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Datsun 240k Gl 1977 Needing Advice Or Feedback?

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afaik, none of the other models badged as Datsuns were known as other than Datsuns in other markets (ever heard of a Nissan P510 for example?). Correct me please.

aarc240,

Yes, I have heard of a Nissan P510 Bluebird. They were sold as Nissans in Japan.

The reason we are discussing this question of rebadging Nissans as 'Datsuns' is because you linked the 'Nissan' brand name with the word 'Nippon' - suggesting that it might have offended Australian sensibilities so soon after the war. But I don't think there's much substance to such a suggestion; the engines of the cars had 'NISSAN' written in bloody great letters across the valve covers anyway.........

Yes, that KPGC10 that I considered was a Nissan Skyline GT-R badged car and it was physically there on the showroom floor.

There must be photos of the car somewhere, and some documentary evidence ( sales literature etc ) from the dealer. I'd LOVE to see that. I've never seen evidence of a complete S20-engined car displayed for sale outside Japan, and I still find it amazing to read. Only thing I have ever seen was a part cut-away display S20 race engine ( on injection ) which was shown by Nissan in Germany during the mid-Seventies. No other sightings whatsoever.

No big write-ups in the press? Sure weren't and not too surprising considering how plain the C10 was compared to the Datsun 1200 coupes, 1600SSS and 240Z's sitting on the same floor. It was a seriously ordinary car in their company, even bordering on ugly!

Sorry, but I find it hard to believe that NOTHING was ever reported in the motoring press. To my mind, that just makes it even more likely that we are talking about a one-off ( or possibly two-off ) grey import.

And I don't see what the looks of the KPGC10 have to do with it ( even though I'd say that it looked pretty damned interesting for '71 / '72 ) especially when you mention the 1200 coupe and 1600SSS ( which were pretty enough, but hardly drop-dead gorgeous ).

It was the specification of the KPGC10 that was worth talking about, and worth coverage in the press - especially considering that it's race success was current and on-going at the time.

Maybe you can call it 'grey market' but it was at least officially sanctioned otherwise brand new cars requiring the usual dealer preperation would NOT have been available.

I have little doubt that Nissan did not 'officially' export S20 cars, but equally it is clear that official sanction was required to source those that did go out.

"Officially sanctioned" to what level? I'm sorry, but this whole thing sounds like an exception that proves a rule. When you first mentioned official sales of S20-engined cars in Australia further back in this thread, I took it to mean that some kind of sales volume and dealer back-up was involved - possibly with some advertising and press coverage to back up the effort. Seems to me like nothing of the sort happened, and we are still talking about a one or two-off exception. I obviously made the mistake of reading more into than there ever really was ( ? ).

I guess you haven't lived with the 'older' generation of Australians who remembered all too well the Japanese as the 'Yellow Peril' during WW2 or you would realise that ANYTHING 'Nipon' was seriously frowned on for a long time.

On the contrary, I am well aware of the power of such feelings. My uncle was with the Chindits in Burma, and was taken prisoner by the Japanese. He was imprisoned as a POW first in Burma and then Thailand, and we all know what happened to those guys don't we? The Pacific War was very real here in the UK, so don't go thinking for one minute that this was a theatre of war that the British people have forgotten all about. I had to grow up with the stories ( and some of the irrational prejudices ) - so I don't think I need to be reminded of anything to do with war-related stories and their legacies.

NEVER under estimate the sensitivity of the Japanese people to criticism, particularly in those years with regard to their part in WW2.

Miles can probably give a more direct take on the CURRENT attitudes in Japan to accurately recording that part of their history.

I don't think I EVER underestimate it, for I have heard the stories of the 'victors' and compared them with first-hand tales from the mouths of the 'vanquished' - some of whom I now count as relatives. I have first-hand experience of Japan over a 20-odd year period which includes an extended period of living and working there. My partner's father was an Imperial Navy surgeon during the Pacific War years, and has recounted many stories of those times to me. I have also met the parents and grandparents of many friends and work colleagues, who eventually discussed things that they had kept quiet about for many years. I even met one friend's grandfather who told me - upon meeting me for the first time - that the last time he had seen an Englishman, he was looking at him down the sight of his gun.

Above all, I have come to believe that there was bravery, cowardice, chivalry and cruelty on both sides - and that the power of the victor to write the history and make the moral judgements afterwards did not change the fact that the common man and woman have always been the ones to pay for the greed, ambition and pride of a relatively small few. There are two sides to the stories, and most of us usually only ever hear one.

