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ajmcforester

BRE Spoilers and Spooks are back

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Several months a go I contacted BRE by email to see if they had a spook for the 240z around (don't know unless you ask). Well I got an email back that evening that they took a tour of the original factory that produced the spooks and spoilers the day before well I have been in louse contact ever since. This morning I got the email that they have them and needed my address to calculate shipping since they have not done that yet. They are being made in the original molds. The price is very fair to me, and thought a lot of you might be interested.

http://www.bre2.net/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=B&Category_Code=bredatsunparts

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"This BRE Datsun 240Z Rear Spoiler (highlighted in yellow above) was designed by Peter Brock....."

Yeah, right.... :rolleyes:

With all the talent, history and kudos behind BRE, why do they feel it necessary to come out with such blatant nonsense?

Does Pete Brock actually check the sales blurbs on his site, or is it just written by minions who don't know the truth?

BRE don't actually need to lie about things like this.

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Yeah, right.... :rolleyes:

With all the talent, history and kudos behind BRE, why do they feel it necessary to come out with such blatant nonsense?

Does Pete Brock actually check the sales blurbs on his site, or is it just written by minions who don't know the truth?

BRE don't actually need to lie about things like this.

Then who designed it? It looks like Peter Brock's work. I've seen concept drawings of the Shelby Mustangs with his signature and a similar spook on the car in the illustration. I know BRE his company developed and sold this part.

I hope your not mistaking it for something sold in Europe, I don't know if this was sold over their. The American 240Z did have a spook originally like you could get in Europe and the rest of the world. The BRE was one of the first on the US market.

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I'm not talking about Europe, I'm talking about Japan. I'm not talking about the BRE 'Spook' ( that's a well-documented BRE creation ), I'm talking about the rear spoiler.

Then who designed it? It looks like Peter Brock's work.

Well, given the fact that an identical twin-ribbed rear spoiler was seen on the debut of the Nissan Fairlady Z432-R model shown at the Press Preview event at Nissan's head office in Ginza, Tokyo on October 18th 1969, and assuming that it would have needed to have been designed, tested, productionised and produced some weeks or even months before that, I'd say it was a fairly good bet that BRE had nothing to do with it.

I believe that what's being called the first 'BRE rear spoiler' for the Z was actually the rear spoiler that was fitted to the 432-R as standard equipment, and was an optional accessory on the other models. Later on, I believe BRE made their own unique moulding which looked similar to the later ( non-ribbed ) factory rear spoiler. But the ribbed rear spoiler was a Nissan factory designed and produced item.

Alan T.

post-2116-14150811610761_thumb.jpg

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Interesting. I thought Les at CDM had the original BRE molds for the spook. I wonder if he will still be selling them? Also, I wonder if these new spooks will come with the integrated brake ducting like the early BRE spooks did?

-Mike

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I'm not talking about Europe, I'm talking about Japan. I'm not talking about the BRE 'Spook' ( that's a well-documented BRE creation ), I'm talking about the rear spoiler.

Well, given the fact that an identical twin-ribbed rear spoiler was seen on the debut of the Nissan Fairlady Z432-R model shown at the Press Preview event at Nissan's head office in Ginza, Tokyo on October 18th 1969, and assuming that it would have needed to have been designed, tested, productionised and produced some weeks or even months before that, I'd say it was a fairly good bet that BRE had nothing to do with it.

I believe that what's being called the first 'BRE rear spoiler' for the Z was actually the rear spoiler that was fitted to the 432-R as standard equipment, and was an optional accessory on the other models. Later on, I believe BRE made their own unique moulding which looked similar to the later ( non-ribbed ) factory rear spoiler. But the ribbed rear spoiler was a Nissan factory designed and produced item.

Alan T.

That I agree with!

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Interesting. I thought Les at CDM had the original BRE molds for the spook. I wonder if he will still be selling them? Also, I wonder if these new spooks will come with the integrated brake ducting like the early BRE spooks did?

-Mike

They show on the ad with the ducts

Also I emailed my contact about the rear spoiler. He could have helped with the design of the rear spoiler, because several performance shops in the USA had some input into the car design. I know Carrol Shelby had his hands in the 240Z, why not Peter Brock?

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Also I emailed my contact about the rear spoiler. He could have helped with the design of the rear spoiler, because several performance shops in the USA had some input into the car design. I know Carrol Shelby had his hands in the 240Z, why not Peter Brock?

