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DavidBoren

Looking to make a "square" L24 with LD28 crank...

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I know that experienced engine builders carry a bit of weight, but $5000 for rebuilding an L-series engine with OEM L-series parts, and some porting is ridiculous. I cannot get over that.

I could put an LS1 in it for less than the cost of having Rebello rebuild the L24. I really like the idea of keeping it numbers matching, but screw the "Purist" build.

get over it David. You are portraying rebello as a rip-off, and the business is well respected in the Z community. I really don't think you understand what goes into this kind of work-it's a little more then a 'mild port job.' 100HP per liter-think about it.

I guarantee you will have a hard time doing a 2JZ for less. Swapping motors is not easy and the Rebello just drops in place. If you value your time, then the 2JZ will cost way more. It will cost as much anyway you look at it.

What happened to keeping the stock numbered engine?

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The "Purist" build is $5000. Plus carbs (I asked for the triple-double carbs) and dyno, Dave says its closer to $7500. $7500 is way out of my price range.

For that kind of cash, I can forget the vanity of having a numbers matching car, grab a 2jz-gte with the transmission for $3000, sell the twin turbos, buy an ITB intake and six throttle bodies, and still afford any fab work required for the swap.

$7500 to stroke an L24 using an OEM 280z crank and OEM 240z rods and a little port work on the head? Nope. Not me. I may be inexperienced, ignorant, naive, but I am not freaking stupid.

I know that experienced engine builders carry a bit of weight, but $5000 for rebuilding an L-series engine with OEM L-series parts, and some porting is ridiculous. I cannot get over that.

Wow... :stupid:

I've tried hard to refrain from commenting but this is getting ridiculous. Taunting Rebello combined with the misguided thought of a "square" L24 is beyond funny. Sell your Z and buy a Supra or a Corvette, that's the best advice I can give you.

I recently rebuilt an L28. I did all my own work, besides machining and mounting the exhaust. I kept a spreadsheet of costs. Everything included (besides my labor), the build cost me roughly $5,500 and that's with having a good amount of parts on hand that I didn't have to buy. In this cost, I'm including everything engine related, i.e. fuel system, cooling, induction, exhaust, etc. I put hundreds of hours of my own labor into the build, which are unaccounted for. I visited Rebello's shop to help get my head setup, and I can say without a doubt that they ARE NOT rip-off artists. In fact, after having done this build, I'd love to just pay Rebello to build my next engine (if I didn't enjoy engine building so much).

You want a cheap rebuild? Go buy one of those $1,500 Datsun Parts LLC engines and see what you get. Quit dreaming and take a dose of reality. Rebello knows what they're doing and charge a very fair price for it.

Jeebus, the ignorance of the OP is ASTOUNDING.

I could put an LS1 in it for less than the cost of having Rebello rebuild the L24. I really like the idea of keeping it numbers matching, but screw the "Purist" build.

LOL Go for it. Let us know how it goes. Will you be keeping track of your labor cost for the swap?

Edited by LeonV

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I agree with Leon. The last engine I built was a 350 chevy which is fairly cheap to rebuild and I had $3500 or so in just the long block, no injection , exhaust or ignition. I did all the assembly work, motor removal and install.

The guys at Rebello build a good motor and they can back it up with numbers, experience and history. If you are good at what you do you aught to be able to charge a reasonable price for head work, machine work , parts selection, precleaning, assembly, start up, break in, crating it up and shipping it to your door ready to go into your car. There is no free lunch...

As for the swap it seems cheap up front but take Zed Heads advice and sit down and add up the nickels and dimes. That's where the swap gets expensive. New fuel lines, line adaptors, electric fuel pump, pressure regulator, fabbing mounts, cooling, exhaust work, etc. It adds up quick. $50 here $75 there before long you have spent some real money. This is not a critique or your notion to make a hybrid Z. Most guys do it for shear power but I doubt many do it because its dramatically cheaper. As a matter of fact many of the really cools hybrid swaps I have seen cost a lot more than 7k plus there are tuning headaches, unique problems to your swap etc. My 2 cents...

Leon the paragraphs are for you...;)

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Hi David,

Welcome to the club.

I'm not going to carry on about costs. Its been handled already by other posters and with good reason.

You can find a good design utility to help find interchangeable parts in the L series engines here: Engine Design Utility

Good luck and above all have fun ;)

Chas

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Rediculous may have been a bit out of line. I appologize to Dave, if he frequents these pages.