Alan T.

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They didm't even have the smarts to link the 240z and 240k as having the same base engines!

Not true Art, here's one example from a n Australian publication.

Take a close look at this ad

No big write-ups in the press? Sure weren't and not too surprising considering how plain the C10 was compared to the Datsun 1200 coupes, 1600SSS and 240Z's sitting on the same floor. It was a seriously ordinary car in their company, even bordering on ugly!

Sorry Art but if you mean to include the KPGC10 in the above in my experience you are in the 1%ers, or simply talking about a different car.

It was a seriously ordinary car in their company, even bordering on ugly!
You've gotta be joking!LOLPlease take a look in my galleryand re assure yourself (and me!)that the silver /grey car with the black wheels is an example of what you saw with the 24 ounce and company.To the untrained eye my car is a KPGC10. Where ever it has been displayed it has been described as " A 1600 2door on steroids" to "horniest/sickest car NISSAN ever made!" ...it goes on. One memorable comment which was made by an admiring older women more to the car itself as she traced a hand along its edge as if it were a thoroughbred horse was " What a timeless stunner you are..":knockedou NOT my words but an example of peoples initial reaction to seeing one in the flesh for the first time. My personal opinion is the KPGC10 profile it is one of the best/most pleasing proportioned hard top coupes ever to make it from the drawing board to the showroom. Make of this what you will, but I must add I find the S54BEIII profile equally enchanting:) I also believe these things cast a spell over hapless owners who come to perceive them as more than the sum of their respective nuts and bolts:love:
During those years ('68 to late '71) there was little consistency in the Datsun / dealer structure and many dealers went their own way with importing. That really didn't change until the 1600 proved it's worth and made Japanese cars more acceptable to the general public.

The quoted example of the CSP311 Silvias through Capitol Motors was one, Skyline GTB's in late '68 and early '69 through Commonwealth Motors Broken Hill were others.

There WAS no control and certainly no franchise to prevent it.

I agree with you here 100%. This describes exactly as it appeared to the likes of me and I believe goes a long way to explain the inconsistancies we uncover as we look back years later.

Art you mentioned a NISSAN jacket in a previous post. D'ya reckon you could post a pic of it? Not doubting, but curious what a NISSAN jacket from 1972 looks like, my car being a 1972 Nissan also:classic: I've gathered some period correct patches for just such a jacket and any pics you could offer would be greatly appreciated :D

Please don't let this end here. I suspect there is a lot more about this tale to uncover.

Cheers guys,

Jim.

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Above all, I have come to believe that there was bravery, cowardice, chivalry and cruelty on both sides - and that the power of the victor to write the history and make the moral judgements afterwards did not change the fact that the common man and woman have always been the ones to pay for the greed, ambition and pride of a relatively small few. There are two sides to the stories, and most of us usually only ever hear one.

No truer words ever spoken Alan.

Jim.

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Alan

Agreed, no truer words! War is bloody ugly whichever side you are on and I would bet that the poor buggers we left in Vietnam felt the same.

I actually meant Nissan outside of JDM, just left out a word or two.

Still don't believe Nissan was a brand well known elsewhere until the late 70's / early 80's.

We didn't see cam covers with 'NISSAN' until '72. The first L4's & L6's had 'DATSUN' on them with either 'OHC' (L4) or '2400 OHC' (L6).

There were even some without either Nissan OR Datsun on them. Reports indicate this was also the case in USA.

In the early 70's there was not much coverage of the JDM racing here so the exploits of the S20 powered cars were not well known. Most motor sport reports were centred on the Australian Touring car racing, some on sports car racing and some on local rallying. You had to look real carefully in the small columns for news from the rest of the world and Japan rarely featured. Australians then tended to think everything auto was either the 'mother country' (rallying) or USA (brute horsepower sedans).

I would agree that grey market is closest, but that does not change the fact that at least a few S20 powered cars WERE sold outside JDM whether with or without a full scale sales campaign. A true grey market product does NOT get any factory support and often no warranty which wasn't the case with the white KPGC10 I looked at. It had Nissan handbooks (in Japanese) and a 3 or 4 page (don't remember which) giving the most important details in English which carried the Datsun Australia letterhead.

Were they 'dipping a toe in the water' to see what interest there was? I doubt it as the factory would have been aware the C10 was to be replaced the following year and presumably the decision to market the Skyline as a Datsun 240K had already been made.