No disrespect to you, but it might take a little bit more in the way of proof to convince me. Nissan had their own stylists, designers and engineers at the time we are talking about. They even had their own wind tunnel. They were quite capable of designing that rear spoiler themselves, and I believe that they did.

Which 'performance shops' in the USA had some input into the S30-series Z's concept, design and/or engineering before it was launched in November 1969? What did Carroll Shelby have to do with the car?

Sorry, but I think much of what we are hearing is just the echoing of past lies ( read: advertising and PR ), still bouncing around long after they were first uttered. These days - forty years later - we should be a little less gullible.

Talking of forty years later, I'd expect those "original" moulds to be a little er, fragile by now too......

Alan T.

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They show on the ad with the ducts

I am referring to the additional upper and lower ducting shown in these pictures of an original early BRE spook that came on one of my cars. I don't think that is visible in the photo.

-Mike

post-9102-14150811611401_thumb.jpg

post-9102-14150811611823_thumb.jpg

post-9102-14150811612238_thumb.jpg

post-9102-14150811612645_thumb.jpg

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No disrespect to you, but it might take a little bit more in the way of proof to convince me. Nissan had their own stylists, designers and engineers at the time we are talking about. They even had their own wind tunnel. They were quite capable of designing that rear spoiler themselves, and I believe that they did.

Which 'performance shops' in the USA had some input into the S30-series Z's concept, design and/or engineering before it was launched in November 1969? What did Carroll Shelby have to do with the car?

Sorry, but I think much of what we are hearing is just the echoing of past lies ( read: advertising and PR ), still bouncing around long after they were first uttered. These days - forty years later - we should be a little less gullible.

Talking of forty years later, I'd expect those "original" moulds to be a little er, fragile by now too......

Alan T.

Why is it that you demand others to provide you with "proof" of their statements yet you expect us to accept your beliefs as fact? :sick:

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Why is it that you demand others to provide you with "proof" of their statements yet you expect us to accept your beliefs as fact? :sick:

Maybe because they have something to sell, and I don't.

In this particular case ( the rear spoiler ), I believe the 'evidence' quite clearly contradicts BRE's claim.

If we are to believe that Pete Brock designed the rear spoiler seen on the Fairlady Z432-R at launch ( I remind you, in November 1969 ) then there's a whole BIG story out there that has so far not been told. It would involve Brock working with Nissan's engineers in Japan many months before November 1969, and almost nobody knowing about it. Or perhaps you believe he sketched it out on a napkin and posted it to Nissan by Air Mail ( after all, Pinin Farina, Yutaka Katayama and Walt Disney 'designed' the whole car after lunch in 1967 - so why not? That Farina guy could even design cars whilst he was dead :rolleyes: )?

Call me a cynical old fella, but I think - if Brock had been designing for Nissan - then the BRE publicity machine might have made a little more mileage out of it all. Meanwhile, back in the real world, I don't believe Pete Brock actually even saw an S30-series Z car until October 1969 at the earliest.

You believe Brock designed that rear spoiler, I take it? Or perhaps you haven't 'come to a view' about that yet. Maybe you'll put some thought into the subject now that you've pointed out my personality defect ( again ) LOL

Nice to see that I'm still not on your ignore list, too :bunny:

Alan T.

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Maybe because they have something to sell, and I don't.

Alan T.

Who in this discussion has anything related to selling things, I won't work for BRE. From time to time I sell some extra parts, but we all do that and it does not relate to this. I have several early Z car book that mention Carrol Shelby's work on the 240z, the roadsters and the Toyota 2000GT. Mostly on basic engine performance, driveline, and basic American marketing. I don't think a lot of drastic things were done, it sounded like some basic inquiry from Datsun.

I don't know if your on the attack or just having a discussion and coming off wrong, but please read your posts a little more if you won't want to come off as attacking everyone. This was like the time about the side badges being removed in the US on the first shipments.

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I am referring to the additional upper and lower ducting shown in these pictures of an original early BRE spook that came on one of my cars. I don't think that is visible in the photo.

-Mike

Your right, can I use your picture in reference to my contact and ask, because I'm restoring close to how the car was sold and this was a part on my car?