I have priced rebuild kits and other various parts for a mild performance rebuild and considered the machining and assembly costs. And I still find the price steep. I do understand that there are a lot of things that can cost a lot of money that may come up unexpected. I know that little costs add up fast.

I am just going to have what is in there checked and cleaned, ported, valve job, balanced, zero-decked, etc etc. Re-use everything that can be re-used. Pick up a quality bolt kit and gasket set. I will simply fix what is there, but I will fix it right.

I am not going to pay anyone $5,000 to rebuild that motor. Im just not.

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Hi David,

You have given conflicting data regarding the vin and circular Z emblem on the sail. There is a data plate in the rear of the driver's door well that gives the month and year of manufacture as well as the vin number. If it was made Jan 71 or before, it is a Series I.

If it is a matching numbers Series I car, I would suggest you find another L6 engine to modify and store the original engine intact. Used engines can be picked up reasonable, a matching number engine is irreplaceable. Whatever you pay for the second motor will be returned several times over when you eventually sell the car.

If the door data plate indicates the car is a Series II, have fun and do whatever you like.

I understand the car was given to you so your only sense of value is how it can fulfill you dreams. It will have a value after your dreams are realized though. I am only suggesting preserving value if only to help fund your next dream.

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checked and cleaned,

ported,

valve job,

balanced,

zero-decked,

etc etc.

Pick up a quality bolt kit and gasket set.

The major disconnect is here: "goal is 240rwhp", from your first post. Don't forget drive line power losses. Some say 15%, some say 20. 10% would be conservative, so you'll need ~267 HP at the crankshaft. 95 HP/liter, 1.6 HP/cubic inch. You'll need a lot of etc. to get there.

People are just trying to add more reality to your project. Still, for those that follow, keep track of your costs and report back. You'll probably be in the thousands just to get back to like-new with stock power levels, just on the engine, let alone the rest of the car.

I'm seriously interested in where you end up. The advantage of Rebello is that his engines are a package deal and the shop is set up to for the work. You'll spend a lot of time educating shops on how to do the work. And there will probably be mistakes made, that add cost.

Edited by Zed Head

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The major disconnect is here: "goal is 240rwhp", from your first post. Don't forget drive line power losses. Some say 15%, some say 20. 10% would be conservative, so you'll need ~267 HP at the crankshaft. 95 HP/liter, 1.6 HP/cubic inch. You'll need a lot of etc. to get there.

People are just trying to add more reality to your project. Still, for those that follow, keep track of your costs and report back. You'll probably be in the thousands just to get back to like-new with stock power levels, just on the engine, let alone the rest of the car.

I'm seriously interested in where you end up. The advantage of Rebello is that his engines are a package deal and the shop is set up to for the work. You'll spend a lot of time educating shops on how to do the work. And there will probably be mistakes made, that add cost.

That's exactly right.

Keep track of your costs and you'll see what it takes to even do a "refresh" on an engine. If you want to compare your costs to Rebello's, also track your labor hours. BTW, I guarantee that a simple rebuild will get you nowhere near the 240 WHEEL horsepower you quoted. Frankly, this whole thread is completely ridiculous. You come in here, putting some random, dreamed-up combo of parts together to make some magical "square" engine, "but the 2JZ is square, that means I'll make so much power". I'm paraphrasing here.

You explicitly claim that you lack any engine building experience but then lambast, and continue to do so, a company whose bread-and-butter is building these engines to a high standard. This thread would've been in the shed at HybridZ long ago...

"I am not going to pay anyone $5,000 to rebuild that motor. Im just not."

Your call. Doesn't mean that the $5,000 isn't worth it. Maybe once you've actually built an engine and tracked what you've spent (time and money), you'll realize that you didn't know what the hell you were talking about.

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Thank you all, once again, for the input. Believe me, I get it. I wont see 240rwhp. I already stated it was just a figure I manifested from the model number of the car. I thought it would be cool to have a 240hp 240z. Already stated I probably will not be able to achieve it.

The square bore and stroke is simply something I wanted to try if it was possible. I know a lot of people swap L-engine parts and I saw that there was an L-engine with the same stroke as the L24 bore... thought it was worth asking about.

I also already said that I know experience comes with its price. I know that having a specialist build my engine will probably produce a better engine than having a no-name shop rebuild it. I get it. I promise.