Jim

Interesting ad you found, how wide a circulation did the publication have? The linkage was pretty much unknown to the car club types here in South Oz. I had by then owned 2 Nissans and 2 Datsuns and still didn't see that ad.

Maybe just not looking!

The silver/grey car is the same body. The car as I saw it was an off-white (slightly dirty cream shade actually), black bonnet, skinny black wheels with cross ply tyres, black interior and not a lot going for it. Rather like a 432R 'cause the owner was expected to put his own wheels on it for competition use.

It did look a lot better after being sold as it was promptly fitted with a set of wide Minilite wheels with decent radial tyres. He also had the bonnet resprayed with Ford's 'GT blackout' which was actually a semi gloss instead of the ugly flat black it started with.

Must have had SOME factory / dealer support as it went in to the dealer for servicing and maintenance.

Today we can appreciate it for what it was but not at the time. I also find the S54's and the C10 pretty neat now, and actually prefer the lines of a 260z 2+2 to those of a 240z (and we own one of each). Not so keen on the 240K GT styling although that is what our club car is (KHGC110 000302). Tastes change radically, don't they?

If a KGC10 became available and I could shift the C110, yes I would.

The Nissan jacket is plain black with NISSAN in white block letters across the back. Nothing fancy and I curse not keeping a 'DATSUN' jacket to go with it.

The Datsun jackets were actually a lot better, deep blue with white lettering and the logo in red, white and a lighter blue. Really cool for a young bloke back then!

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Hello Art,

That particular ad came from an Australian issue "Readers Digest". I've just done a quick check of my other 240K ads, the sales brochure, Modern Motor , Wheels, Motor Manual, Classic Cars( a British publication). All from 1973-1975, all make mention of the 240Z engine connection. DATSUN 240Z....DATSUN 240K...I think they were making some attempt, but fell in the mud with the 120Y , 180B , 240 C.

As an aside I've got pics here of what was planned for Australia as the 240B or 260B (Nov.'73) In Japan it was the Bluebird U2000GT or GT-X.

Any connection made in Australia to the Skyline for the 240K, was always in an Australian magazine road test or article. I can find no mention from Nissan-Datsun in their Australian ads that I've got my hands on. I guess they felt it would mean nothing to their target market who would be unlikely to know of it's motorsport heritage, and the '64-'67 GT connection was too obscure.... Too much Prince (basically unknown) and not enough Datsun. Different story in England. The one ad I've seen introduces it as a new executive saloon called the Skyline, and says the engine is a close relative of Datsuns famous rally winning 240Z.

It had Nissan handbooks (in Japanese) and a 3 or 4 page (don't remember which) giving the most important details in English which carried the Datsun Australia letterhead.

Will you please stop teasing the sh*t outa me with stuff like this?:disappoin (Don't you dare, I'm only joking:p )To hear that this kind of documentation existed, only fires me up to try and get some acknowledgment out of NISSAN somehow?!?!....and to hear this morning that NISSAN themselves have lost documentation passed on to them for translation/verification of one of the KGC10's brought in through New Guinea as a private import:mad:

Must have had SOME factory / dealer support as it went in to the dealer for servicing and maintenance.

Can you expand on who the dealer is(was?) and any other relevant info Art? Are you interested in recovering as much about this fascinating piece of history as possible? Things like dates are really helpful. These can be used to then cross reference local and other publications of the time. I have a few sources to run by the info you've provided so far, but verification in some tangeable form will really make them sit up and take notice:classic:

You appear to have been well connected at the time and in an enviable position to sooth enquiring minds!:) I'm still curious about the jackets. In what capacity did you wear them that Datsun(?) could ask you what, and what not to wear? I'm betting you have a lot of pics and interesting info of this era!?

Cheers guys, and keep the good questions and info flowing:classic:

Jim.

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Ummmm, just looked at an old Wheels ad and it sure does mention the link to the 240z. Must've been one of those times of "You have got to be kidding!".

I had heard rumours about a 260B back then, but never knew much more than hearsay.

English ad makes a lot more sense continuing the Skyline name, although the 'executive saloon' description would have REALLY stretched the credibility boundaries here. Imagine a 240K described that way when just down the road you could get a Ford Fairlane or Holden Statesman, either of which came with a V8, air, power steer, LSD available, etc etc. What a joke!

Pity about the lost docs although that has happened before. Often enough to make one wonder whether Nissan might have 'oops, we lost them' so that the history remains obscure. You can't even get copies of the FIA Homologation papers from them for anything earlier than about 1995 and they flatly deny ever having any FIA papers from the Prince era.

