Carl Beck

Hi Ben: FYI - just in case you don't have the book.. = = == Quoted From the book Mr. Matsuo and Mr. Katayama wrote; "FAIRLADY STORY DATSUN SP/SR & Z", and as translated by Brian Long = == = In this section Mr. Matsuo is telling how his original concepts for a world class sports car (a convertible with a 2.0L four cylinder engine), were over time modified by the realization that Nissan Management would do nothing to put his design concepts into production, hence a Change In Direction. Mr Matsuo enlisted the support of Mr. K, who he felt was the only person in Nissan Management that would listen to him. ... In turn he walks us through the evolution of the concept, as driven by requirements from the US market and Mr. K.. With Mr. K's backing and assurances to Nissan Corporate Management.. the Z car moves from "concept" and "styling alternatives" to pre-production and final design... = = =Quote - - A Change In Course: Regarding the Plan A series, in late-1966, we decided to approach the project in a different way. We heard of America's new safety regulations (MVSS), and realized it would be extremely difficult for an open car to comply, especially with the roll over requirements being cited. There were other factors, too, that made us abandon the softtop, such as poor rearward visibility, particularly in the rain, the cloth top flapping at high speeds and security. Mr. Katayama has always said a closed coupe was perhaps the ideal compromise, so we started to look into the possibilities of a hatchback, which would enable us to combine aerodynamic styling with good luggage capacity. {two paragraphs about pop-up headlights snipped..cjb}.... A Prototype Based On "Plan A" From 1967, work begin in earnest producing full-sized clays based on the Plan A proposal. One of the key Z styling features evolved during this period, namely the "sugar scoop" headlights. The SAE regulations stated they should be 60cm from the ground, but plastic headlight covers were not allowed in America at the time. However we offered the later item as an option in Japan. The final clay we produced was very close to the to the ultimate shape of the Z. Although the body was still a touch narrow, the roof-line a little too high, the bonnet much too low to accept the six cylinder L-24 engine, and there remained a lot of detailing to do around the windows and tail-end. I was basically happy with the result. By coincidence, at the time of it's completion, Mr. Katayama was back in Japan to see the 510 before it was launched. During his visit he ask to see the next generation sports car, so we lined up the various clays (including the early ones depicting convertibles) and his eyes went straight to the last one we built. He said this was just what he needed in America. With Mr. Katayama's support, the project finally started to progress and the engineering department became involved. Eventually, by early Autumn of 1967, we had produced a fiberglass prototype. It was allocated the "Z" designation (an appellation that would stay with the car throughout it production life). However, when the technical staff arrived to discuss the project, we found we had a number of problems. Mr. Katayama had requested the 2.4 liter L24 powerplant, while the Japanese market had exorbitant taxes on vehicles over 2000cc. Nissan had just taken over the Prince concern, and we were told to use their two liter S20 twin cam unit. (this eventually became the famous Z432 model incidentally). This powerful engine would require a stronger transmission, and the automatic version of the L24 equipped model required a much wider transmission tunnel; this in turn led to a reduction of interior space, so the only solution left open to us was to increase the width of the body. At the same time, the bonnet height had to be altered to accommodate the engines, and the roof-line was adjusted to suit. - - - - - - END Quote: - - - - - - - I believe that from the above statements by Mr. Matsuo it is quite clear that the design from 1967 forward, was driven by US requirements, Mr. K's inputs and only brought to production with Mr. K's support. No question that the flexibility to re-configure the design for additional sales in other markets was designed in from the beginning.. but selling all manor of different configurations in many markets wasn't the main goal. The main goal was to design a Sports/GT specifically to meet the expectations of American Customers.. Something that no other foreign manufacturers had done to that point. FWIW, Carl

Ben wrote: >...snipped... >I have talked with Matsuo-san personally and he told me that the Z was meant >to be a worldly car; one that would be acceptable in all countries. Thus, each >export market had a slightly different variation. Where do you get that it was >only intended for the US? It is very arrogant to say that. Hi Ben: I do not believe that I have ever said it was "ONLY" intended for the US. I said it was specifically designed for the US. As such, variations of that core design were pretty easily accommodated for sales almost anywhere in the world. I am sure that during the design process, considerations were made to offer the car in both Right and Left Hand Drive configurations. I'm also sure that during the design process and the production engineering process several variations were anticipated. No doubt in my mind that Nissan wanted to sell a few into their home market. There is also no doubt in my mind that Nissan Management felt there was only a very limited market in Japan for any Sports Cars. From the early 50's Nissan Management felt that sports cars were intended for their export markets. (this is written about almost everywhere you search for Datsun/Nissan Corporate history) I do get the impression that the Z Car was "specifically" designed for the US Market, based mainly on the thoughtful writings, and public speeches of the two men most directly involved. Mr. K and Mr. Matsuo. I too have personally meet both of them and talked to them. Mr. Matuso only briefly at Mr. K's induction into the American Automobile Hall Of Fame. (arrogant as we Americans are..we put the U.S. head of a Japanese Automobile Company in our Hall Of Fame!! While his kind hearted Management, at Nissan Corporate Japan, tried to shuffle him off into obscurity by forced retirement). Combine Mr K and Mr Matsuo's words (quoted below FYI ) with the fact that aprox. 148,000 Datsun 240-Zs were sent to the USA (aprox. 160,000 to North America including Canada's 11,198 units ) while aprox. 5300 were sent to all other Countries in the world combined. (Australia 2358, GB 1929, Germany 112, Holland 232 and France 672). #Figures from Nissan Motors Ltd. Japan, as published in their 280ZX Book. 160,000 to 5300. Doesn't look like a "World Car" to me. As a matter of fact, it was designing and building "world cars" that contributed to Nissan Motors Ltd. Japan going all but broke and being taken over by Renault. That is one of the reasons I refuse to refer to the Z Car as a "world car". It most certainly was not. The single most significant factor that made the Datsun 240-Z one of the ten most important cars in US Automotive History.. is the fact that Nissan changed their design paradigm way back in 1967, when instead of designing cars for their domestic market and exporting a few for extra sales, they focused on designing cars for the specific customers in the specific export market they wanted to sell into. The key here is the word "Customers" what the Customers in that market expected in an automobile and what the Customers wanted. In 1970 that was primarily the US market and American Customer expectations. Nissan Motors USA did extensive market research and Mr. K insisted that Nissan Japan build cars specifically for his American Customers. (unlike all other foreign sports car manufacturers at the time). IMHO to infer other wise, to argue that the DATSUN 240-Z wasn't aimed specifically and squarely at American consumers, wasn't designed specifically for the American market -- is to loose site of the single most important part of the Z Car Story. Successful sales alone, do not add up to becoming one of the ten most important cars in US Automotive History. Mr, K wasn't inducted into the Automobile Hall of Fame simply because he became the head of a Japanese Auto Manufacturers Subsidiary here in the US and sold lots of cars. The story of the Z Car is about the paradigm shift in how foreign automobile manufactures designed and marketed cars in the US... about how that paradigm shift impacted the entire US Automotive Market... and then the worlds automotive market. FYI The following as Reprinted in John B. Rae's "NISSAN/DATSUN A history of Nissan Motor Corporation USA 1960 to 1980 (authorized by Nissan Motors Ltd. Japan). At the introduction of the Datsun 240-Z in Oct. of 1969, Yutaka Katayama said to the employees of Nissan Motors USA the following: - - Quote Mr. Katayama - --- With the introduction of the Datsun 240-Z, Nissan will have enjoyed the accomplishment of covering the American market from the Pickup to the Personal Sports Car. We are proud to have been able to cover all purposes of motor car use, and for our Datsun dealer network, the new 240-Z affords an opportunity to create an exciting new image. 240-Z represents the imaginative spirit of Nissan, and was designed to please a demanding taste that is strictly American. It meets all the requirements of sports-minded drivers, fulfilling their desire for superb styling, power and safety; and provides them with the most thrilling, and enjoyable ride available in any car." Our new product reflects the rapid advancement of our company, and its development will be unique in automobile history. We have studied the memorable artistry of European coachmakers and engine builders and combined our knowledge with Japanese craftsmanship. The result is an exotic, high performance car exclusively for America. It will be the beginning of a new romance for true car lovers who believe that motoring is more than just a commute. We adopt this new 240-Z as an aggressive innovation in automobile building and take pride in having been totally responsible for its concept. Nissan offers this spirited car with affection - its heart is Japan and the soul is American. = = = = = = .....end quote...... = = = = = = I would say that is pretty straight forward and pretty definitive language from the Father of the Z Car, who fully understood what had been accomplished. No sales or advertising hype.. he was talking to the Nissan employees honestly from his heart. If both men say it was designed specifically for American and Nissan Motors shipped 90% of them here, I'll take their written words and actions for it. Quite frankly I see no rational basis to dispute it. See Mr. Matsuo's words in the next Post.. Carl

