Carl Beck

Chris Wrote: >I think your #1 description sounds more like the "high retail" and >"good to excellent" condition. In that case, I would refer you to >the Wall Street Journal and NADA guides. A 1970 model year with >only 57,000 miles would be well past the $15,000 point. Just look >at what happened to Burt's car. Hi Chris (everyone): With stone chips, door dings and 57K miles...? No. Nice as it is, that's a #3 Car.. Burts car has 14K original miles plus hours of detailing... it's a #2 car that with farther detail changes could be a #1 car. Here's one with slightly more miles...of course it's sold.. @$7,500.00. the new owner and his wife are VERY happy with this Z. See: http://ZHome.com/Adelle/CalZGreen.htm >In my opinion, "here's the original engine sitting on the floor over here" >has no value at all. Maybe tempting value, but parts in a box have no >value to the sale of a car. I think there is a difference between "parts in a box"... and having or not having the original matching number engine in a Classic Car. My point was also that having the engine (out of the car) would not "increase the value", but rather prevent the value from plummeting.... I would agree with Jerry... and that's the advice I give to people when they ask.. spare parts should be sold as "Parts For Sale".. and not thrown in with the car. At the time, as you point out, the parts thrown in with the car really have no significant value to the car buyer.. he is really interested in the Price of the Car. FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi ricksaia / everyone: I think the answer is that it won't be worth less, whereas it would be worth less if you didn't have the original engine. Just how much less depends on the overall condition of your Z to begin with. #1......Let's say that you had a 1970 DATSUN 240-Z. It's a one owner car with a known history. Bought and kept in AZ (Arizona is very dry)... it is completely rust free, never wrecked with 57K miles. It's Silver, no cracks in the dash, interior all but perfect.. Always maintained in top condition, you could get in it and drive to New York without a problem. (all hoses and belts are less than two years old, the brakes and clutch are fine etc.). There are only a couple very small stone chips and a couple of very minor door dings, but the paint is bright and shinny, as is all chrome. The frame rails are straight and rust free, as are the floorboards... That car would sell easily for $8,500.00 to $9,500.00 today (slightly less in California). It might take a couple of weeks, or even a couple of months to locate the right buyer... but he/she is out there now looking for this car. One might put an asking price of closer to $10,500.00 as someone might even pay that... #2.......Now let's say you have that same car... with the exception that you have an L28 in place of the original matching number engine... and you no longer have the engine. Now it is a $4,500.00 car... The people that buy Collectable Classic Cars... simply will not buy a car that is no longer capable of being "Restored". They will pay top money for one that is... and they will simply pass on anything that isn't. The person that will buy the car without it's original engine, is the person that simply wants a nice 240-Z to drive, to take to local club meetings/gatherings. The person that loves the 240-Z's but has no desire to ever "Restore" one... Or the person that wants a nice car to modify... These people will usually not be willing to pay anything close to $9,500.00 for a project car or a daily driver. Actually this car is too nice for them... unless they can steal it. #3......Now same car, only with the original engine not installed but available... Good running L28, 5spd. and R200 presently installed ...$5,500.00 to $6,500.00. $2000.00 deduction for taking the risk that the original L24 won't need to be rebuilt along with the work to reinstall it. The other difference is... you can sell #1 fairly quickly, you can sell #3 for slightly less money and it will take more time to sell. #2 will take the longest time to sell.... unless you lower the price. Now lets say that with "YOUR" car, you didn't keep it a factory color, you have a dash cover, the carpet is shot, the seats need to be redone... but it has a pretty paint job (which doesn't match the paint under the hood) and it runs well. Let's also say that it has a bit of bondo where the rust used to be, including the floorboards!!.. it needs a few mechanical details taken care of... and the chassis has about 190K miles on it.... it really won't matter a lot if you have the original engine or not. Just what I see in the market... Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http;//ZHome.com