The dealer was Ken Eustace Datsun, now sadly defunct. It would have been late January 1972 as that was when I disposed of my Datsun Coupe.

Datsun Australia had good leverage to encourage wearing the jackets, they were supplying a lot of special bits at really good prices. Didn't do much good though, job requirements kept getting in the way.

As so often happens, frequent moves and a job that dictated the end of motorsport by 1973 has resulted in what pics ever got to me being lost. The odd pic has come to me from relatives but not much.

A friend in nearby Clare, John Drage, is in the same position and he won the SA Rally Championship in 1978(?).

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Still don't believe Nissan was a brand well known elsewhere until the late 70's / early 80's.

That would be because the 'Nissan' parent company name was not being promoted outside Japan. But I feel sure the reason why the Nissan name wasn't being promoted was not anything to do with it possibly looking or sounding like 'Nippon' ( we will have to agree to disagree on that point ).

We didn't see cam covers with 'NISSAN' until '72. The first L4's & L6's had 'DATSUN' on them with either 'OHC' (L4) or '2400 OHC' (L6).

There were even some without either Nissan OR Datsun on them. Reports indicate this was also the case in USA.

Well, the first L4 & L6 cam covers had the word 'NISSAN' on them ( because they were first sold in the Japanese market ). I don't know too much about the Australian market, but I'm 100% sure that the L24 engines fitted to the Australian market HS30 'Datsun 240Z' models had 'NISSAN 2400 OHC' and then 'NISSAN OHC' on their cam covers, and the first of these started arriving in Australia in 1970.

L6 cam covers without either 'Nissan' or 'Datsun' on them I have never seen, apart from aftermarket ( non Nissan ) product.

Were they 'dipping a toe in the water' to see what interest there was? I doubt it as the factory would have been aware the C10 was to be replaced the following year and presumably the decision to market the Skyline as a Datsun 240K had already been made.

That's just what I was thinking when I read what you wrote, and it is why the car ( cars? ) sound like grey import one-offs to me.

The car as I saw it was an off-white (slightly dirty cream shade actually), black bonnet, skinny black wheels with cross ply tyres, black interior and not a lot going for it.

He also had the bonnet resprayed with Ford's 'GT blackout' which was actually a semi gloss instead of the ugly flat black it started with.

Two things intrigue me here. First of all, the KPGC10 came from the Factory with RADIAL tyres. A special glovebox sticker unique to the C10 GT-R model reminded owners of this fact ( and the pressures which they were to be inflated to ). Why did the car you saw have crossplies on it if it was new?

Secondly, I don't believe any KPGC10s came from the Factory with flat black bonnets. They were steel ( as opposed to FRP ) and were always body colour.

I'm beginning to think that the car you saw in the Australian showroom might have been 'pre-owned' ( ie - used, and not Factory fresh ). I'm intrigued.

Alan T.

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I am 3rd generation Japanese-American whose family came from Okinawa. The atrocities of war were much more than I care to discuss and can't speak for the Japanese living today.

Getting back to the hijacked topic . . . . .aarc240 - can you provide solid data on what you say? Were KPGC10s actually sold in OZ? Not questioning your story, but looking for proof of something that has eluded us to date. As far as we all know, C10s were not sold outside of Japan. Do you have the missing link?

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Alan,

Cam covers - take that up with the Americans. I understand they also had 'DATSUN' covers initially (query Carl Beck IZCC on that).

Sorry, you are wrong on the cam covers delivered here. Through '70 and at least most of '71 I did not see ONE Nissan cover and I was in and out of the dealer's floor regularly (my Datsun Coupe was frequently displayed there)

Tyres were identical to those fitted to the 240z sitting beside it - H rated cross plies. That only sticks in the memory because we couldn't believe _either_ car was actually to be sold with that crap on it.

Why? Who knows!

Were the bonnets _always_ body colour? Where is proof of that?

Anyway, why black? I don't have that information. Maybe some bright spark decided a plain white car was very ordinary.

As with the tyres, the people who could answer are not available.

Pre-owned? Not in this State buddy!! Even then our laws were VERY stringent about selling something as new when in fact it was not. That would have been a _very_ quick way for a dealer to go out of business.

Entirely aside from the legal implications, the car had 27 miles on the odometer which is about right for delivery. That stuck because the dealer principal didn't want the odometer to go to 30 miles in a short test drive. And no, they were _not_ in the habit of disconnecting speedos, again because the penalties were getting pretty severe.

