Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
grantf

paint brand/supplier

Recommended Posts

so I am going to start rust removal on my 280 soon so far I have a replacement hatch and tabco doglegs are on the way, I still need to get some other repair panels including the hatch deck. Anyhow I plan on spot priming the repairs as I go. so my question is what paint/primer brand have any of you used and where in seattle would I find a paint supplier, I haven't painted a car in about 20 years (I'm getting old wow!).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You have 22 PPG dealers in your area. Click the link below and enter in your zip code.

https://buyat.ppg.com/refinishweb/locator/locator.aspx

If you are just covering up the bare metal until you can get around to finishing it properly I would go with just a basic grey primer.

If you are going to take it to bare metal on the repair spots then continue with the rest of the body you might as well hit it with the DP line of etching primers from PPG after proper treatment of the steel.

I went with PPG because it was available in my area and I have heard good things about it. Another plus was the fact that the supply house was willing to take the time to tell me about the paint and the process which was helpful when choosing my body and paint shop. I knew enough at this point to not get taken advantage of.

There are lots of threads here that relate to paint prep, all offer individual oppinions but I would find a dealer that offers 1 day classes to get you up to speed on the latest technologies as a first step.

Good luck and post some pictures of the process.

John

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Paint has changed significantly in the last 20 years... heck in the last 5 years! Whatever paint brand you learn first will probably be the one you'll stick with, so pick a good one. PPG is the one I use because my local paint shop carries it and PPG is consistently high quality. PPG has many lines (systems) of paint from economy to top-end. As previously mentioned, the DP epoxy primers are excellent and provide tough, bare metal protection. Recommendation is to put it on the clean metal surface prior to any Bondo work. I know this is a foreign concept to old school bodymen, but it's PPG's recommendation. Plastic body fillers have improved greatly in the last 10 years too.

The paint Spec Sheets are the only thing you should follow, not the advice of friends, or Internet car forums ;). Print them out and keep them in a notebook in the garage for reference. Do not try using catalysts/hardeners from different systems, or manufacturers. Also, once opened, the catalysts/hardeners absorb moisture and begin to break down. You won't realize the mistake until you shoot the paint and see it do strange things as it cures. Use only fresh catalyst/hardener, that is, only buy what you know you'll use on that job - 1/2 pint, pint, quart, etc., and date stamp the can, so you know when it's ripe for disposal. A couple of months is probably OK, but ask your paint dealer.

I've used the PPG Omni "economy" line for chassis parts that don't show, and it's good stuff, and much cheaper. PPG is coming out with an improved Omni that I'm considering for one of our "daily driver" projects' exterior paint. I still like the more expensive Deltron (DBC/DCC) for more serious work. They also have a line up from that, if price is no object.

Good luck!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I still like the more expensive Deltron (DBC/DCC) for more serious work. They also have a line up from that, if price is no object.

Wow, I didn't realize there was a line up from Deltron. As I recall when my car was painted 5 years ago the PPG Deltron came to about $800 for the one gallon needed to paint the whole car.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Like Grantf, I plan on doing small sections at a time; IE a dog leg followed by another than some small hatch area. I was planning on using an epoxy primer because I was told that it will seal as opposed to regular old primer.

I understand the need to stay with a "system".

So, is it a good idea to stay withe epoxy or etching primers while the loooonnnngg process is ongoing? I dont plan on the car getting wet, but I do live with Houston humidity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mike, is it safe to assume that the cost of the paint + the clear cost $800?

The reason I ask is that my Deltron Clear cost $400 plus catalyst and the paint was $350 plus reducer at "shop" prices this spring. Total of about a grand plus a few hundred for the DP74LF epoxy primer and catalyst and about $300 in K36 primer and catalyst in 2010 prices. So I have about $1600 in paint/clear/primer alone plus about 5 grand in labor from the shop but it's gonna look great!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
...So, is it a good idea to stay withe epoxy or etching primers while the loooonnnngg process is ongoing? I dont plan on the car getting wet, but I do live with Houston humidity.

I am not a pro by any means but what I know is that epoxy/etching primer is used for adhesion. It adheres to the bare steel and allows the subsequent layers of primer to adhere to it. Then the primer/sealer allows the base coat to adhere to it. It all goes back to the "system".