Why people insist on replying to this topic without any useful information pretaining to the actual topic, I dont know. I dont know a lot of things. I do not know how much it costs to rebuild a motor. I do not know how to rebuild the engine myself. I do not know to swap in a different engine. Last I checked, I thought that was the purpose of asking questions. Of course I want an unreachable horsepower figure. What the hell is the point of dreaming if you arent going to dream big?

I am speaking out my arse. I admitted my ignorance right off the bat. Thank you to the three, or so, of you that actually had something useful to say. The rest of you retards that jumped on the opportunity just to starting bashing my self-admitted ignorance should take a long walk off a short dock.

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Edited - Never mind - I do need to say though, that using the word "retard" in today's world is a sign of true ignorance. David needs to become more aware of the world around him, in general.

Edited by Zed Head

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Wow John, tried using Search Tempest for Craigslist entries within 500 miles of La Habra for 1970 Datsun 240z. It only came up with two hits on Craigslist, a Chevy powered Z in Yuma, and one in Fresno that was deleted by the author.

Of course I omitted posting for fenders, etc. What did I do wrong?

Don't know. I just did a search and came up with six 1970/71 240Zs, one of which is a shell. Maybe your search tool misses some.

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I am speaking out my arse. I admitted my ignorance right off the bat. Thank you to the three, or so, of you that actually had something useful to say. The rest of you retards that jumped on the opportunity just to starting bashing my self-admitted ignorance should take a long walk off a short dock.

Hi David,

I read this a couple of hours ago and its been bugging me ever since. My conscience tells me better, but I have to give my 2cents. I find it harsh and not knowing the situation of others could be offensive.

You will always get advice from different view pounts. Thats how a community forum works and the comments Ive seen in this thread are not so roughand all trying to get their point of view across. Its up to you to sort through the advice your given and make an educated decision.

For an eye opener you should copy your first couple of posts and post them in Hybridz. It would Literally be the roasting of DavidBoren.

With this post I will submit myself to the category "not the three or so". So be it.

Cheers chas

Edited by EuroDat

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Edited - Never mind - I do need to say though, that using the word "retard" in today's world is a sign of true ignorance. David needs to become more aware of the world around him, in general.

...How do I "retard" my timing in today's world then?:)

BTW I have a daughter who is special needs...

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I've read somewhere, maybe Racer Brown's book but don't remember for sure, about the benefits of a "square" engine. IIRC the concept involves having a bore that is at least equal to the stroke. By that criteria, a stock 240 is already "square".

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If $5000 is you budget, and you want a daily driver with some autocross potential, it might be possible. If compression and oil pressure are ok you could do cam and a valve job, total or partial refresh of the SU's, 2.25" exhaust and turbo muffler, lower it a little and refresh the suspension, new sticky tires and brakes. And lots of tuning, but that's more time than money. You'd cream a stock Z and a lot of other cars at the light and plenty power for twisty roads.

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...How do I "retard" my timing in today's world then?:)

Now there's some humor. If we were talking about timing, it's just an edgy joke. DB had ill-intent though. He could have made his point without that final paragraph. It's one of those things that you write, then think better of before posting, if you put the time in to thinking. DB's just not thinking things through very well. Now he's always going to be "that guy".

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So David, I intend this to address your original query, but could we start from a different perspective? You realize you may be the owner of possibly a very cool car, and you are enthusiastic. Excellent! Let's pose to the group here, where there is a lot of maturity; I for example, owned my first series1 when it and I were very young. It became a an 327 with raw power unbecoming its previously suave unassuming ability to knock any camaro or mustang back. I was young and enthusiastic. I still have a lot of enthusiasm for the series 1 I've been dragging around for about 25 years as the last car I intend to build. So let's say we've just had one of the coolest cars ever, not only for its historic interest, but great handling and power in its day dropped in our lap. I'll bet if you could get the brakes, suspension, interior, body, etc looking and rolling as you would like it to, you would be very proud of your car, assuming you and your fiancé are tight in a long term relationship, and there is a great joy in doing this sort of thing ground up with her support. As for the engine, see what condition it is in and could it run with minor expense. Then, pose the question: hey, if you just got hold of a series 1, what would you do? And you will find that question answered in a variety of ways. We've all seen or started tough projects that may never get finished. Fortunately, Z's have been so popular that pretty much everything is out there to build one any way you please. Folks here like a good project and will be very helpful. Start the dream over. It's still good. Learn as you go, do as much as possible yourself, and you will be driving it and grinning bigger sooner. Get a catalog and make an outline of each area, such as brakes. List every possible part you would need to simply rebuild the car to driveable. See how much money you have left to buy some nice wheels and new seats and stereo. You will have a hard time keeping up with installing all those cool parts on a basically stock Z. Then, when adding power or economy even, the engine work will declare itself. Lighten up a little, ask forgiveness, and not only will you find good advice, but people here who have extra parts and time and money-saving mechanical skills. My Z desire: the drivetrain from one of my other favorite cars, BMW e24 635. Why? Several reasons, but mostly because...I have it all, electronics and all, and lots of experience and huge amount of patience. Peace. Jim