Miles,

Apologies, I shouldn't have brought that up. My father also served and although he didn't hold any grudges he also wouldn't speak of it.

On the hijacked topic, unfortunately I didn't have the foresight 34 years ago to take lots of pics! (must do something to get the foresight as sharp as hindsight)

No, I would love to have had solid data but since I didn't buy it I don't have a receipt or delivery papers.

About the only way I can see of ever proving what was actually sold and where would be a careful audit of the delivery documentation Nissan presumably had and probably don't have now.

Art

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Sorry Art, I think you are mistaken about cam covers. All 240Z covers had either Nissan 2400 OHC covers, or NISSAN OHC covers.

I've never ever seen a DATSUN L6 cover, ever. not in photos or in real life, and i've seem plenty of 1970 240Z's. I have photos early VIN Australian 240z's andf they all have nissan valve covers.

Do you have any photos of Datsun covers you could post?

Different case for other models, engines such as A12's R16's, U20's. Some said datsun, some said nissan.

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I know the early L4 covers had 'DATSUN OHC' sometimes even 'DATSUN 1600 OHC' however, much like Mr. Camo, I have never seen nor heard of a L6 with 'DATSUN' lettering.

Alan, In regards to the Prince Skyline you posted, my apologies, I assumed it belonged to a friend of yours in the UK and I had recently been talking to other UK Datsun fanatics about a Prince Skyline GT shown in a UK magazine from the 80's that I have here.

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my apologies for hijacking the hijack and i'm not sure if it was mentioned somewhere else on this forum, but apparently this Silver Haksuka 2dr (shell minus the rb26) is headed over to it's new owner in Oz. The previous owner or new owner may wish to confirm/deny this.

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Hijacking a hijack??? That's Brian's car.

Yair, I hope he knows about it :paranoid:

What's your source Mr BigHat? (I know it's not tomatoe or BBQ!LOL ) I can't read that link .(Swedish?) Is is relevant to the sale, or just the pics?

Jim.

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Alan,

Cam covers - take that up with the Americans.

aarc240,

What have cam covers made in Japan by Nissan for the Australian market got to do with "the Americans"?

Sorry, you are wrong on the cam covers delivered here. Through '70 and at least most of '71 I did not see ONE Nissan cover and I was in and out of the dealer's floor regularly (my Datsun Coupe was frequently displayed there)

Sorry, but I think your memory is playing tricks with you. No offence intended. :classic:

Tyres were identical to those fitted to the 240z sitting beside it - H rated cross plies. That only sticks in the memory because we couldn't believe _either_ car was actually to be sold with that crap on it.

Why? Who knows!

Very odd. I thought all official HS30U 'Datsun 240Z' models for the Australian market were fitted with Radials from the Factory.

Were the bonnets _always_ body colour? Where is proof of that?

Nearly 35 years worth of marque and model history never mentions such a thing, which includes Factory sales brochures, period advertising, dealer options and Sports Options lists, period magazine articles and full road tests at launch. Also around three decades of magazine articles, books and model analysis in Japan. Never a flat black bonnet on a 'normal' street-use KPGC10 for sale to the general public spotted amongst all that.

But then, we are only talking about one car here aren't we? I guess anything is possible........

Entirely aside from the legal implications, the car had 27 miles on the odometer which is about right for delivery. That stuck because the dealer principal didn't want the odometer to go to 30 miles in a short test drive.

............like a KPGC10 odometer that read in MPH instead of KPH. Unique! :knockedou

Alan T.

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Alan, In regards to the Prince Skyline you posted, my apologies, I assumed it belonged to a friend of yours in the UK and I had recently been talking to other UK Datsun fanatics about a Prince Skyline GT shown in a UK magazine from the 80's that I have here.

Hi Michael,

Ah - now I understand. It thought for a minute that you knew the car - which would have been a big surprise as I don't think the owner shows it to very many people.

I vaguely remember the UK magazine article you mention. Was the car in a bit of a state, and sitting in a field ( or at least on waste ground )? I was told that it was probably beyond saving at the time - but who knows? I certainly haven't heard anything about it recently.

Cheers,

Alan T.

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Yair, I hope he knows about it :paranoid:

Jim.

I hope so too, because he sent me a PM last week saying that the sale fell apart.

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Hi Michael,

Ah - now I understand. It thought for a minute that you knew the car - which would have been a big surprise as I don't think the owner shows it to very many people.

I vaguely remember the UK magazine article you mention. Was the car in a bit of a state, and sitting in a field ( or at least on waste ground )? I was told that it was probably beyond saving at the time - but who knows? I certainly haven't heard anything about it recently.