I dont think that etching/epoxy primer is designed as a sealer and I don't know how long I would leave that alone on the car without a primer/sealer on top. You might be ok for a month or two but your local ppg shop would be able to tell you for sure.

John

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, I think it was paint+clear for $800. As I recall I went to the paint shop and that was the total bill. The painter picked it up later. I may have paid for primer and such earlier in the process and yes, my total price 5 years ago is very close to what you're indicating. I don't know how much body work you needed so that's obviously a big component of the labor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for all of the great info. I will most likely use epoxy primer as a spot primer as I progress, Has anyone used Wesco as a supplier?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mike, Labor is determined by market. I had a little bit of welding on my floor pan rails (They were pushed up from somebody jacking it up in the wrong place) and I found 3 pinholes of rust in the drivers dog leg so I had him replace both sides. The rest was blocking, priming and some minor dings. I was lucky to find a very well cared for car.

I had him keep track of the time he worked on the car for me and it is about 100 hours so far. The car is ready for base/clear, just waiting for a clear day to trailer it back to the shop. After that he will wet sand and buff.

The fortunate thing for me is he "thought" it was only going to take him about 70 hours total. I had him sign a contract and he kept to his quote and did not exceed the cost.

Lucky me, from what I understand that is a rarity in todays market.

John

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The advantage in pricey top end paints is the number of tints available for them and the amount of "solids" suspended in them. The tints make it easier to match to what you want now and years down the road to make up for fading in touch-up work. The solids allow you to achieve the color in the least number of passes. If you buy PPG Omni at half the price of PPG Deltron, it might take twice as many coats to get the same color and depth you want, so be careful. The Clear Coat is the same. Deltron DCU2021 Clear is expensive, about $225/gal "kit", however, it has a lot of solids in it that makes it go down smooth and quick. My paint store guys tell me to buy the Deltron Base Coat and use Limco Clear ($125/gal "kit"). The Clear is not as critical as the Base and is intended to be "sacrificial" anyway.

Another thing to consider for those wanting to do a "sympathetic restoration" of the 240Z is that a Base Coat / Clear Coat system will be drippy glossy and not look at all original. It would be best to go with a Single-Stage paint, which is effectively BC and CC mixed together, still requiring a catalyst/hardener. The guys in the paint store will tell you it won't be as durable as BC/CC because a micron layer of CC provides ultra-violet protection of the pigments beneath. The damaged layer can just be compound away as required. However, my argument is that these cars are long past the day when they were kept outside apartments and dorm rooms in the elements by twenty year olds. We only bring them out on nice days and pamper them, so the Urethane paint, which is incredibly durable to begin with, will last a WHOLE lot longer than the original paint. The cost of Single-Stage might not be cheaper than BC/CC, so prepare for that, and it's a bit more challenging to shoot, but the look is more in keeping with original. PPG makes a Urethane Enamel Single-Stage paint called Delstar, which is good for matching the original Enamel look.

Edited by pwd

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are alot of paint products all claiming to be the best which ever you choose do not cut corners to save money.They all have epoxy primers that is the norm these days if you don't do all the steps you were talking about the high prices they are double to redo.As far as base clear vs single stage.Single stage will most look like factory depth to gloss if you are looking for deep shine and durability its base clear.If you use a good clear it should last the life of the car.If you keep it in a garage and rub on it all the time a urathane color should be just fine.hope this helps

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you are going to consider using PPG paint lines, stay away from Omni.

Omni clearcoats are very tempered. They are very sensitive to area temperature when painting, even with the correct drying/ temp/ speed products used for your application.

Omni has just about the lowest level of solids that I have ever used in comparison to any other base line basecoat, clearcoat or single stage paint. I just finished shooting a 1970 Superbee in Omni base/ clear in a bright, non-metallic green. It took six coats of basecoat, with tac-cloth between coats to get it to cover. I let the two medium coats of clear sit for almost an entire month and it still shrunk up after cutting and polishing it, 3 weeks after the fact. This is due to the high ratio of solivents to solids in the clear. The bit of clear that I had left in the gun liner that I let dry shrunk up to just about 80% of it's original dimensions.

I have used just about every brand of paint and I do think that there are far better choices for the money over PPG products, but they are still good products.

I would have to say that Sherwin Williams are probably the most user friendly products that I have used, while PPG are the most picky.