NovaSS wrote: > ...snipped. >.. Carl says its worth $500.00 ... Hi NovaSS: I know you just may be razzing me.. but actually I intentionally did NOT say "it was worth $500.00". More correctly I said..." in my opinion it would sell for between $500.00 and $1500.00 USD". You ask for our thoughts, and I gave you my honest opinion. I did not assign a "worth" to the car, rather what I believe would be the range within the market at which it would actually sell. I felt it was better to arm you with what I felt was the truth.. than to let you keep it until you actually needed the money, only then to find out you couldn't sell it for as much as you had hoped or others hand thought. As far as I know, right now anyone can buy HLS30 00040 for $5,500.00 or $6,500.00 . It is a very solid, all original California Z (meaning never wrecked nor highly modified and not badly rusted) running car.. a very good candidate for full restoration. I can not see anyone paying the mid point of Chris valuation..$5,250.00 for your Z, when for the same money they could buy an easily restorable, solid bodied Z. Supply/demand and market competition for few buyer dollars... Chris said he paid $2350.00 for #27... also with extensive rust damage. But Chris also received hard to find new OEM parts with the car - IMO well worth $1,000.00 to $1,500.00 on ebay. Parts which he could apply directly to his #26. Also the brag factor of having sequential serial numbers is well worth a few hundred bucks to any of us.. deduct the value of the new parts and what did he really pay for the car? It is also possible that someone out there desperately needs some parts off that car.. and at the same time winds up bidding against another equally desperate and determined bidder on ebay.. it's possible.. but I believe not really probable. Put it on ebay with a reserve of $5,100.00 and if it doesn't bring that.. sell it to Chris. Like everyone else.. just my perspective of the current market... FWIW, Carl

Hi NovaSS: First let me say that I'm a bit confused by the title. I thought you were Mike Harris, and that we had exchanged information about this specific car when we registered it on the Fairlady Z Register at Z Home some years ago... yet the title shows W. A. Robert jr. OK now to your questions: You wrote: >Carl, can you explain the idea that Fairladys were not produced until Jan 1970? > Nope, I can't explain it. I believe that you might be confusing the Datsun 240-Z with the Nissan Fairlady Z. I never stated, nor implied that Nissan Fairlady Zs were not produced in 1969. Indeed if you review Z Home you will see articles there on the Z 432's stating they were shown at the first auto show in 1969. If you review the Fairlady Z Register on the Z Car Home Page, you'll see your car listed there with Model Year of 1969... (it's been there since May of 2000). I have stated that there were no Right Hand Drive DATSUN 240-Z's produced in 1969. That was based on many facts, not the least of which is the fact that the lowest VIN sold to the public, that we have found and verified, for the RHD 240Z's is HS30 00004 in Australia. I have communicated extensively with the person that inspected it in 1970, then later bought and restored it. He and I are in full agreement that the car was most likely produced in late Jan. or early Feb. of 1970, based on his known history of the car, his farther research and documentation etc. (we could not verify in any way the HS30 00003 that was on ebay). Having seen HS30 240-Z's with VIN's of HS30 00350 and above, advertised as 1969 Production Year cars... I've tried to inform people that the sellers of these cars are mistaken. I believe both buyers and sellers want honest information. It was a common mistake based on previously confused information. (thinking that the HS and HLS series cars shared a common sequence of serial numbers... which they did not). >It has been stated that the first run of the 240z are sometimes found to >be titled as 1969 because of the sales date, even though its a 1970 model, >WHY ? Because they were sold/ titled in late 1969. I do not know where it has been quite stated that way. It has been stated by me that the some of the Datsun 240-Z's produced in 1969 were titled as 1969 Datsun 240's. Not because of their sale date, but rather because of their date of manufacture listed on their Manufacture's Statement Of Orign (MSO's). In 1969/70 it was common practice in many countries to keep "Model Year" the same as "Production Year". Thus their cars produced in 1965 were sold as 1965 Models, their cars produced in 1966 were sold as 1966 Models etc. (makes logical sense). The US was one of the few counties that brought new Model Year cars to market ahead of the beginning of the calendar year. So here in the US you could by a 1966 Chevy/Ford in Sept of 1965 or later. Titles for automobiles are issued by the individual States here in the US ... so the Selling Dealers have only a Manufactures Statement Of Origin (MSO) to start the process of applying to the State they are in, for an automotive title to be issued, which is then transferred to the buyer upon the sale. (in many countries this is handled at the Federal level). Many Foreign Car Dealers here in the US, followed the practice of their Manufacturer's Countries when designating the "Model Year" of the cars they sold. So when applying for a State Title, they listed the "Model Year" as being the same as the Date Of Manufacture given on the MSO. At about 1969/1970 with the increased competition of imports gaining market share, and therefore attracting ever more and more buyers that did not normally buy foreign cars.. The Dealers realized that by the time they received their "new" Models... it was Feb or March of the Calendar Year (due to release in Jan. and shipping times from the overseas factories), and they were now five to six months behind the US models coming to market..In turn the Customers expected significant discounts, as in their minds half the model year had already passed, and the domestic dealers were already discounting the "new" models. Nissan and their Dealers realized this just like all other major importers. So in the late 60's they started shifting their production schedules, and releasing their new models earlier, year by year. Being a completely new model, you can see from the schedule that Kats provided that the 1970 Model Year Z's actually started serious production in Oct. of 1969. (not uncommon for a completely new model start up) Once full production of the cars was rolling, you will note that the 1971 Model Year (the late model year) Series II Z's started production in Jan. of 1971. This was normal practice. ...But the Series III Z's (1972 Model Year) started production in 08/71. From that point forward Nissan and most other Manufactures outside the US shifted their production schedules to keep their Model Years, in line with the US Model Introductions. While all this was first happening around 1969/70, the Authorize Foreign Car Dealers were in many cases were a few months behind, so they continued business as usual (keeping Model Year the same as the Date of Manufacture) Once they saw the shift taking place.. most fell in line with it and started selling the cars they received in Sept. as their "New Models" and titling them as such. Which State Laws allowed them to do. Because this was not a coordinated change, you see today that we have a large overlap in the VIN's of the Series I Z's.. some being titled as 1970 and some being titled as 1971 Model Year cars. (this may be where you saw model year determined by Date Of Sale?? ie.. cars sold after 1 Sept. 1970 were mostly titled as 1971 Model Year cars.) This situation was ended when the Federal Emissions and Safety Standards started to drive new requirements, year by year in 1971/72. Now it would be against the Federal Law to sell a 1971 240-Z as a 1972 Model Year... even if they were identical in build, as cars are certified with the Feds year by year now. It would not surprise me that when your Fairlady was brought back to the States, the title clerk at the local DMV, took the Date Of Manufacture off the paperwork, and applied it as the Model Year (common practice for imported cars back then). The Dealer that originally sold HLS30 00020 titled it as a 1969 Datsun 240, I suppose in keeping with the then common practice, and it is still titled/registered that way today. You will notice that I did not question your Fairlady being a titled as a 1969 Model.... anyway, hope that answers your questions. kind regards, Carl