I found out about the spook when talking to the original owner, he even told me how the original was broken in 74 or 75 (I'd need to check my note for the date). It also explained, why the PS door was a different color, why I had one plastic headlight bucket and one metal bucket. Lucky all damaged metal was replaced and none of the metal welded to the body was damaged or the American Racing rim. I just wish I could say that about its second accident (last owners damage), but nothing that can't be repaired correctly.

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Who in this discussion has anything related to selling things, I won't work for BRE.

I'm not 'attacking' anyone, let alone you. The people who have something to sell are BRE, and they are the ones claiming that Pete Brock designed that rear spoiler. I don't believe that he did. It's all quite simple. This is a Forum, yes?

I have several early Z car book that mention Carrol Shelby's work on the 240z, the roadsters and the Toyota 2000GT. Mostly on basic engine performance, driveline, and basic American marketing. I don't think a lot of drastic things were done, it sounded like some basic inquiry from Datsun.

Please can you tell me the titles of these books, as I would like to read them too? Authors? Publishers? Any clues at all? I feel like I've missed out. I've read - and heard - plenty of stories about the S30-series Z, but proof of Carroll Shelby's involvement is one I can't remember.

I don't know if your on the attack or just having a discussion and coming off wrong, but please read your posts a little more if you won't want to come off as attacking everyone.

As I said above, I'm not "on the attack". I think we can pride ourselves on this forum for trying to see through the fog and get down to the truth about these cars and matters historical, so stories which I personally believe to be apocryphal written on a website which is selling something ( BRE ) are certainly within our range and collective remit. If they are true, then they'll hold water. If they are not, then we are all the better for it ( I believe ).

Your first reply to me quite obviously misunderstood my initial points ( I wasn't talking about the 'Spook', and this is nothing to do with 'Europe' ), so what I am supposed to say?

If you're looking for an example of a personal attack post, take a peep at post #10 ( but mind you don't slip on the vomit ).

Apologies if I come across to you in a way that you don't like, but I assure you that is not the intention. I'm just interested in the facts.

Alan T.

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Please can you tell me the titles of these books, as I would like to read them too? Authors? Publishers? Any clues at all? I feel like I've missed out. I've read - and heard - plenty of stories about the S30-series Z, but proof of Carroll Shelby's involvement is one I can't remember.

Alan T.

Let me go through and check the books so I direct you to the right ones, a couple of the ones I have are from Australia, and the US so I don't know hard they will be to find. Their was not much detail on what Shelby did just a mention that he had a part.

It would not surprise me to find out BRE had some influence in the Z they were having good success on the track with the roadsters, and helped out with the marketing of the Z. It just makes since. Yes BRE are out to sell something, but looking at the sight they are more for nostalgia.

I think the release of the parts have been from a large interest in the Z again, and people calling to get original styled parts for their Z cars. I don't see any true performance parts. I think the demand is their, look how many reproductions are out their. That detail is small when looking at the overall picture. Not to say it isn't important especially when understanding the cars history.

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....snip....If you're looking for an example of a personal attack post, take a peep at post #10 ( but mind you don't slip on the vomit ). .... snip....

Check out post #72 on the following link and then translate it if you'd like to see what a real "personal" attack looks like. :stupid:

http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38906&page=3

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xxxxxxxxx

Edited by sblake01
No relevance to thread

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I emailed about the enclosed duct that Mike B posted without the picture just a description.

Direct from the Email:

I'm woefully without a lot of details. I tracked the shop down that made

the parts originally for BRE, talked to the new owner (who was a worker

there in the '70s and now owns the place), and he didn't know what he had

but said he never throws anything away. Peter and I stopped by there on a

trip to LA and Peter and the guy went thru the pieces so quickly I didn't

get a chance to take any pictures. The guy or Peter would grab a piece and

Peter would say: "yeah that's our..., yeah that's our..." etc. I made a

list and then worked with the guy on how he'd sell them to us, how they'd

get shipped, pricing, etc.

Now with that said, Peter says the brake vents were not an enclosed tube as

they couldn't be fabricated that way with a mold. So the ducting that runs

out the back is open on the top and then there was an additional piece that

fit on top of the ducting to make it an enclosed tube. We didn't ask the

shop if they still had the mold for that small piece. I've now asked Peter

why we didn't look into that and he said it was because the primary purpose

of the spook was down force and not cooling the brakes and even fewer people

today would use the piece to actually cool the brakes. With all that said,

I'll call the shop in CA and see if the guy still has the mold. Even if he

doesn't it shouldn't take much to make one.