Carl S. Wrote: >Does ANYONE have a "build sheet" for a Z Car? I have never seen , >nor heard of anyone who did. It is my belief that they simply do not exist. >Just because Chebby or Ford provided them doesn't mean that Nissan did. Hi Carl / everyone: I'd phrase it; "Chevy, Ford and others provide build sheets because their assembly line workers need to know what "factory options" should be installed on the car they are building. At the Dealerships, the New Car Sales Managers ordered cars from the factory, equipped certain ways for their inventory (depending upon what sold best in their locations) and they Special Ordered cars at their customers directions. Because the DATSUN 240-Z's for the North American Market had no factory options, there was no need for a "build sheet" for each individual car. The 240-Z's were most likely built following a daily or weekly Production Order. The Production Orders would specify the number of cars, the color of the cars (and therefore the color of the interiors installed), how many cars got standard transmissions and later how many got A/T's. The Production Orders would allow the assembly lines to be supplied with the needed parts... (so many white interiors, so many black interiors - so much white paint, so much red paint, so much gold paint etc. etc.). FWIW, Carl B.

gnosez wrote: >As an off-shoot for those wondering how a Nissan restored 240Z would >fair in a judged car show where ZCCA rules apply, an inquiry has gone >out to the individuals responsible for determining the rules for ZCCA's >"stock" class to see what they say about "resto-mod" or whatever you >want to call these 240s. I imagine it will take a few weeks to get a ruling >from this group of people but I will post it as soon as I hear. Hi Gnosez /everyone: A "Stock" 240-Z, A Modified 240-Z and a Vintage Z are three entirely different categories. I seriously doubt anyone that knew anything about the Marque would put any of them in the same category for a seriously Judged Competition. Secondly, the ZCCA depends to a large extent on the financial sponsorship of Nissan Motors. They would not be foolish enough to put Vintage Z's in the common classes of "Stock" nor "Modified" cars. The Vintage Z Program Cars are an Automotive Historic Milestone themselves and therefore will always be of more interest to the public and the serious collectors. Five years from now, there will most likely be 1000 Very High Quality Modified 240-Z's around, a 100 Pure Stock 240-Z's and 1 Vintage Z. Maybe the numbers are 4000, 400 and 40... Whatever the absolute number.. the ratio's well be about that.. Enthusiasts are always drawn to examples of the Marque that offer something more interesting in terms of their history. Cars owned by famous people, famous competition cars, factory specials etc. are simply "SHOWN"... they usually don't even compete in the normal Show Car Categories. FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Jerry / everyone: I'm not sure what happened to the Values on the NADA Web Site... However, looking back over the years, the NADA CPI Book has changed their "Definition of Categories" at least more than once. In 1989 their reported "HIGH" values were NOT for 100 Point Show Cars... In 1998 their reported "Excellent" values would seem to indicate that they are for 100 Point Show Cars. There Web Site... seems to return to their earlier definitions of categories.. ie "High" values are NOT for 100 Point Show Cars... Also notice their remarks related to data collection and "projecting values" in 1998... which wasn't there in 1989. Below are the remarks and definitions as published 1998 and 1998 (taken from books I kept). NADA Cars of Particular Interest (CPI) Value Guide: 1989 to 1991 Editors Remarks: The sources of data are auctions, dealer sales reports, market letters, club newsletters, CPI make and model surveys by questionnaires and other sources regarded as reliable. The market data is recorded and processed with the aid of computers employing editing processes which are standard in the industry. Definition of Categories: CPI does not assign condition categories to the column headings because values generally move in small increments and there are seldom well defined points which indicate condition. In a general sense, the LOW value represents an intact and functioning automobile which can be restored at reasonable cost. The AVERAGE value in indicative of a clean, front-line ready automobile. The HIGH value is representative of a car which requires nothing. It may be a show car, but not a 100 Point car. There are some cars in CPI which are rarely, if ever, driven, but most cars are assumed to be driven. = = = = = = = = = 1998 Editors Remarks: The sources of data are auctions, dealer sales reports, market letters, club newsletters, CPI make and model surveys by questionnaires and other sources regarded as reliable. The market data above is analyzed by CPI editorial staff and values are projected for the next edition. Definition of Categories: FAIR: Presentable condition. Runs and Drives and will pass a safety inspection. May be driven on a daily basis. Generally in need of a cosmetic restoration, but not a ""basket case". There are many cars on the road that fall below CPI Fair category, and well be priced accordingly. These are commonly referred to as "beaters", and are usually not worth restoring, as the restoration costs will usually all most certainly exceed the value of the finished vehicle. GOOD: Very nice condition. In fact most casual observers would describe the vehicle as "excellent". Good Cars show very little wear and are driven sparingly. Many are used as weekend drivers. Many older restorations fall into this category. EXCELLENT: Nearly perfect condition. The vehicle has usually been professionally restored to the current highest standards, but a few exceptionally well cared for original cars may qualify. All components are original or are an exact replacement. Most excellent cars are not driven more than a few miles per year, if at all. There are vehicles, usually due to an interesting history or special circumstance, which will sell for more than CPI's "excellent" figure, but these are extremely rare and would require extensive documentation. == = = = = = = = = Current Remarks on the Web Page: Definitions Of Categories: Low Retail Value This vehicle would be in mechanically functional condition, needing only minor reconditioning. The exterior paint, trim, and interior would show normal wear, needing only minor reconditioning. May also be a deteriorated restoration or a very poor amateur restoration. Most usable "as-is". Note: This value does not represent a "parts car". Average Retail Value This vehicle would be in good condition overall. It could be an older restoration or a well-maintained original vehicle. Completely operable. The exterior paint, trim, and mechanics are presentable and serviceable inside and out. A "20-footer". High Retail Value This vehicle would be in excellent condition overall. It could be a completely restored or an extremely well maintained original vehicle showing very minimal wear. The exterior paint, trim, and mechanics are not in need of reconditioning. The interior would be in excellent condition. Note: This value does not represent a "100 Point" or "# 1" vehicle *. * "100 Point" or "# 1" vehicle is not driven. It would generally be in a museum or transported in an enclosed trailer to concourse judging and car shows. This type of car would be stored in a climate-regulated facility. ========= End Quote = = = = = = BTW - Jan/Feb/March, 1998 CPI VALUES 240-Z For 1970 240Z: Fair: $2100.00 Good: $3750.00 Excellent: $7500.00 For 71-73 240Z: Fair $1900.00 Good: $3400.00 Excellent: $6800.00 For What It's Worth, given their Web Site Definitions of "High Retail".... there are some cars sold in that condition for $14K.... most are closer to $16K.. Given the 100 Point definition... $18K to $24K would be closer today IMHO. Super rare examples are even higher.. Carl