Cheers,

Alan T.

Alan, something along those lines (in regards to where it was situated), I'm unsure of specifics and it didn't really go into much in the magazine. I have scanned and uploaded the small mention of it though.

tc19886in.jpg

You can see what I mean about the damage on the front left quarter.

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Although not binding to anything due to it being a diecast, I stumbled across this just tonight whilst searching for something else entirely and as I say, being a diecast it doesn't exactly prove anything here nor there, but I found it interesting giving the current conversation none the less;

T_10brawn2.jpg

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I guess it all goes to prove that a resident of UK having been also a resident of Japan knows everything about Nissan / Datsun.

I'm sorry I even bothered.

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I guess it all goes to prove that a resident of UK having been also a resident of Japan knows everything about Nissan / Datsun.

I'm sorry I even bothered.

aarc240,

I'm sorry you feel that way.

I certainly don't think I ".....know everything about Nissan / Datsun." - but I'm determined to find out as much as I can about the things I am interested in. I usually only pipe up on threads such as this when I'm fairly sure of my facts, and I try not to post bad information or incorrect data. I'm not out to humiliate you or anybody else, and if you can show me that anything I have written is wrong then I will stand corrected.

I'm sorry, but ( to my mind anyway ) there are a fair few things that don't add up about your KPGC10 in Australia story. I'm not saying that you are a liar ( far from it ) - just that the single car you have offered as an example sounds to me to have been a one-off 'Grey Import' that was most likely not any part of a sales plan by Nissan's planners in Japan. You seem quite sure that there was no press coverage and that it would not have been documented. I find that hard to believe. I'd have thought it would have aroused some interest, even if the car was seen as something of a white elephant that stood no chance against more powerful domestics and other imports in the Australian market. And what happened to any others? Is this a one-off, two-off, three-off or were there more?

The flat black bonnet was surprising ( I still think this is non-Factory on the KPGC10 ), and the mention of crossply tyres was even more so. I'm wondering if you were mistaken in thinking that the '6.45H - 14 - 4PR' markings on a standard-equipment KPGC10 tyre denoted a crossply type rather than an early radial that still used some of the crossply identification codes ( which was what they were )? It's certainly a possibility. I don't wish to insult you by inferring that you don't know the difference between the two, but it might have been easy to be misled by that format of tyre sizing.

In case you haven't noticed, a couple of other people picked you up on the 'NISSAN' cam cover issue too. Perhaps they did it more politely than I did. I'm sorry that you took offence when none was intended from me. I'm really only interested in the facts being correct, and recorded properly so that we can all learn something from them.

Alan T.

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Alan,

Cam covers:

quoting kyteler

I know the early L4 covers had 'DATSUN OHC' sometimes even 'DATSUN 1600 OHC' however, much like Mr. Camo, I have never seen nor heard of a L6 with 'DATSUN' lettering.

quoting you

In case you haven't noticed, a couple of other people picked you up on the 'NISSAN' cam cover issue too.

Errrr - something smells there!

reference Nissan publication Part Number 99996-M8012 'How to modify your Nissan & Datsun OHC engine' exploded parts views "Drawing Courtesy Nissan" pg 89 four cylinder and p90 six cylinder. Both clearly show the lettering to be DATSUN. The same info was also published in the earlier 'How to modify DATSUN 510 610 240Z engines & chassis' pg 46

Are we to assume that Nissan released that sort of detail incorrectly? Come on!!

Part number 13264-E3100 is a DATSUN cam cover for an L24. Part number 13264-P0100 is a NISSAN cam cover for an L24 or L26. At least that was what they were when I had to replace a cover back in '72 after a cam gear bolt came loose (and initially got the wrong, E3100, cover).

quoting you

What have cam covers made in Japan by Nissan for the Australian market got to do with "the Americans"?

Since America and Australia were the two countries to which Nissan was exporting at that time (apart from the dribbles into UK and Europe) then I would have thought that you would realise that there was a fair bit in common between the two markets. Even then we got 5 speed gearboxes from the outset which no other export market got in 1970.

Tyres - '6.45H 14 4PR' are cross plies in Australia. If a tyre was of radial construction it had to be marked accordingly, in which case it could carry a marking such as '6.45HR 14 4PR'.LOL Even that is a pretty wild stretch considering that the earliest radials here were letter series ( AR78 13, ER70 14 etc) as dictated by federal DOT. You obviously know nothing regarding the LEGAL requirements in this country!

