallye championship ( and some oteher) events between 1970 and 1976. Next week I'm out of my bureau and I will present my results to you all a little bit later. There will still be same white spots on the map that we can shurely fill together.

Rolf

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Hi everyone -

I haven't checked this forum out in quite a long time, but went racing this past weekeng and got the "bug" back. So I thought I'd check out the racing forum here, and this was the first thread I looked at.

All I can say is, "WOW"! This is great. Sorry, but I can't offer anything to the discussion, but hearing about it from all of you is very interesting. I hope you will continue it here.

Perhaps it is because these cars primarily raced in series on the European and African continents, and media coverage of the events back then was almost non-existent as compared to today's events, that most of us here do not know more about them. The Indy and NASCAR have mostly been featured in the media here, and so that's what we've grown up with (well, until Speedvision, I guess!).

gary

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debriefing time!

I saw the Le Mans car!

Ok, after investigation, it is NOT the car that raced, I looked at all the "Alan pedigree spots" and most of them didn't match!!!

The owner then told us that it was a car that was imported from Japan by the owner of the Le Mans car????

It is still one of the best racing Z around here, fast, and well maintened.

Too bad that peoples have to brag when they already have products that stand alone :finger:

I had a good time, and I still have to sort out a few things on the history of that car, but I have plenty of time! I belong to the club :sleep: ZEN :sleep: de France after all.

Fred

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go to the race section of the photo album...

Thats the car, no race shots, too wet for my camera...

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Howdy friends,

having been sick at home for some days I spent my time studying books, magazines, videos and photos on 240 Z/ 260 Z in World Championship Rallies ( + some Non-World-Championship events).

Thanks to Guus who's "V ictory lane" is a very good starting point.

the order to read the following is: Event, Country, Driver/Co-Driver Starting#, Licence Plate #, Ident#, Result. Enjoy and perhaps you can answer the questionmarks!

1970 1st official works engagement in Torbay Rallye (GB) at Okt.

31st Tony Fall/Gerraint Phillips Starting# unknown, TKS 33 SA ?, ?, Result ?

RAC-Rallye (GB) Rauno Aaltonen/Paul Easter, 18, TKS 33 SA 695,

HS 30 0000 25, 7th

Tony Fall/Gerraint Phillips ?, ?, ?,?

Edgar Herrmann/Hans Schuller, ?, TKS 33 SA 694, HS30 0000 24, ?

John Bloxham/Norman Salt, ?, TKS 33 SA 696, HS30 0000 26, ?

There was another high speed tender car

1971 (Datsun published no more Ident ## !)

40th Rallye Monte Carlo (MC) R. Aaltonen/P. Easter, 62, TKS 33 SA 985, 5th

T. Fall/Mike Wood, 70, ...... 985, 10th There were 2 more supporting cars in the rallye, one co-driver was van Bergen. One of these cars was TKS 33 SA 987 (ex ....694)

19th East African Safari E.Herrmann/H.Schuller, 11, TKS 33 SA 1223, 1st Shekar Mehta/Mike Doughty, 31, ....1224, 2nd R.Aaltonen/P.Easter, 12, ..... 1226, 7th

Jack Simonian/Bob Garrish, ?, ..... 1227, ?

TKS 33 SA 1225 was a spare car at that event, ..... 1228 was High speed tender car.

(Welch Rallye (GB)) T.Fall/ ?, 3, TKS 33 SA 696, 1st

(Scottish Rallye (GB)), T. Fall/ ?, 4, TKS 33 SA 696, retired,

RAC-Rallye (GB) E. Herrmann/H. Schuller, 5, TKS 33 SA 3646, 17th

S.Mehta/Lofty Drews, ?, .... SA 696, 19th

R. Aaltonen/ ? , ?, ?, retired

T. Fall/ ? , ?, ?, retired

1972

41st Rallye Monte Carlo (MC), R.Aaltonen/Jean Todt, 5, TKS 33 SA 4150, 3rd

T.Fall/M.Wood, 20, .....4151, retired

20th East African Safari, E.Herrmann/H.Schuller, 10, ? , 5th

R.Aaltonen/T.Fall, 5, TKS 33 SA 4538, 6th

S.Mehta/M.Doughty, 8, ?, 10th

Ove Andersson/M. Davenport, 7, ?, ?,

20th Acropolis Rallye (Greece),S.Mehta/P.Easter, ?, ?, 6th

TAP-Rallye (Portugal), T.Fall/ ?, ?, ?, 4th

Chris Sclater/ ?,?,?,?

(7th Southern Cross(Australia)) R. Aaltonen/ Halloran, ?, TKS 33 SA 8075, 2nd

(Scottish Rallye (GB)), S. Mehta/ ?, ?,?,retired

Roy Fidler/Barry Hughes, 13, KEJ 1, ?

T.Fall/M. Wood, 4, TKS 33 SA 696, 7th

(Montana Rallye (Portugal)), Antonio Carlos/ ?, ?, ?, 1st

(Kenia 2000) S.Mehta/L.Drews, ?, ?, 1st

RAC-Rallye (GB), T.Fall/M.Wood, 18, TKS 33 SA 3640 , 18th

R.Aaltonen/P.Easter, 6, ?, 11th

R. Fidler/B.Hughes, 34 ?, ?

S.Mehta/Martin Holmes,26, ?,?

Press on Regardless (Michigan,USA) Jons/ Beckman, ?, ?, 2nd

(Rallye of Camelias (Portugal)) Antonio Carlos de Olivera/ ?, ?, GA-83-34, 1st

Olympic Rallye (Germany) ?/?, ?, VEC-MA 65, ?

(24 H Le Mans(F)) Martin Birrane/ ?, 47, ?, not qualified

I will go on 1973 -1981 later

Rolf

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