>Alan wrote: >Hi Enrique, >Since nobody else ( as far as I am aware ) has posted any serial / VIN number >information on this thread apart from me, I presume you are referring to the >figures that I posted - which relate to Japanese market models declared manufactured >in 1969. Correct? > >I posted production figures supplied directly by Nissan Shatai ( the people that made >the things ) Hello Alan: Is what you supplied, related to the production numbers supplied by Nissan Shatai, something different than the picture of the Production Schedule supplied to Kats, and which he published on this forum in an earlier discussion? Did Nissan Shatai supply different information directly to you? >and also Japanese government ministry records which show the VIN numbers of cars >declared manufactured during the 1969. Reviewing the Posts.. I do not see any VIN numbers. Where did you put them? All I see is a reported total, broken down only into two categories... ie. the number of 432's and all other. Most certainly not a complete listing of VIN's. If I understood Enrique's post, that was what he was getting at.. we don't see a complete listing of VIN's released by the factory. For those following the thread, a Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) is comprised of two parts, the first being model information and the second being the chassis serial number..ie. HLS30 00500 would be a VIN. >All of the numbers I posted are for JAPANESE market cars, as one of the first >posts on this thread quoted "300" cars manufactured for the Japanese market >during the 1969 calendar year - which was clearly wrong. Actually, if you want to get specific, it's you that are wrong. The statement was.."It seems the first batch of 500 240z heading for america and the 300 or so Fairladys that stayed in Japan were made in the last three months of 1969." As written the statement is correct... the first 500 240-Z's as well as the first 300 or so Fairldays that stayed in Japan were made in the last three months of 1969. The actual total numbers may have been higher... but the statement makes no reference to totals nor limits, minims nor maximums. The additional information related to the totals.. was interesting and IMHO should have been offered as "additional information", more so than a correction of wrong information. But then reviewing your Post... "All" of the numbers you Posted were most certainly NOT for JAPANESE market cars, as you also listed and commented on the "Export" numbers as well. >Compare these figures to what you see on 'zhome.com' regarding the "first 500" at your >leisure. Yes, I invite everyone to do just that. Please see: http://zhome.com/History/69ZArticle.html Please define and report specifically any information there that is "inaccurate". Every effort has been made to report clearly what we actually find. Where the owners of these cars have allowed, we also list them with additional information on the Z Car Registers. There you find not only the VIN's, but the Date of Manufacture, the Original Engine Serial Number, the Owners and their e-mail addresses. Where you quote reported totals by categories for the JDM cars. We list the actual complete VIN's of the cars found to be still in existence. The title of the Article is; "Finding The Remaining 1969 Production Year 240-Z's" A brief review of the article will also show that I discuss the fact that VIN's above 00500 were found and are reported. Nonetheless, the statement "the first 500 Datsun 240Z's were produced in 1969 is still correct. Quite possible the number is something greater than that.. but as EScanlon pointed out.. we still do not know how many of the units shown on a Production Schedule, actually received chassis serial numbers. For that matter we do not know exactly when that picture was taken, nor if that is a forward forecast (which production schedules usually are) or documentation of actual units produced, or some combination of the two. >I don't recall seeing ANY mention of the 1969 S30 and S30-S models on that site, >and one would be forgiven for imagining that they did not even exist. As I have repeatedly told you Alan.. I personally have only a minor side interest in the JDM Nissan Fairladys. So I have absolutely no motivation to spend MY time publishing information just to please you. Quite frankly it's silly of you to expect me to. I told you honestly and forthrightly that in my opinion, and the opinions of most automotive historians the real story of the Z Car, is the story of the DATSUN 240-Z. The JDM Fairlady's are simply an interesting side note in the overall history of the Z Car. About 10% of the total, sold only in Japan, they represent a few additional sales of what was from the beginning intended by Nissan to be an Export model. (as were all Sports Cars from Nissan after WW-II). As I offered in our first e-mail exchange on this subject in Nov. of 2001, if you think the information is worth sharing with the Z Car Community, then write interesting articles, document the facts as best you can, .. and we would be glad to publish it on the Z Car Home Page. I'm sure many people would be interested. I'm always interested in learning more about them, just not interested in spending my time doing the research and documentation. All the information on the Z Car Home Page, intended to be shared with the Z Car Community, has been freely contributed by people with an interest in the subjects they research and write about. On average "the Z Car Home Page" is visited 45,000 times per month, and an average four different articles per visit are called upon. (numbers taken three years ago, before we removed the hit counters -I'm sure it has increased by now). Instead of constantly criticizing the work of others, bemoaning the fact that for 90% of us the JDM Nissan Fairlady Z's are simply an interesting side trip to our main interests in the Datsun 240-Z's that we own ... I'd suggest that if you actually want Fairlady Z information on the Z Car Home Page; you simply do the work that everyone else does. Write the articles, gather the pictures, encode the html formats and submit them. As I do exercise editorial control over the site, I will publicly state that I will be glad to publish well written and factual information related to the Fairlady Z's submitted by anyone willing to do the work. I will farther state that I will not support a wacked out opinion that Nissan Motors Ltd. Japan, just got lucky with their Z Car and just happened to sell more than expected in the USA. Nor that the Z Car was actually intended to be anything other than an export model, aimed squarely at the US market. (as extensively documented by Mr. K and Mr. Matsuo themselves in numerous places). >The irony of seeing Carl Beck posting on this thread - completely ignoring the subject >under discussion in the title of the thread, surprise surprise - was not lost on me. I wouldn't expect it to be lost on you Alan, as you have now posted four off topic Posts to this thread yourself. The topic was a request for the value of one Fairlady Z located in the US... For that matter I haven't seen anyone answer the question in any specific manor. So I will, in my opinion it would sell for between $500.00 and $1500.00 USD. >Gave me a wry smile, actually. But nevertheless, here is a 1969-build Fairlady being >very relevant - in its own thread - and providing interesting conversational matter...... Yes, if you disregard the original request .... which every one of your Posts, and most others including mine did.. ie. what is the car worth?... or where are links that I can find the information at??". I will grant that it is one of the few threads we see that "was" specifically about a Fairlady Z, even though it was about selling it .... FWIW, Carl