A manufacturer might have got away with the sort of idiocy you imply in Japan or England (and I wouldn't know one way or the other) but in Australia that would have created some significant legal issues.

No, I wouldn't have been easily misled as I was well used to variations in markings having already used cross, bias and radial ply road tyres as well as racing tyres. Having already had some 9 years in motor sport and a bit less on the road had instilled some knowledge.

Breaking it down, 6.45 is 6.45 inches nominal cross section, H is speed rated to 140MPH, 14 is the wheel fitment diameter, 4PR is four ply rated. No reference to radial, period. I knew that sort of information by the time I was 14 and haven't forgotten it.

Odometer markings

" ............like a KPGC10 odometer that read in MPH instead of KPH. Unique! "

Australia still required speedometers to read in MPH in 1972 and so odometers also read in miles. Maybe, just maybe, someone actually fitted the correct parts to make the car legal. Oh, and Nissan did have MPH speedos - they were fitted in 240Z's until at least late '72. In fact our '73 KHGC110 came with a MPH speedo, as did our May '72 240Z

I really can't see where you get the idea that a Nissan S20 would arouse some interest here. A hot 2 litre might have been noteworthy in England as real performance car compared to the standard fare. Not so in Australia as standard road cars were reaching 110MPH readily with 5 litre V8's. To raise much interest a car would need to have been seen as a serious threat to the 140MPH Ford Falcon XY GTHO Phase III (yes, one hundred and forty miles per hour in average tune). An S20 KPGC10 seen as a threat?ROFL More like a joke back then.

What I tried to provide right from the outset was information that limited numbers of S20 engined cars got on the market here and that at least one KPGC10 was sold. That the one KPGC10 I physically saw was at least sanctioned by Nissan is clear from the fact that a DEALER had it on a showroom floor. That Nissan had SOME involvement should be obvious to any intelligent person in that correct tyres and odometer / speedometer for the market were fitted. Whether the black bonnet was factory or not is not significant - it had it and why it had it is immaterial. That Nissan did or didn't try to 'market' the model here was neither here nor there as far as I am concerned. How many more, if any, ever got here I made no reference to.

Quite frankly, after this I have no interest in pursuing the history of Datsun / Nissan in Australia, nor of making the other information I have from the Prince / Nissan / Datsun / Nissan era public.

Being "determined to find out as much as I can about the things I am interested in" is one thing, being aggressively offensive is entirely different, particularly when a person so obviously has little if any knowledge of the environment in which the item of interest must conform or in the subject on a global scale.

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reference Nissan publication Part Number 99996-M8012 'How to modify your Nissan & Datsun OHC engine' exploded parts views "Drawing Courtesy Nissan" pg 89 four cylinder and p90 six cylinder. Both clearly show the lettering to be DATSUN. The same info was also published in the earlier 'How to modify DATSUN 510 610 240Z engines & chassis' pg 46

Are we to assume that Nissan released that sort of detail incorrectly? Come on!!

In a word, yes.

We have already agreed that the L4 engines and some of the others had the word 'DATSUN' on their cam ( and valve ) covers - but the L6 cam cover with the word 'DATSUN' on it from the Factory is proving to be as easy to pin down as Nessie.

Pointing at pictures from publications 'approved' by NMC USA ( one of which shows an L4 anyway ) is not enough 'evidence' for me I'm afraid. I've had my knuckles rapped in the last few months on this forum for posting Nissan factory literature that supposedly related to parts for the L6, but showed an outline of

an S20 engine.

Show me an OEM Factory-fitment 'DATSUN' scripted

cam cover fitted to an L6 in a Z or Skyline and I'll soon STFU though.

Since America and Australia were the two countries to which Nissan was exporting at that time (apart from the dribbles into UK and Europe) then I would have thought that you would realise that there was a fair bit in common between the two markets. Even then we got 5 speed gearboxes from the outset which no other export market got in 1970.

Yes, the USA / North American market was Nissan's biggest export market in 1970. Australia was the next biggest export market for Nissan at that time, and was very important to Nissan ( and had been a serious target for Nissan's export drive before the USA ) - but BOTH those markets were dwarfed by Nissan's domestic market at that time. Let us not forget that. This KPGC10 we are discussing was a domestic market model.

You can take the wizz out of the amount of cars that Nissan exported to the UK and mainland Europe if you like, but it can't be denied that Nissan took those markets seriously and they were actively engaged in addressing the logistics of increasing sales there. Special models - modified to local market requirements - were being aimed there. The UK market HS30U 'Datsun 240Z' was mechanically the same spec as the Australian market cars, so I don't see what your point is there. Yes - we got 5-speeds in the UK. So did 'Europe'.