The best finish that I have seen so far would be Glasurit, followed closely by Sikkens. Glasurit is the high end of BASF chemical/ paint's line and Sikkens is the high end product line under Akzo Nobel.

If you are looking to spend less money, I've discovered that DuPont's price line Nason is much more user friendly, dries quicker and doesn't shrink back nearly as much as Omni. It's a significant amount cheaper than Omni as well. Their basecoats are just as good as covering as Omni or any other price point product, but as long as you tac cloth between coats and go until you don't see any coverage change, it doesn't matter how many coats you have under the clear. You are only looking for color coverage with basecoats.

PPG is the most popular among body shops in the united states, much like Toyota or General Motors as a car company, but they are not the best from my experiences. My paint and metal shaping teacher hated it, even though our school switched from Sikkens to PPG for cost efficiency.

One of the best newer products that I have used to eliminate waves and reduce shrinking of primer surfacers are polyester primers. They are a direct to metal application and are polyester resin based, like body filler, only much thinner. You need a pretty large tip in your primer gun like a 1.6, but it is amazing stuff, when used with a long board and 180 paper before primer surfacer.

I've used urethane and enamel single stage paints and I wouldn't advise using them. The new urethane single stage paints are formulated using basecoat toners with a different binding agent and urethane clear solids. The end result is relatively the same, without the depth of shine as a true base/ clear application, but as explained above, the UV protectant is just not as residual.

It's also not very friendly for repair or any kind of work you may want or have to do on the painted panel. If you have a metallic and want to color sand/ polish texture out, it will remove more of the aluminum and formica powders out of the paint in those areas that make up the metallics and you will see it in the finished result. The same goes for wet sanding metallic basecoats without recoating/ blending a sand/ repair area, like a piece of dirt or dust that you don't want to clear over.

Even the low end basecoat/ clearcoat paint applications are better than any factory paint. There is no need to baby it other than routine cleaning (and waxing after six months). You can leave it outside and it will not hurt anything.

I actually prefer using higher solid clearcoats on drivers over show cars that live indoors. As far as I know, Glasurit has the highest level of solids and highest clarity and gloss rating in the market today.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dave, thanks for the great info. By the way, PPG bought the company that made the Omni line and introduced an upgrade about 6 months ago called "Omni Plus." This may have some promise for cars that will fall between "driver" and near "show" status.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've used it as well. It doesn't act up nearly as much as Omni. It seems to be a more forgiving product to use than standard Omni basecoat/ clearcoat, but I've had the same shrinking results with it.

The '70 Bee that I shot a few months ago was standard Omni. I cut and polished all of the texture out. It's flat, but I'm not too pleased with how it shrank. I did make sure that my primer was perfect before shooting it, so it's not very noticable, but after seeing it right after I cut and polished it compared to now, I know that it shrunk.

I don't know that anybody could tell the difference unless they saw a before and after in person, but I'm going to avoid that line all together in the future. I didn't have a say about what product to use, but the results convinced my boss against using it again.

DeBeer is also good paint that is user friendly and not too expensive under the Valspar brand, but the company isn't all that great according to one of the reps that I used to get supplies from.

Edited by DaveBonds

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PPG also sells a line call Shop Line which is a step above Omni and only available through Gold PPG Dealers. My painter shot PPG for 25 years and says the Shop Line is far superior to Omni.

Dave, have you used Shop Line?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't have any qualms with Shop Line, along with any other PPG product aside from the Omni line. I'm not sure if that line has it's own toner bank for basecoats or if it is just a compatable topcoat, sealer 2k primers, etc.

I just haven't had any reason to use it or go out of my way to buy it for anything. I used some up that we had around from last year, when our shop finished a '69 Dart Swinger with it. I didn't have as hard of time dealing with die back when I polished it. I haven't used it since, but I may suggest it again to my coworkers as an alternative to the low end stuff that we do, since they're so gung-ho on PPG at my shop. hahaha...

If I'm going to buy clearcoat for anything that I plan on keeping, I'll spend the dough on Glasurit, if it will see the road and if I plan on keeping the car.

If I had a budget in mind for a project, I'd go out and get some Nason. It's the quickest drying, highest solid level in a budget clearcoat. You can also purchase higher solids catalyst for that clear as well. I like using fast drying clearcoats, but you have to pace yourself differently, doing a complete paint job with them. It's usually a good idea to mix up all of the clear that you know you will be using with a pitcher and bring it into the spray booth with you, so you aren't wasting time mixing.