I kept his info out since I didn't ask if that would be OK, and some personal information for my order.

I'm not posting to this tread anymore I've seen this spitball war one to many times.

Edited by ajmcforester
Forgot what I was going to post

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Check out post #72 on the following link and then translate it if you'd like to see what a real "personal" attack looks like. :stupid:

moonpup,

You're making this thread all about me. Have you got anything to add to the subject that's being discussed, or are you so fixated with my scent that you can't see anything else?

Where's the "Laidback purist" that you portray yourself as, and where is your sense of humour ( oh sorry, 'humor' )?

Sprinkle a few morsels of conjecture / opinion / evidence in amongst your contributions occasionally, for crying out loud. All I ever see you posting are ebay links and comments about what I'm saying or doing. Post something worth reading, worth some discussion. Where's the content? Got any evidence of Carroll Shelby / Pete Brock input on the design and engineering of Nissan's S30-series Z car?

Anything.....?

Alan T.

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Perhaps the text on the BRE site changed in the last few hours but I see the following for the rear spoiler.

This BRE Datsun 240Z Rear Spoiler (highlighted in yellow above) is similar to the one Datsun offered for the Zs at the time but is not identical. The rear spoiler BRE ran on their 1970-71 Championship 240Z racers was slightly higher so as to be more effective at the higher speeds the BRE Zs would run and be balanced with the affects of the front BRE air dam. It'll fit 1970-1973 240Zs.

The text that Alan quoted for the rear spoiler is closer to what is currently stated for the front air dam.

This BRE Datsun 240Z Air Dam (highlighted in yellow above) was designed by Peter Brock, as a derivative of his famous "spook" concept he created for the BRE Datsun roadsters in 1969. This particular BRE Air Dam design ran on our 1971 Championship 240Z racer. It'll fit 1970-1973 240Zs.

Hopefully this was a simple copy and paste error that was unintentional.

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Perhaps the text on the BRE site changed in the last few hours but I see the following for the rear spoiler.

You're right, Mike. They've changed it. In reaction to this thread, no doubt.

Hopefully this was a simple copy and paste error that was unintentional.

They illustrate the ribbed rear spoiler ( as seen on - for example - the original #46 BRE race car ) but I believe I'm right in saying that the taller rear spoiler was later, and was not ribbed. It was sold with Interpart no.2701010 in the later ( early 1973 ) Interpart catalog.

Does anyone ( Ron Carter? ) know for sure that the ribbed rear spoiler seen on the #46 car was actually taller than the factory 432-R rear spoiler? They look the same to me, whilst the later ( smooth ) Interpart rear spoiler does look taller than the later - factory - unribbed rear spoiler.

Open question: So which rear spoiler are they putting back into production? The ribbed one, or the ( taller? ) smooth one?

Alan T.

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So what name would you give this spoiler on the BSR/Newman 280Z?

It's much taller than the BRE version and more upright.

Not sure of the history, designer, etc.

Alan, your thoughts....

post-7328-141508116417_thumb.jpg

post-7328-14150811642202_thumb.jpg

Edited by gnosez

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gnosez,

I'm fairly sure that one was a purely American design. Certainly not a 'factory' / Sports Option part in Japan as far as I'm aware.

By late 1972, the Nissan works race cars in Japan were using the big three-piece rear spoilers, like this:

post-2116-1415081164239_thumb.jpg

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Your right, can I use your picture in reference to my contact and ask, because I'm restoring close to how the car was sold and this was a part on my car?

Sorry for the late reply, I was out all day after my post. Anyway, sure, feel free to use the pictures, although I believe I contacted the same person you did about the spoiler before I left and I got a similar reply to what you posted.

-Mike

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I'm just interested in the facts.

Neither Nissan nor BRE designed that rear spoiler - instead it looks like they both adapted almost directly - the rear spoiler designed, developed and styled by GM/Chevy for the 1967 Camaro.

http://www.camaro-untoldsecrets.com/articles/rpo_d80.htm

Front end "lift" reducing chin spoilers and rear spoilers for added downforce were all used on mass production models here in the U.S. years ahead of the Z.

FWIW,

Carl B.

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