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I do sincerely apologize for any offense caused by my language. If I had taken the time to read what I had written before posting, I would have not used such a word.

A lot of this build has just been day dreaming of what I could do. I get away from reality sometimes. And it was not right of me to get defensive and lash out at those of you whom where simply trying to give me a reality check.

Now that I have my feet a little more firmly planted on reality, I do have a couple questions...

I am absolutely okay with using premium fuel only in this car as it will not be a daily driver, so my target is somewhere around 10:1 compression... is there anything else I need to worry about raising the compression that high in this engine (assuming the engine is structurally sound enough to use at all)? Special head gasket? Head studs?

Will zero-decking the block, or shaving the head, negate the use of larger valves?

If I am not overboring to add displacement, and I just re-needle the SU carbs, would larger valves be worth the hassle?

And cam...? Something with good street manners that will compliment a high-compression L24. Do I have to go aftermarket, or would simply using a different L-engine cam be a better choice?

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Great Dave, glad you're back! You have just enrolled in a lifetime course of study. Most of us us have done considerable reading and debating the points you wish to know. Now, some questions for you. Have you dragged, pushed, begged the Z into a decent, comfortable, lighted work space? How long has the car been sitting? Inside? Outside? Do you have a clear title? All cars, new or customized, are a collection of compromises, i.e. power vs economy; I think you want power. Comfort vs tight handling: you have a smooth ride already. Highly modified, close specs motor vs starts easily and runs smoothly for your fiancé. I suggest you start a library of engine building literature and cruise forums to learn how the variables of generations of internal combustion motors have been designed. Too tight internal tolerances may work theoretically, but, due to heat and friction can result in seizures or rapid wear. Custom building is a jigsaw puzzle in which every piece has to work together for the whole to work. Study. Study. Study. At nineteen, when I decided my first needed more "old school" grunt, I took it to a reputable? independent German car shop for a better cam, valves, etc. $950 investment blew out the bottom of the motor within a month, and there was no recompense. So, since my buddies were into Chevys, we installed a modified 327. It lost its original flavor and handling characteristics. Too aggressive for my real needs. Sorry, another long post, but I'll conclude with the speculation that some purists would berate me for bringing up the name of Albrecht Goertz. Goertz was an industrial designer, having worked on BMW styling and arguably may possibly have contributed some elements of the original z and Toyota 2000gt designs. There are also familial connections between Datsun, Prince, and Mercedes engine designs. So, since I loved the big six from the overweight 635, I just thought a small personal tribute to Goertz would also be a great car. Ok. I put that out there in good faith I'm not offending anyone's sensitivities. My daily driver is a 1976 BMW 2002 with m42 engine, 5 spd trans, all electrical and electronics, FI, CPU, from a 1991 318is (a particularly nice twin overhead cam w/header) I added rack and pinion and a limited slip diff from other BMW models. Anyway, even keeping it in the BMW marque, and keeping fabrication to a minimum in order to easily replace parts, it was about three years of intense study and practice to get it right. Much improved over the original carb, 4 speed, truck-like behaviors. It has started and run perfectly in any climate conditions for about five years with no maintenance other than oil changes. Do it carefully, do it right, and it will work reliably. Patience and careful planning and extreme attention to details! Now, start with a good cleanup and try to rejuvenate any parts to functional and you will build confidence and skills. Good luck with your fabulous find! (Given any thought to electric? Ha!) Peace! Jim

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So, I'm laid up with a muscle strain, otherwise I'm not into other peoples lives, yet visiting this site frequently, I find it a really good site and your story interesting, that with good intent, no real knowledge of your situation, and no legal responsibility, I would toss this caveat: be sure you consider all parties involved or interested and transfer the title whether you register and plate it or don't, before you act. I hope that everything works out. On this site, pick a thread like "how do I change my head gasket?" Or, "what rims and tires?" You will learn a lot. Enjoy!

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