I usually mix up enough to do one full coat. On a 240, I would mix about two litres or just under three quarts sprayable material for one full coat on the outside and bring it into the booth with me, so I can reload my gun immediately, stopping just after finishing up a complete panel before actually running out in the cup of the gun. This will allow me to make a complete round on the car without the paint locking up where I started, before letting it flash cure for the next coat.

Edited by DaveBonds

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree.... Omni sucks!!! PPG is all I use. Epoxy primers are great and protect from UV and water where as standard primers do not.. My hood on my 510 is sprayed with PPG etching primer and then black epoxy primer. That's all that has been on there for 2 years and it still looks like the day I sprayed it.

I would always suggest spraying sealer before top coat. Sealer is primer with hardener and will form a barrier so that the base coat and clear coat do not react with the chemicals under the sealer. I learned that the hard way as I had a number of jobs wrinkle or lift after spraying standard primer and then base/clear.

It is very expensive to paint a car even when you do it yourself. Well that would be the case so long as you use quality materials.

I usually figure $1k+ for all materials to do an entire car yourself using PPG products.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love the black hood look on the 510. I'm a sucker for R code SuperBees and Roadrunners too. I wouldn't mind owning a 432R with a black hood as well, but that's just because of the black hood... yeah.

PPG does make a flattening agent (DX685) that adds to clearcoat in a desired amount, for the desired level of gloss/ flat if you ever have issues with your hood.

I know that matte clear cleans a lot easier than untouched primer and the texture lays down flatter out of the gun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great info. So now I am thinking of using nason. But isn't shop line and omni the same product? I am not commited yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Omni and Shop Line are pricepoint product lines under the PPG (Plastics Polymers Glass) corporation. Shop Line has a higher level of solids than the Omni product line.

Nason is a pricepoint product line under the DuPont corporation.

Essentially, they are all composed of the same basic chemical compounds, but in different amounts and are formulated differently, even within each product line, depending on the painting conditions and what the desired finished product will be.

All modern automotive clearcoats are urethane based, and while they all have similar chemical makeup, they all have different amounts of each chemical and catalysts used, each having their own compounded ratios, abilities in use and in compatability with basecoats.

Basecoats by themselves do not have UV resistancy and are formulated as a color pigmented product to use for color coverage and control of color matching and blending. Most basecoats are laquer based with binding agents formulated to use in conjunction with clearcoat.

DuPont's Nason has a higher level of solid molecules against the ratio of solivent molecules in the mixed/ catalyzed, ready to spray material, versus PPG's Omni.

The level of solids in a ready to spray material changes how it handles while applying and how it handles in drying, color sanding and polishing, and against the elements. The solivents evaporate, leaving the solids on the applied surface. Contrary to the window of time to apply the material and the window of time handle the painted surface for washing, color sanding or polishing, most finishes take up to six months to fully cure, chemically.

So, you can imagine that the lower amount of solivents in application ready form that you have, the better finish you will have as it is curing.

Some of this information can be found on websites and at paint suppliers on what is commonly called a Proceedure or P-Page for any product in question.

The problem is that not all of the information is available on every product, like how strong or weak a solivent is. In my experiences, I've witnessed Omni having stronger solivents than a lot of other comparable paint lines. This makes them a bit more chemically unstable and less forgiving in use and with the final product. There are a lot of chemically created problems that can be left in a finished surface, due to improper application and drying times before, inbetween or after coating.

There are far better basecoat/ clearcoat systems from these companies as well as others that have superior solid levels and handling. You get what you pay forwhen it comes to automotive paints, but for a priceline product, Nason is very hard to beat. It is very forgiving for use, while still having a quality finished product that cures quickly.

The most important advice I can give anyone when painting is make sure your preparation work is dead on and to wait as long as you can before color sanding, if you decide or need to. The longer the sanding block can be to sand a panel, the straighter your car will be.

Edited by DaveBonds

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

thanks again for the info, Before I started body work I picked up ppg's epoxie primer to spot prime the bare metal. As I have now started welding in replacement sheet metal and used ppg's epoxie primer can I switch to nason for final priming color and clear? I can not really justify the cost of the more expensive paint as I am on a budget and my project car (280z) is not a full on restoration but more of a refresh.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.