Carl S wrote: >People seem to think that because we are discussing this now (in >2005) that the desire for things like a 5 speed wasn't known at the >time the 240Z arrived on these shores. That's not the case. It was >often discussed in trade magazines, and at race events by >enthusiasts as well. Also, I wonder what was the percentage of >Manual Transmission equipped 240Z's v.s Automatic Transmission >equipped 240Z's? 50/50? 60/40? 70/30? Maybe 40/60? (I don't think >so, but I really don't know) You sure don't find many of them (Auto >Trans Z's) around these days. The Auto trans seemed to be more >accepted in the 280Z, 2+2, and ZX models. Hello Carl. You are of course correct, there were enthusiasts that wanted a 5spd. and of course, finding nothing else wrong with the 240-Z the automotive magazines writers did have to say something negative (just to appear balanced). Although I thought that the cheap diamond patterned vinyl provided them with something negative to say If the enthusiast wanted a 5spd. he had only to tell his Dealer. It was easily ordered through the Parts Dept. and easily installed by the Service Dept. A brand new 5spd. cost $375.00 in 1970/73. (of course you could change the gear sets as well). If you were poor.. you went to the junkyard and got one out of the 2000 roadster, then purchased the parts necessary to convert it to the Z from Datsun Competition and installed it yourself.) I know several of people that did that.... most simply changed the rear gear. Nonetheless the 240-Z really was aimed at a far larger market as you suggest. The 240Z was by design a "Sports/GT", not a pure "Sports Car" in the more British sense of the term. Nor was it strictly a "Grand Touring Car"... It was by design a well balanced combination of the two, that was intended to have far broader appeal than either individually. The 240-Z was aimed at putting traditionally American "non sports car buyers".. into their first Sports/GT. Mr. K didn't want to just capture market share in the Sports Car market.. he really wanted to greatly expand the market, to include new buyers. Mr. K wanted to sell Sports/GT's to people that had never bought them before. Most Americans didn't buy the traditional Sports Cars because they were for the most part underpowered, harsh riding and cramped. Coming from Great Britain, Italy and Germany they did not enjoy a reputation for quality nor reliability. They were all but strictly "enthusiast's" cars. The 240-Z was also aimed at gaining market share in the "Second Family Car" market here in the US. Much the same as many compact cars were at the time from the Big Three. You didn't "Sell" the "compacts" from Ford, GM, Chrysler as "Family Cars" (at least that was not how they trained you to sell them) ... you sold them as Second cars for the family. Believe me, I sold a ton of 240-Z's rationalized as the perfect second car for the family.. The 240-Z offered more "utility" than any mere sports car of the era.. and as much utility as a Pinto or Vega (hatch backs).. 95% of their time driving, Mom or Dad were in the car by themselves anyway, so a two passenger car made perfect sense as a second car. (please sign right here ...). Features and the benefits of them, had to be rationalized in the buyers mind, before they would sign on the dotted line... The 240-Z was loaded with features and benefits that made it easy to rationalize as the second family car. (a side benefit was it was COOL... and BEAUTIFUL...a more Positive Image for the driver and it offered Datsun reliability) Since I sold these cars for a couple years.. I can only tell you about our Customers... Most (75% or more) had never even considered buying a "Sports Car" before they saw the 240-Z.. they simply liked the looks of the 240-Z and it was in the price range of other cars they were looking at. Of our 151 Z Car Original Owners... only about 32 of them had owned a Sports Car before... The Z was everything the traditional sports car weren't. The Z was roomy, rode well on it's fully independent suspension, was powerful and smooth, and it had Datsun's reputation for reliability. We received maybe one out of 20 240-Z's with A/T... I don't know if that was typical or not. But it seemed to be. A few people simply had spouses that refused to drive a stick shift... so the compromise was the Z with an A/T. I do not recall any of my customers wishing for a 5spd. (some of the people I raced or autoX'ed with did). Carl S wrote: >It carved out it's own niche in the market largely from Baby Boomers who were >coming of age, had no children, and wanted something exciting and different. >They were disatisfied with the quality and style and range of products from >Detroit. A lot of us (in that demographic) already had manual trans equipped >cars and considered them desirable. In a general sense I'd agree that the Baby Boomers were an important segment. More so for the influence they had on their parents. However, by it's original definition the Baby Boomers were born between 1948 and 1956..Now it seems to be defined as 1946 to 1962.. In 1970 the oldest Baby Boomer was 24 and not quite yet out of College.. or just out looking for a first job. They were also just the tip of the iceberg for the huge swelling of the population to follow. From 1970 to 1973 they really weren't that large a segment of the buyers. Most of the people that I sold 240-Z's too were between the ages of 28 to 38. Most(when I say most here I mean at least 80%) were married, most had at least one child. The vast majority had above average incomes, in the professions or trades (school teachers, engineers, architects, carpenters, draftsmen, contractors, small business owners etc.). I was 25 at the time, and I can tell you that I sold very few 240-Z's to people my age. Most people my age were buying 510's, 1200's and Pick-up's. (all below $2,500.00). For the most part my buyers were simply looking for something "special" to reward themselves with, while still making a rational purchase. I'd say that 95+% of them never raced, never auto-crossed, never used their Z as a "Sports Car". (just as 95+% of SUV never leave the paved highways). I would certainly agree that they were dissatisfied with the offering from Detroit at the time and they were looking for something "different". Carl S wrote: >I don't really think that tarriffs had much to do with the ability of Japanese >auto imports to compete in North America." You are correct. In 1970/73 there were no tariffs on Japanese automobiles coming into the US. Protective tariffs were common in Europe, carried over from the reconstruction after WW-II. A tariff was later placed on "commercial vehicles".. which caught the Pick-up (so they were simply shipped without their bed, then "assembled in the USA") Carl S wrote: >Another interesting point is that about the time Mr. K left the USA was when >the Z cars began to morph into larger, more cushy "American" styled cars. Actually, the same process of market research that lead to the 240-Z for the US, also lead to the 280ZX for the US. While you and I didn't like it as much... the 280ZX sat new sales records. The Z evolved with the generation of people that originally purchased it. As they got older, the feedback they gave Nissan was that they wanted more luxury (power windows, power steering, cruise and GOOD A/C)... The mistake that Nissan made was not coming to market with another car that the younger generation wanted... to keep them in the Datsun/Nissan fold. Of course the other mistake was to change the Brand Name at the same time... da.... I personally believe that if Mr. K had stayed in the US, those major mistakes would not have been made by Nissan. Carl S wrote: >I do agree with the statement that......."When you're selling an item with a 6 >month wait, you can literally produce what you want and the demand will snap it >up." I'd phrase that somewhat differently to reflect the actual situation. "When you're selling an item with a 6 month wait, you ARE producing what the customers want.. don't screw with it!! anyway, just my perspectives... kind regards, Carl B.