Hi Guys: If you look at the Vintage Air Web Site, you will see that they specialize in supplying the Street Rod and Custom Car markets (huge here in the US) They do build standard systems for commonly used Street Rod bodies ... They also offer a broad range of custom designed evaporators/heaters from which one can select the size/shape needed for custom applications. I'd say they go far beyond offering just a universal product, although one could nonetheless call it that. Their SuperCooler III hooks directly to the three existing outlets in the Dash.. I just unplugged the existing ducting from the OEM unit and stuck it back on the SuperCooler's three outlets. The Supercooler also has two outlets for the defroster vents.. I used the OEM holes for the heater hoses as well. I used the same mounting points for the SuperCooler, as were used for the OEM heater and aftermarket A/C kit. I did have to make a couple of strap hangers out of simple flat stock. You can get the SuperCooler with all electronic controls.. Of course when you remove the OEM system, the levers and cables that control it are also removed. (this also leaves more room for your radio/stereo) The weakness of the system is that it is a recirculate only system. Unlike the OEM systems in most cars today, you have no fresh air intake. Likewise you have to seal off the fresh air intake of the OEM Vent system... up under the dash. (the original aftermarket kits were also "recirculate only") I will say that given the number of small cars on the market today, all with great OEM systems installed in very limited space ... if one had the time to search, I'm sure that a typical Honda Sedan or Toyota Sedan would yield an evaporator/heater combination that could easily be retrofit into a 240-Z. Once you get into it, you see that it's really not a big job to do the installation of the components yourself. While the Vintage Air SuperCooler IIi puts out about twice the air flow of the original aftermarket systems, and it does cool the car here in Florida on 100+ F degree days... It still doesn't hold a candle to the A/C systems in my old 88 Chevy Pick-up. One of the main reasons being that the Factory systems are designed to introduce fresh air, and are therefore designed with far more total cooling capacity. Half the battle however is preventing the loss of cold air, while preventing as much heat absorption into the cabin as possible to begin with. Heavy window tinting, good body seals and floorboard insulation all have to be as good as possible. If you park the 240-Z out in the sun all day, due to the large glass area the interior becomes a huge heat sink and any system will have a hard time overcoming that heat load. If I were doing it again.. I might redesign the center console so cold air outlets could be supplied at the rear of the front seats. Just to get the heat out of the rear deck area quicker. FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Doug /everyone : In 1970, in the SCCA's C-Production Class, "aerodynamic devices" were not allowed to be added to the production cars. (this was a Production Class after-all). Peter Brock devised an air "spoiler" for the radiator combined with a brake cooling scoop" for the BRE 240-Z's that were being raced by BRE Racing. He told the SCCA's tech. inspectors that for the brake cooling ducts to work they had to scoop cool air in from the front of the car. No sir, that's not an "aerodynamic device", it is simply an air spoiler and scoop for cooling air for the radiator and front brakes. (allowed at the time under SCCA's rules). This was born the BRE Front Spook. (spoiler + scoop). Of course the fact that the Spook all but cancels the 140 lbs. of lift generated by the Z's body design at 70 mph, by adding 105 lbs of downforce was simply .... uh... a side benefit... ;-). The rear spoiler was a factory production part and thus allowed under SCCA's rules at the time. Although not "standard equipment" for the North American models, it was standard equipment on the Euro. Spec. Models (as was the 5spd which was also used in SCCA C-Production). The rear spoiler adds 75 lbs of downforce to the rear wheels and thus cancels the 20 lbs of lift at 70 mph on the stock car, and 35 lbs of lift at the rear with a front Spook installed.(adding downforce to the front of the car, pushes the rear up.. thus 35lbs. of lift at the rear with the front Spook installed). FWIW Carl Any 240Z driven on the highway really should have a Spook!