But all this is beside the point isn't it? We wouldn't be discussing it unless you had brought it up as some reason why the KPGC10 did / didn't ( I'm not exactly sure which you believe ) get officially exported and sold in Australia.

Tyres - '6.45H 14 4PR' are cross plies in Australia.

This looks like a major sticking point. The '6.45H - 14 - 4PR' tyre fitted to the KPGC10 in the Japanese market ( a Japanese-made tyre! ) was of RADIAL construction. It was NOT a crossply tyre. Maybe it wouldn't have been recognised as such in Australia - but it wasn't aimed at the Australian market, and therefore would not have had to conform to any Australian regulations.

Australia still required speedometers to read in MPH in 1972 and so odometers also read in miles. Maybe, just maybe, someone actually fitted the correct parts to make the car legal. Oh, and Nissan did have MPH speedos - they were fitted in 240Z's until at least late '72. In fact our '73 KHGC110 came with a MPH speedo, as did our May '72 240Z

Yes - we all know that cars aimed at markets that used MPH had speedos and odos that read in MPH. The point I was making was that you have two scenarios running in parallel: You say that this single KPGC10 you saw in the Australian showroom was badged as a 'Nissan', but you also say that it had details that were 'converted' to suit the Australian market. Seems like a lot of effort for a single car ( I keep asking you if there were more......? ) - so why did they go to the trouble? And then to not convert it to 'Datsun' badging? I still don't get it. Converting a KPGC10 speedo / odo ( an item unique to the 'GT-R' - and obviously reading in KPH too ) to MPH would not have been a 5 minute job. In fact, I think it would be a bloody BIG job to do it well enough to look OEM.

You insist that the car was 'delivery mileage' on the showroom floor, but if it had been converted to use an MPH speedo / odo then how could you be sure that it was the car's true mileage?

I really can't see where you get the idea that a Nissan S20 would arouse some interest here. A hot 2 litre might have been noteworthy in England as real performance car compared to the standard fare. Not so in Australia as standard road cars were reaching 110MPH readily with 5 litre V8's. ................

..............An S20 KPGC10 seen as a threat?ROFL More like a joke back then.

Wow. 110 MPH? Can human beings actually breathe at that speed? Here in funny old England we were still driving around in three-wheelers powered by wood shavings at that time. Maybe that explains why I'd be impressed with something you would call "a joke" ( even if you did admit you considered the possibility of buying one ).

I still can't figure out why you are so sure that this car ( cars? ) never got ANY press coverage in Australia. How would you know that for sure? It sounds pretty definitive to me. Surely someone took a picture of it at the very least? I don't think we should be ready to give up just yet.

:knockedou

Alan T.

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Alan,

Are you just being deliberately thick or something?

I saw the car in Australia, not Japan, so it had to comply with Australian regs. If something didn't comply then the offending part(s) had to come off and be replaced with acceptable substitutes. No ifs or buts, no bullshit about being JDM spec items, off it comes PERIOD.

Tyres are production materials readily available from Bridgestone (which is what was on them).

Actually I would like to see some proof of the supposed radial tyres that shared identical markings with the previous cross plies. Even back then that would have been a potential legal minefield for the tyre manufacturer. I think you're blowing smoke out your arse with that one!!

It would be no more difficult for Nissan with the speedo than the tyres.

Nissan speedos were off the shelf mechanisms from (then) Jeco, including the one you seem to think is something unique to the C10 GT-R. Exchange the mechanism and very likely an off the shelf face too and you have a converted unit. Nothing hard, nothing magical, just normal old engineering practice. Even doing a custom dial face is a simple (and cheap) excercise when running a business like Jeco.

In that vein, the same would have applied to the seatbelts. JDM belts never have been acceptable in Australia so they would have been changed too but who remembers something that is a normal item used regularly.

It really comes down to the simple fact that I have stated what I saw and I really could not care less what a self opinionated individual thinks about it. If you don't want to know then give everyone else the relief of burying your head in the sand.

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Oh, I forgot about the supposed same spec HS30U that was the same as the HS30 that came to Australia.

Again, you're blowing smoke where it don't belong.

Get out your parts microfiches and check it out. Dampers, springs and lots of other 'tuning' bits have different part numbers between the HS30U and the HS30.

For a car of the same spec as you claim that's just a little fishy.

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