Hi Kats (everyone): First let me say that from memory only... I recall replacing the smaller OEM Oil Pressure Sending Units (25240-89910) on the L24's with the much larger units from the 2000 Roadsters. It was a long time ago and I could be remembering it incorrectly. Or maybe I need to order another Roadster Sending Unit to remind myself what they looked like... Second: In my Nissan Parts Manual revised June of 1974, it shows: 25070-89910 Switch Oil Pressure From 08/73 In my Nissan Parts Manual revised December of 1979, it shows 25070-89901 Gauge Oil Pressure From 08/73 Is it possible that by Dec. 73 they "corrected" the part number, changing it from 25070-89910 to 25070-89901? Or did they create an error with that change? Checking the online Parts Sources.. 25070-89910 good number Sw Oil Press $46.36 25070-89901 supercedes to 25070-89972 Sw Oil Press $46.32 25240-89910 good number Gauge Oil Pressure $10.96 It would be interesting to "see" what part you would get today, if you ordered the 25240-89910. It would be interesting to find what part number is listed in the 2000 Roadster Parts Manual. The car pictured in the Jan. 1970 Road & Track... which we believe was HLS30 0006, 00007 or 00008... has the Large Oil Pressure Sending Unit shown. The car pictured in the Aug. 1970 ROAD TEST Magazine also shows the Large one. The car pictured in the Oct. 1971 ROAD TEST Magazine also shows the Large one. (first tests of the Automatic Transmission). If I can find an old oil pressure sending unit... I'll let you know what I find. Right now however it would seem that you have the correct unit for the early L24's in the Datsun 240-Z. kind regards, Carl

Hi Kats: On your web site, you show what you call an "early" oil pressure switch. That "looks" like the "Oil Pressure Sending Unit" that was used on the 2000 Roadster's. Many people switched from using the oil pressure sending units that were supplied on the L24, to using the ones for the roadsters because the ones used on the roadsters were more accurate and held up better. The hyper-link to "Rubber glomet for cables" http://www.geocities.jp/datsunz903/workrub.html results in either a blank page being displayed, or I get redirected to some other Google site. Can you fix that link? I'd like to know what/which rubber Grommet you need. Screws for door strikers: I believe that the silver one's shown are as original.. but I will go pull the one's for HLS30 00020 to see what they look like. All the Z's here at the house have the silver bolts shown (71, 72, 72, 73). Do you know the difference between a "screw" and a "bolt"?.... Have you ever been bolted? (an old joke;-) kind regards, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Kats: When I spoke to Mr. K the first time in Atlanta 1995, he said he took the "FAIRLADY" badges off the first Z Cars and replaced them with "DATSUN" emblems. Although we did not specifically state it... I believed at the time he was talking about the first three production cars to arrive in the States... they are also known as the "Press Cars" which were later given to the race teams HLS30 00006, 00007 and 00008. According to articles written at the time, the first ship from Nissan that contained Z Cars for sale to the public, held 36 DATSUN 240-Z's and arrived in early Jan. 1970. According to Mr. Brock, BRE received their first Z from the second boat-load which contained several hundred 240Z's in Feb. 1970... that is why BRE started their race car program three months after Bob Sharp Racing got one of the Press Cars in Dec. of 1969. You may recall that John Morton had to use a 2000 roadster, up-classed from D-Production to C-Production to gain enough championship points, to make the 1970 SCCA C-Production Class, American Road Race of Champions for 1970.. (which of course he won for BRE). Years later, in Dearborn at the Induction Ceremony for Mr. K into the Automobile Hall Of Fame in 1998, Les Cannaday and I were standing in the Hotel hallway around our rooms talking to the man that was the L.A. District Sales or Service Manager in 1969... I'm sorry I can't think of his name right now and I'm not sure of his position. He told Les and I the same story and said he was there at the time and he was the person that went and got the "DATSUN" emblems to put on the cars. Sorry I can recall the man's name, we meet so many people from the very early days of Nissan USA at that ceremony I had a hard time keeping them straight. That same person is the one that remembered selling the BRE Baja Z for Peter Brock in 75... so Les or I should have his name somewhere.. He was a tall/big man and may be the person in the films... I'll let you know if I can find his name again.. I don't think that there is any question that Mr. K personally removed the "FAIRLADY" badges from the Z... He said he did and others that were there at the time have confirmed it. FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com IZCC #260

Hi Go240Zags (everyone): Believe it or not.. I'll get this discussion back to at least DATSUN and 240-Z's, even while keeping it associated with Spokane, Washington! Don't want to hijack the thread, but traffic is slow... First... all 240-Z's came with lap belts and shoulder belts. Both being required by the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS). In the Series I, 1970/71 model years the two had individual buckles. One for the lap belt and another for the shoulder belt. From the Series II "Late Model 1971" and forward model years, the shoulder belt hooked onto the seat belt's male side of the buckle. As you mentioned and I am told - one can use the retracting mechanism from the 280Z 2+2, although I've never done it. I happen to like the manually adjustable types far better. Meanwhile, back in Spokane, Washington.... Yes, I know Paul. I actually purchased my first 240-Z in March of 1970 from Valley Datsun. Paul Jaremko sold it to me.... that is a long side story in and of itself... I had been at the local Porsche Dealer trying to trade my 67 911S in on a 1970 911E..... we couldn't get together on the price (they wanted to give me next to nothing for my 911 and they wanted top dollar for theirs..). I also had a 1955 Ford Thunderbird at the time. So as I was on my way back to Fairchild AFB... I happened to pass Valley Datsun and they happened to have a silver 240-Z in the showroom window. It was late in the day and I thought they were closed, so I turned around and went back to look in the showroom windows. I had never seen one before and wondered what it was... whatever it was, it was beautiful!! As I peered in, Paul came out of his office, saw me standing there... and motioned for me to come to the side door. He let me in.... and to make a very long story short... I bought that car. HLS30 001777. Being assigned to the 92nd Bomb Wing of the Strategic Air Command... in 1970... my 240-Z sat 6 months in the hangers at Fairchild, as the Wing rotated overseas... six months in SEA then six months in the States... While in the States, Paul and I went auto-crossing on the weekends etc... and I wound up selling DATSUNS for him evenings and weekends...(while off-duty at the base). When I was finally discharged from the service, I took a job as New and Used Car Sales Manager at Jaremko Motors (downtown store). I am proud to say that Paul and I were friends, and still are to this day. He and his entire family are typical of the people that make you proud to be an American. At the auto-crosses, no one could beat Paul. I don't know if you know it, but Paul Jaremko won Nissan their First SCCA Regional Championship in 1964. Paul completed 14 successive victories in a DATSUN SPL310. (as mentioned in John B. Rae's book on the History of Nissan USA). Fred and Pauline, Paul's parents, were among Mr. Katayama's first supporters and first Authorized DATSUN Dealers on the West Coast. Their Daughter and her husband owned the Dealership in Cor de'Lane, Idaho (Boudrey Motors) (spl??). So what does all this have to do with seat belts and shoulder belts in the 240-Z? If it wasn't for those very early Dealers and racers.. we would never have seen the DATSUN 240-Z by 1970. I still have the 1972 DATSUN 240-Z that I bought from Paul, at Valley Datsun at the end of 71. For that matter I still have a son that was born in Spokane in 73. Spokane is a town located in a beautiful area of the Country and it's filled with wonderful people. ( I just couldn't take the Winters and the Space Program was located here in Florida... so by 73 it was time to move). FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Ron: Ah.. gee, I wish you hadn't reminded me. One of the top 240-Z drivers in C-Production lost the SCCA Championship Run-off's at Mid-Ohio a few years ago... when it turned humid, started to rain and he then realized that his defrosters didn't work... he realized it even more as the second place car passed him to finish in first place... as he struggled to wipe the windshield so he could see... he had the defrosters working for the next season... (wish I could think of his name...) FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Go240Zags: If you were around the "Bubble Inn" between 69 and 73... then you would have at least mentioned Bing Crosby in the same breath as Gonzaga High School and Gonzaga University .... yes/no? Was it "Goofy's" that had the hot spiced wine in the Winter... anyway there was nothing else in the country like "Gonzaga Girls" back then.. and I enjoyed every minute of them... ;-) FWIW, Carl B. Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Guys: How about a real Ferrari... for $65K USD. http://adcache.collectorcartraderonline.com/10/7/1/76809171.htm The 365GTC/4 (four cam).. was picked as one of the Best of the Decade by one of the car mags. a few months back (where the 365GTB, was followed by the DATSUN 240-Z as First and Second for the 70's). For about $65K USD, you could buy one of the new Brock Daytona Coupes.. the replica's of the Shelby Cobra Daytona Coupe designed by Peter Brock. Under the Heading of Misleading: "HE ORIGINAL 250GTO SELLS FOR AROUND $3M USD AND I BELIEVE THERE ARE*ONLY 8 LEFT IN THE WORLD" All 49 originally built are accounted for...as far as I used to know, when I followed such things, all are still in existence. None were ever convertibles either. No doubt it was a fun project for someone to build... and it might bring around $10K to $12K USD if the right buyer could be reached... but I agree that this guy is simply dreaming. There was a GTO Kit conversion going on at one of the local Z Car Speciality Shops. It was there for many years ... but it had a real Ferrari V12, duplicate GTO Dash etc etc. - you had to look a little closer to realize it wasn't real.. wonder if the guy ever completed it..(de Elegance Z Shop here in Clearwater).. I think this owner simply wanted to get pictures of his car on-line. FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