Hi Andrew /everyone: The Vintage Air unit actually sits higher under the dash than the old kits did. When I installed mine a couple years ago - Vintage Air didn't have the fully electronic controls they do now. So I simply make a replacement finisher panel for the center of the dash - with larger air outlets and no levers from the OEM system. If you remind me a few days from now - I'll try to get you some pictures.. It certainly doesn't look "stock"... but you might be able to retain the stock look with the new controls (you could put them in the glove box for example). What one really needs - for an A/C system that REALLY WORKS.. is to pipe cold air to the rear hatch area. With the present systems it is very hard to get good circulation of the air behind the seats... and that is where a lot of the HOT air is. If you park your car out in the sun... it's very difficult to get it cooled back down in less than half hour.. (where most modern OEM systems will cool a hot car down in minutes). E-mail me a reminder in a few days.. cbeck@becksystems.com FWIW, Carl

Hi Gee: Everyone has different expectations ... but the A/C in the 260Z works in just an OK manor here. It certainly isn't nearly a capable as any modern factory system. As I understand it, the Courtesy system is basically the same as the original add-on kits, with the exception of using a more modern rotary style compressor and being R-134a ready. Some people have told me they are satisfied with it... I guess it all depends on your local needs/expectations. FWIW, Carl

Hi Gee: I live in Florida, USA. It gets hot and humid here. I've been driving Datsun 240-Z's now for the past 35 years. As I got older, the desire for really good A/C got stronger and stronger. The aftermarket A/C kits designed in the early 70's and sold though the DATSUN Dealers was about the worst A/C I've ever had in a car. In my opinion it was more a "Sales Tool" than anything else. The Datsun Dealers simply wanted to be able to say "Yes", when ask if the 240-Z could be equipped with Air Conditioning. The after-market kit really did a very poor job of cooling the car, as compared to any standard A/C system on GM, Ford or Chrysler automobiles of the same period. Putting one of the old after-market A/C kits in the 240-Z is a waste of time and money as far as I am concerned. As someone pointed out earlier, the evaporator in that system is placed ahead of the OEM heater/Vent system. So the OEM fan has to suck air through the evaporator, then blow it through to the OEM heater/vent system Given that the OEM fan can't move enough air to begin with, and the old ducting leaks air everywhere - an inadequate system is farther degenerated. Cooling a 240-Z is a major job to begin with. The cars as designed, have very little insulation and leak air like a sieve. On top of that, the hatch back design creates a huge greenhouse, within which the air heats to super high temperatures. The "Factory A/C" systems that came in our late 260Z's and 280Z's was a vast improvement over the after-mark kits for the 240-Z's. But they will not fit in a 240-Z unless you change the entire dash. The dash in the our 260/280Z's was actually an inch or two deeper, so the Factory A/C evaporator would fit behind it. (it won't fit behind the 240-Z dash) There is only one solution as far as I am concerned. Take the entire OEM heater/vent system out and throw it away. Then go to" Vintage Air" and buy one of their SuperCoolers. This approach however, will not leave your car's dash looking pure stock. (you have to eliminate the OEM heater/vent control levers). http://vintageair.com/ The Vintage Air SuperCooler has both the heater core and the A/C Evaporator in a single compact box. Then air is blown through the system (so if it leaks, it leaks cold air out via the OEM duct work. The Vintage Air Super Cooler is also available with all electronic controls. You can use the 260/280/280ZX A/C Compressor mounting bracket to mount a newer style rotary compressor from those models. With the Vntage Air system you would also want to upgrade your alternator... the Vintage Air Fan draws massive amounts of current.. but it moves massive amounts of air also. If you are planning on using R-134a...