Chris Wrote: >Carl, >I disagree with you. I thought we were talking about #1 car values >and your example is not a #1 car. No matter. Hi Chris (everyone): I numbered my examples, only so that they could be referred back to, later in that Post. Didn't mean to indicate that the example I numbered #1, inferred a #1 Condition car (it certainly wasn't written that way, with stone chips and door dings etc.). Everything I put in the example numbered "1", would apply to the green Z in the URL with the exception of slightly higher mileage and California rather than AZ car. (of course it sold for slightly less also). >Chris continued: >I also disagree with you about Black Pearls being sold without the stripes. I would of course be interested to know the basis for your disagreement. I can only tell you that I was at the Datsun Dealership here in Clearwater, when friends of mine working there at the time, were attempting to install the strip kits from the Sport Appearance Package (SAP) on one of the Black Pearls they received. >If what you say is correct, then ZCCA rules would indicate that the stripes > as a dealer installed feature would not be stock. Same apply for the ZZap? Are you sitting down?.... Not only were the stripe kits installed (or screwed up) at the Dealership - the entire Sport Appearance Package was. That included not only the stripe kits, but the Racing Mirrors and the Rear Sun Shade. Even more shocking, you may find the fact that not all Black Pearl Edition 280-Zs came with the SAP. Some had only the $90.00 Black Pearl Paint option (thus were sold with no strips, no racing mirrors, no rear sun shade). I put a copy of the Dealer Notification Sheet/PR Release and a copy of a window sticker for a Black Pearl on the Z Car Home Page a few years ago. http://zhome.com/History/BlackP.htm If your interpretation of the ZCCA rules were correct.. ie. that anything "installed by the Dealer" would not be considered "stock" -then the carpets and hubcaps aren't stock either, as they also came packed in the cargo area and also had to be "installed" by the Dealer. Nissan Motors Inc. USA put the SAP kit together here in the USA. The Shade Kit, which also included the Racing Mirrors was produced here in the USA and sold as a separate item over the parts counter, likewise the racing mirrors could be purchased individually (starting back in 72). The ZZAP-Zzzz decal package was produced here in the USA and I'm pretty sure installed by Distribution And Auto Services Inc. (DAS) at the Port of Los Angeles. They did the 79 280ZX-R package as well, along with many other "specials" (decal packages and special paint schemes) for the North American Market... such as the NFL Team promotional cars. Nissan Port Operations and DAS played a major role in the factory distribution process set up to provide the end customer with the cars they wanted, where they wanted them here in the USA. I think that for the ZCCA to be consistent in their definition of "stock"... they would have to say that stock is defined as; as the car and all items included by Nissan, arrived at the Authorized Dealer. BTW -- DAS installed "Port" A/C for example in the 260Z and 280Z's. The quickest way to tell the difference between Port A/C and the A/C installed at the factory in Japan, was to look at the fan speed selector switch in the dash. The Port A/C had a 3 spd. fan while the A/C installed in Japan had a 4sp. fan. And where did that "Black Pearl" paint come from you may ask?... a spray booth at the Port????..... no, no, no tell me that can't be true...!! FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Ricksaia: In that case, that's what I would do... it's easy enough to swap in the original engine. It would make the car far easier to resell and getting the full value of the car in stock condition, would be well worth the time and effort to swap in the original engine. While you have the L28 out, you can refresh the engine compartment as well. Then you could resell the L28 as well.

ZRush wrote: >....snipped.. >.....Beautiful Z but looks like just another black Z. I would never have >known the BP unless I saw the paint code..... Hi Vicki (everyone): Sometimes, people get so much money wrapped in a restoration, they fear doing anything that might reduced it's future resale value. In that case, retaining a set of Original OEM strips for that Black Pearl might not be too bad an idea. The people on the Black Pearl Register got together and had the strip kits reproduced, in that case I'm with you. I would have bought one of the reproduction sets, and put them on the car. Of course some people just don't like pin stripping on the Z's. In 1978 when the Black Pearls came out... many customers didn't want the strip kits installed. In other cases, the detail guys at the dealerships simply screwed up the strips when trying to apply them.. so the car was sold without the strips to begin with. It is the "Paint Code" (and the paint of course) that make it a Black Pearl.. the First Black Z Car Produced by Nissan... it was a test market for the 1979/80 280ZX model line up... to see if Americans would buy a Black Z. Of course they did, and of course we saw "Black Gold" ad.'s for the 280ZX's... So if you see a 1978 280Z with the Black Pearl paint... it's not just another black Z.. it is the first Z offered in Black and it was fairly limited in the numbers produced. ( I think there were something close to 1000 painted Black Pearl). FWIW, Carl