(and you should).. then you want to make sure that every component in the system you set up is designed specifically for that gas. (don't let people tell you it doesn't matter). The molecular size of R-134a is smaller than the old R-12. So you have to have a condenser and evaporator with tubes of a smaller diameter. That is so that the molecules of the R-134a stay in direct contact with the metal of the tubes, and thus conduct the heat to the outside and the cold to the inside of the car. Compression fittings that used to retain R-12, will leak R-134a. For a R-134a system you have to use "0-ring" type fittings. As I recall, when it was all said and done.. I think I spent something close to $1,200.00 on all the parts (new everything). I used the OEM 280Z/280ZX compressor (Hitachi). It is possible to mount a far less expensive compressor if you can find or have made the necessary mounting brackets. I am happy to report that I finally have an A/C system in my 240-Z that will actually cool the car down on a hot day!! FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Jerry // everyone: In your opening remarks to this thread, you said: "Now I know there are enthusiasts and there are purists, and their perspectives will be different on this subject. I would like to change all our perspectives on this subject, even if ever so slightly. In the context that that we usually hear the term "Purists"; as in "the Purists"... It seems to be a reference to a fanatically motivated, although small group, of individuals who insist on forcing their gospel on the Classic Car Community they happen to be in. They don't hesitate preaching fire and brimstone to anyone publicly, if the unwashed dare to modify a sacred Classic. Like all fanatics, the Purists really enjoy getting in your face and under your skin, while at the same time failing completely to comprehend the true meaning of the Gospels Of Restoration. Having properly identified and defined them above, let's set that group aside for the minute, for they are "False Purists". The "True Purist" is really a wonderful combination of subject knowledge, artistic ability, perseverance and perfectionism. The True Purist is our most honest historian, working tirelessly on uncovering the true origins of our marque.... ie. "as it left the factory". The True Purist can be found grouped within one or several categories of automotive enthusiasts. He might actually be a "restorer of classic cars" or a "Collector of Classic Cars". The True Purist might simply be one who first performs exhaustive research and then writes about the marque. In many cases the True Purist may be a combination of all these or none. One doesn't have to "own" a 100 Point Concours Example, nor even to "build" one. The True Purist may simply be a person who has only a driving thirst for knowledge related to the subject of our affections. One who appreciates possessing ever deeper and finer, especially if little known, facts about the how the cars were built in the first place. The fact is, the True Purist and the Enthusiasts are one and the same. The True Purists will appreciate your Classic, no matter where it falls on the continuum from 100 Point Concours Original to Beautifully Modified. The True Purists will always appreciate "Cinderella" and disdain a "Frankenstein Monster". What makes a True Purists different from the average enthusiast? The True Purists will know in fine detail, the difference between the two. Preservation is the first step to restoration. With kind regards to the True Purists among you. Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

Chris wrote: >...snipped....... "This number may have been the number of cars Nissan actually bought." Hi Chris (everyone): Having been in direct communications with with the buyer for the Vintage Z Program, while he was buying... I can tell you with certainty that he was finding it all but impossible to buy more than around 45 cars, for the $3,500.00 budgeted. I did send him leads as they came in and I did try to get him to buy HLS30 000240 for the "charity" car ... Nissan didn't want to spend the $8,500.00 that the owner wanted for that car. I'd guess that the number of 150 was based on indicated demand. The initial price that Nissan put on the cars was around $23,995.00. At that price point there was a pretty quick and strong interest from buyers. FWIW Carl