Chris Wrote: >I think your #1 description sounds more like the "high retail" and >"good to excellent" condition. In that case, I would refer you to >the Wall Street Journal and NADA guides. A 1970 model year with >only 57,000 miles would be well past the $15,000 point. Just look >at what happened to Burt's car. Hi Chris (everyone): With stone chips, door dings and 57K miles...? No. Nice as it is, that's a #3 Car.. Burts car has 14K original miles plus hours of detailing... it's a #2 car that with farther detail changes could be a #1 car. Here's one with slightly more miles...of course it's sold.. @$7,500.00. the new owner and his wife are VERY happy with this Z. See: http://ZHome.com/Adelle/CalZGreen.htm >In my opinion, "here's the original engine sitting on the floor over here" >has no value at all. Maybe tempting value, but parts in a box have no >value to the sale of a car. I think there is a difference between "parts in a box"... and having or not having the original matching number engine in a Classic Car. My point was also that having the engine (out of the car) would not "increase the value", but rather prevent the value from plummeting.... I would agree with Jerry... and that's the advice I give to people when they ask.. spare parts should be sold as "Parts For Sale".. and not thrown in with the car. At the time, as you point out, the parts thrown in with the car really have no significant value to the car buyer.. he is really interested in the Price of the Car. FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi ricksaia / everyone: I think the answer is that it won't be worth less, whereas it would be worth less if you didn't have the original engine. Just how much less depends on the overall condition of your Z to begin with. #1......Let's say that you had a 1970 DATSUN 240-Z. It's a one owner car with a known history. Bought and kept in AZ (Arizona is very dry)... it is completely rust free, never wrecked with 57K miles. It's Silver, no cracks in the dash, interior all but perfect.. Always maintained in top condition, you could get in it and drive to New York without a problem. (all hoses and belts are less than two years old, the brakes and clutch are fine etc.). There are only a couple very small stone chips and a couple of very minor door dings, but the paint is bright and shinny, as is all chrome. The frame rails are straight and rust free, as are the floorboards... That car would sell easily for $8,500.00 to $9,500.00 today (slightly less in California). It might take a couple of weeks, or even a couple of months to locate the right buyer... but he/she is out there now looking for this car. One might put an asking price of closer to $10,500.00 as someone might even pay that... #2.......Now let's say you have that same car... with the exception that you have an L28 in place of the original matching number engine... and you no longer have the engine. Now it is a $4,500.00 car... The people that buy Collectable Classic Cars... simply will not buy a car that is no longer capable of being "Restored". They will pay top money for one that is... and they will simply pass on anything that isn't. The person that will buy the car without it's original engine, is the person that simply wants a nice 240-Z to drive, to take to local club meetings/gatherings. The person that loves the 240-Z's but has no desire to ever "Restore" one... Or the person that wants a nice car to modify... These people will usually not be willing to pay anything close to $9,500.00 for a project car or a daily driver. Actually this car is too nice for them... unless they can steal it. #3......Now same car, only with the original engine not installed but available... Good running L28, 5spd. and R200 presently installed ...$5,500.00 to $6,500.00. $2000.00 deduction for taking the risk that the original L24 won't need to be rebuilt along with the work to reinstall it. The other difference is... you can sell #1 fairly quickly, you can sell #3 for slightly less money and it will take more time to sell. #2 will take the longest time to sell.... unless you lower the price. Now lets say that with "YOUR" car, you didn't keep it a factory color, you have a dash cover, the carpet is shot, the seats need to be redone... but it has a pretty paint job (which doesn't match the paint under the hood) and it runs well. Let's also say that it has a bit of bondo where the rust used to be, including the floorboards!!.. it needs a few mechanical details taken care of... and the chassis has about 190K miles on it.... it really won't matter a lot if you have the original engine or not. Just what I see in the market... Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http;//ZHome.com

Carl S. Wrote: >Does ANYONE have a "build sheet" for a Z Car? I have never seen , >nor heard of anyone who did. It is my belief that they simply do not exist. >Just because Chebby or Ford provided them doesn't mean that Nissan did. Hi Carl / everyone: I'd phrase it; "Chevy, Ford and others provide build sheets because their assembly line workers need to know what "factory options" should be installed on the car they are building. At the Dealerships, the New Car Sales Managers ordered cars from the factory, equipped certain ways for their inventory (depending upon what sold best in their locations) and they Special Ordered cars at their customers directions. Because the DATSUN 240-Z's for the North American Market had no factory options, there was no need for a "build sheet" for each individual car. The 240-Z's were most likely built following a daily or weekly Production Order. The Production Orders would specify the number of cars, the color of the cars (and therefore the color of the interiors installed), how many cars got standard transmissions and later how many got A/T's. The Production Orders would allow the assembly lines to be supplied with the needed parts... (so many white interiors, so many black interiors - so much white paint, so much red paint, so much gold paint etc. etc.). FWIW, Carl B.

gnosez wrote: >As an off-shoot for those wondering how a Nissan restored 240Z would >fair in a judged car show where ZCCA rules apply, an inquiry has gone >out to the individuals responsible for determining the rules for ZCCA's >"stock" class to see what they say about "resto-mod" or whatever you >want to call these 240s. I imagine it will take a few weeks to get a ruling >from this group of people but I will post it as soon as I hear. Hi Gnosez /everyone: A "Stock" 240-Z, A Modified 240-Z and a Vintage Z are three entirely different categories. I seriously doubt anyone that knew anything about the Marque would put any of them in the same category for a seriously Judged Competition. Secondly, the ZCCA depends to a large extent on the financial sponsorship of Nissan Motors. They would not be foolish enough to put Vintage Z's in the common classes of "Stock" nor "Modified" cars. The Vintage Z Program Cars are an Automotive Historic Milestone themselves and therefore will always be of more interest to the public and the serious collectors. Five years from now, there will most likely be 1000 Very High Quality Modified 240-Z's around, a 100 Pure Stock 240-Z's and 1 Vintage Z. Maybe the numbers are 4000, 400 and 40... Whatever the absolute number.. the ratio's well be about that.. Enthusiasts are always drawn to examples of the Marque that offer something more interesting in terms of their history. Cars owned by famous people, famous competition cars, factory specials etc. are simply "SHOWN"... they usually don't even compete in the normal Show Car Categories. FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Jerry / everyone: I'm not sure what happened to the Values on the NADA Web Site... However, looking back over the years, the NADA CPI Book has changed their "Definition of Categories" at least more than once. In 1989 their reported "HIGH" values were NOT for 100 Point Show Cars... In 1998 their reported "Excellent" values would seem to indicate that they are for 100 Point Show Cars. There Web Site... seems to return to their earlier definitions of categories.. ie "High" values are NOT for 100 Point Show Cars... Also notice their remarks related to data collection and "projecting values" in 1998... which wasn't there in 1989. Below are the remarks and definitions as published 1998 and 1998 (taken from books I kept). NADA Cars of Particular Interest (CPI) Value Guide: 1989 to 1991 Editors Remarks: The sources of data are auctions, dealer sales reports, market letters, club newsletters, CPI make and model surveys by questionnaires and other sources regarded as reliable. The market data is recorded and processed with the aid of computers employing editing processes which are standard in the industry. Definition of Categories: CPI does not assign condition categories to the column headings because values generally move in small increments and there are seldom well defined points which indicate condition. In a general sense, the LOW value represents an intact and functioning automobile which can be restored at reasonable cost. The AVERAGE value in indicative of a clean, front-line ready automobile. The HIGH value is representative of a car which requires nothing. It may be a show car, but not a 100 Point car. There are some cars in CPI which are rarely, if ever, driven, but most cars are assumed to be driven. = = = = = = = = = 1998 Editors Remarks: The sources of data are auctions, dealer sales reports, market letters, club newsletters, CPI make and model surveys by questionnaires and other sources regarded as reliable. The market data above is analyzed by CPI editorial staff and values are projected for the next edition. Definition of Categories: FAIR: Presentable condition. Runs and Drives and will pass a safety inspection. May be driven on a daily basis. Generally in need of a cosmetic restoration, but not a ""basket case". There are many cars on the road that fall below CPI Fair category, and well be priced accordingly. These are commonly referred to as "beaters", and are usually not worth restoring, as the restoration costs will usually all most certainly exceed the value of the finished vehicle. GOOD: Very nice condition. In fact most casual observers would describe the vehicle as "excellent". Good Cars show very little wear and are driven sparingly. Many are used as weekend drivers. Many older restorations fall into this category. EXCELLENT: Nearly perfect condition. The vehicle has usually been professionally restored to the current highest standards, but a few exceptionally well cared for original cars may qualify. All components are original or are an exact replacement. Most excellent cars are not driven more than a few miles per year, if at all. There are vehicles, usually due to an interesting history or special circumstance, which will sell for more than CPI's "excellent" figure, but these are extremely rare and would require extensive documentation. == = = = = = = = = Current Remarks on the Web Page: Definitions Of Categories: Low Retail Value This vehicle would be in mechanically functional condition, needing only minor reconditioning. The exterior paint, trim, and interior would show normal wear, needing only minor reconditioning. May also be a deteriorated restoration or a very poor amateur restoration. Most usable "as-is". Note: This value does not represent a "parts car". Average Retail Value This vehicle would be in good condition overall. It could be an older restoration or a well-maintained original vehicle. Completely operable. The exterior paint, trim, and mechanics are presentable and serviceable inside and out. A "20-footer". High Retail Value This vehicle would be in excellent condition overall. It could be a completely restored or an extremely well maintained original vehicle showing very minimal wear. The exterior paint, trim, and mechanics are not in need of reconditioning. The interior would be in excellent condition. Note: This value does not represent a "100 Point" or "# 1" vehicle *. * "100 Point" or "# 1" vehicle is not driven. It would generally be in a museum or transported in an enclosed trailer to concourse judging and car shows. This type of car would be stored in a climate-regulated facility. ========= End Quote = = = = = = BTW - Jan/Feb/March, 1998 CPI VALUES 240-Z For 1970 240Z: Fair: $2100.00 Good: $3750.00 Excellent: $7500.00 For 71-73 240Z: Fair $1900.00 Good: $3400.00 Excellent: $6800.00 For What It's Worth, given their Web Site Definitions of "High Retail".... there are some cars sold in that condition for $14K.... most are closer to $16K.. Given the 100 Point definition... $18K to $24K would be closer today IMHO. Super rare examples are even higher.. Carl