Hi Chris / everyone: I have updated the Vintage Z Register... There is a hyper-link to pictures of each car on the Register now. There is a list of the Original Z-Car Stores also hyper-linked The Vintage Z Register Is Now linked on the Z Car Home Page http://ZHome.com The Direct URL Is: http://zhome.com/IZCC/ZRegisters/Vintage/VintageZ.htm We are now looking for input of Vintage Z's not on the Register... if you know of one, e-mail me the information at: beck@becksystems.com I'll also be Posting a note to the "big list", to see if we can reach more Vintage Z Owners. FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Este: I'm with Carl S on this one... I've never found anything as good a Kroil. The downside is you have to order it - and wait for it to come. At least no one around here carries it in stock. www.kanolabs.com They make several variations, for specific uses.. I'd try to aerosol AEROKROIL (most likely later you'll be ordering it in bulk). They also put out a useful newsletter.. sign up for that, lots of good tips there as well. I usually look in the Parts Manuals first - to see how things come apart. All most all the views are Exploded Views that show every nut and bolt. Mike used to sell the Parts Manuals on CD-ROM, I don't know if he still does or not. If not Courtesy Nissan sell them. www.courtesyparts.com FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Chris (everyone): Just wanted to point out... as you mentioned earlier.. at least some of the Vintage Z's did not get their original matching number engines back. Note on the Register at least one of them got an L28. (now that's an upgrade!!). Also .. are those the VIN's with Automatic Transmissions that you have as well? Could be A/T equipped cars were less expensive to buy, when Nissan was buying them... or it could be that in general terms the 240Z's with A/T were driven and cared for more carefully. FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com beck@becksystems.com

Hello Chris (everyone): Per an earlier discussion related to collecting the VIN's of the Vintage Z's. I've set up a Vintage Z Register on the Z Car Home Page... I have listed the VIN's I've collected so far, if anyone knows of others not listed there... please send as much information as you can. Or if you have additional information about the cars listed please send that as well. With "usual" Registers, it is the owners that register their cars. As we are just trying to get this started, and gather as many of the VIN's as possible, we will start by "reporting" Vintage Z's we have seen either in person or on the net. So far, I only know two of the owners... the rest are VIN's from cars listed on ebay with pictures of their dash plaques or other documentation. In each case I've listed the source of the information. If it's useful, at a later time - I may link the VINs to the ebay listings so people can see the descriptions that the owners/sellers provided. If anyone has kept a copy of the ebay page source.. to retain that information about a car you have recorded.. send it along with the other information and we'll add it to the database. The direct URL Is: http://Zhome.com/IZCC/ZRegisters/VintageZ.htm At least this way we can all see what we have collected to this point. FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com beck@becksystems.com