Hi Guys: If you look at the Vintage Air Web Site, you will see that they specialize in supplying the Street Rod and Custom Car markets (huge here in the US) They do build standard systems for commonly used Street Rod bodies ... They also offer a broad range of custom designed evaporators/heaters from which one can select the size/shape needed for custom applications. I'd say they go far beyond offering just a universal product, although one could nonetheless call it that. Their SuperCooler III hooks directly to the three existing outlets in the Dash.. I just unplugged the existing ducting from the OEM unit and stuck it back on the SuperCooler's three outlets. The Supercooler also has two outlets for the defroster vents.. I used the OEM holes for the heater hoses as well. I used the same mounting points for the SuperCooler, as were used for the OEM heater and aftermarket A/C kit. I did have to make a couple of strap hangers out of simple flat stock. You can get the SuperCooler with all electronic controls.. Of course when you remove the OEM system, the levers and cables that control it are also removed. (this also leaves more room for your radio/stereo) The weakness of the system is that it is a recirculate only system. Unlike the OEM systems in most cars today, you have no fresh air intake. Likewise you have to seal off the fresh air intake of the OEM Vent system... up under the dash. (the original aftermarket kits were also "recirculate only") I will say that given the number of small cars on the market today, all with great OEM systems installed in very limited space ... if one had the time to search, I'm sure that a typical Honda Sedan or Toyota Sedan would yield an evaporator/heater combination that could easily be retrofit into a 240-Z. Once you get into it, you see that it's really not a big job to do the installation of the components yourself. While the Vintage Air SuperCooler IIi puts out about twice the air flow of the original aftermarket systems, and it does cool the car here in Florida on 100+ F degree days... It still doesn't hold a candle to the A/C systems in my old 88 Chevy Pick-up. One of the main reasons being that the Factory systems are designed to introduce fresh air, and are therefore designed with far more total cooling capacity. Half the battle however is preventing the loss of cold air, while preventing as much heat absorption into the cabin as possible to begin with. Heavy window tinting, good body seals and floorboard insulation all have to be as good as possible. If you park the 240-Z out in the sun all day, due to the large glass area the interior becomes a huge heat sink and any system will have a hard time overcoming that heat load. If I were doing it again.. I might redesign the center console so cold air outlets could be supplied at the rear of the front seats. Just to get the heat out of the rear deck area quicker. FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Doug /everyone : In 1970, in the SCCA's C-Production Class, "aerodynamic devices" were not allowed to be added to the production cars. (this was a Production Class after-all). Peter Brock devised an air "spoiler" for the radiator combined with a brake cooling scoop" for the BRE 240-Z's that were being raced by BRE Racing. He told the SCCA's tech. inspectors that for the brake cooling ducts to work they had to scoop cool air in from the front of the car. No sir, that's not an "aerodynamic device", it is simply an air spoiler and scoop for cooling air for the radiator and front brakes. (allowed at the time under SCCA's rules). This was born the BRE Front Spook. (spoiler + scoop). Of course the fact that the Spook all but cancels the 140 lbs. of lift generated by the Z's body design at 70 mph, by adding 105 lbs of downforce was simply .... uh... a side benefit... ;-). The rear spoiler was a factory production part and thus allowed under SCCA's rules at the time. Although not "standard equipment" for the North American models, it was standard equipment on the Euro. Spec. Models (as was the 5spd which was also used in SCCA C-Production). The rear spoiler adds 75 lbs of downforce to the rear wheels and thus cancels the 20 lbs of lift at 70 mph on the stock car, and 35 lbs of lift at the rear with a front Spook installed.(adding downforce to the front of the car, pushes the rear up.. thus 35lbs. of lift at the rear with the front Spook installed). FWIW Carl Any 240Z driven on the highway really should have a Spook!

Hi Andrew /everyone: The Vintage Air unit actually sits higher under the dash than the old kits did. When I installed mine a couple years ago - Vintage Air didn't have the fully electronic controls they do now. So I simply make a replacement finisher panel for the center of the dash - with larger air outlets and no levers from the OEM system. If you remind me a few days from now - I'll try to get you some pictures.. It certainly doesn't look "stock"... but you might be able to retain the stock look with the new controls (you could put them in the glove box for example). What one really needs - for an A/C system that REALLY WORKS.. is to pipe cold air to the rear hatch area. With the present systems it is very hard to get good circulation of the air behind the seats... and that is where a lot of the HOT air is. If you park your car out in the sun... it's very difficult to get it cooled back down in less than half hour.. (where most modern OEM systems will cool a hot car down in minutes). E-mail me a reminder in a few days.. cbeck@becksystems.com FWIW, Carl

Hi Gee: Everyone has different expectations ... but the A/C in the 260Z works in just an OK manor here. It certainly isn't nearly a capable as any modern factory system. As I understand it, the Courtesy system is basically the same as the original add-on kits, with the exception of using a more modern rotary style compressor and being R-134a ready. Some people have told me they are satisfied with it... I guess it all depends on your local needs/expectations. FWIW, Carl