Hi Chris: Today at 7:13AM you wrote: >.."Thanks for the "Mad Mike" letter. Would you please highlight the passages that >refer to a discussion about buying up old Zs, refurbishing them, and selling them back >to the public again? I just can't find it. >Sounds like he had a good time though. So let me get this straight. He "threatened >to make house calls" and that constitutes representation?" Truth is stranger than fiction... I'd say that when the opportunity came about...Mike went to Nissan HQ and represented the ZCCA in the discussions with Mr. Hanawa. Although not planed far in advance, although not as formally structured as Mr. K's quote would indicate... I'd say yes.. what Mad Mike did on that day constitutes representation (at least of the people that elected him Executive Director of the ZCCA). The Mad Mike involvement was first brought up - because you quoted Mr. K saying "a representative from the American clubs was sent to Tokyo to plead with Nissan to revive the Z"... At that point there was nothing said about the Vintage Z Program... other than highlighting the events that took place prior to 97, and which lead up to the Programs Birth... Mr. K's full statement ties the "representation" directly to the events that lead up to the Vintage Z Program - does it not? My point was - related to Mr. K's statement and your questions about that statement... 1. Mike wasn't actually "sent" there as his trip report reflects... 2. who he represented.. when the chance arose ie. ZCCA and its members and 3. Who he met with when he was there.. (the man who would the following year become President of Nissan Motors Ltd. Japan). Chris wrote again today: >"Yes I AM 25% sure Mike had something to do with it." I have to admit that I'm very confused by that statement at this time. What/which ""it" you are referring to? There is no question that Mike and his visit to Mr. K in Japan in 95... is the person and the event that Mr. K is talking about in that quote. Yes/No.. or as I ask before, is there someone else that says differently? If you are referring to "it" being the Vintage Z Project... I have no idea what all, if anything, Mad Mike had to do directly with the Vintage Z Project. Other than, like all of us at the time, indirectly just trying to support the concept and the program while it was evolving at Nissan... Chris wrote: >"And finally...Carl, if I am stepping on toes, just tell me and I'll sit down and shut up. >Is Pete going to write a book, or was that just more talk? It has been six years." Well as you can see from his farewell letter.. he seems to have been planning on writing a book then; and from the letter he wrote me the other day.. which I read to you.. he seems to be in the process of writing his book now. I told him that you were putting together an article about the Vintage Z's and ask him if he'd be willing to share some information with us, I have not received his reply yet. I don't see your efforts as stepping on anyone's toes. If anything articles related to the subject, should just stimulate interest and help future sales of his book... yes/no? Other than discussions like this one... where else do we see anything being published that would lead to more interest? >Otherwise, I am not into writing adversarial posts claiming my story is right >and your story is wrong. Does "my story" mean Chris and "your story" mean Carl? Or is that a general statement? I don't feel anything has been "adversarial".... we have been back and forth on a couple of points... like the Mad Mike thing... but I wonder at times if I have made my points clear enough; because when you reiterate them in your own words... it leaves me with the impression that there is still great confusion there... Your statement today, >"please highlight the passages that refer to a discussion about buying up >old Zs, refurbishing them, and selling them back to the public again? >I just can't find it. leaves me with the impression that there is still confusion between background information, which Mr. K tied to the Vintage Z Program, with his statement (which you quoted).. with the expectation that it is meant to be proof of the conception point of the Vintage Z Project.... Just wanted to make sure that you understood - and that everyone following along understood - no one ever said that the representative talking to Mr. Hanawa, suggested anything other than saving the Z for America and Nissan Motors. That started the ball rolling or at least accelerated it a bit after Atlanta. Buying up cars came a couple of years later...so I am surprised that you would be looking for it in Mikes report, or that you think I said it would be there... nonetheless, the Vintage Z might not have happened at all, if the groundwork hadn't been done years before hand. I think we both agree that the story leading up to the concept of the Vintage Z's is as important to understanding their significants, as the story of how they were repurchased, reconditioned and resold... FWIW Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

halz wrote: >I've tried to keep up with the dialogue in this thread. It seems to me that >the "Factory Restored Zs" should more accurately be termed "Nissan Motor >Corporation USA - supported restoration program". Hi halz: That might be more accurate.. and I'd say that if that's what you want to call them that, I'm sure we'll all understand what cars you are talking about. You might shorten that to "Nissan Vintage Z Program Cars", or shorter still "Nissan Vintage Z's"... Wait a minute... no, on second thought, if we call them "Nissan Vintage Z's" or "Nissan Vintage Z Program Cars"... that might be misleading. Someone would think that Nissan Motors owns them. "Nissan Motor Corporation USA - supported restoration program" might be misleading too. In most places Nissan seems to have called them "reconditioned".... they weren't really restored (meaning to make as original again). >I'm not sure if Nissan actually does manufacture vehicles in a factory in the >USA. Now you can be sure. Nissan has several factories that produce cars and trucks here. They just built a multi Billion Dollar assembly facility for their full size trucks and SUV's here as well. As I recall the build the Altma's here, and some production was exported to Japan. >- they certainly didn't make the Z-series there That's for sure... of course "they" ("they" being your reference to Nissan Motors Ltd.) didn't make them in Japan either. Nissan Motors Ltd. Japan, didn't actually build the car in the first place. Nissan Motors Ltd. did the design, the engineering, the distribution, sales and marketing... but they did not produce the car. The Z's were produced by a subcontractor. Shin Nikkoku Kogyo Co., Ltd was started in 1949 to build rail road cars AIR. It formed an alliance with Nissan Motors Ltd. in 1951, it became a publicly traded corporation in 1961. The company name was changed to Nissan Shatai Koki Co., Ltd in 1962. It began production of the Z Car in Oct. 1969. The company name was changed again in 1971 to Nissan Shatai Co., Ltd. It is a publicly held corporation, not a wholly owned subsidiary of Nissan Motors Ltd. (as Nissan Motors USA is). FWIW, Carl

halz wrote: ...snipped.. >Despite the documented visits to Japan by US Z-car club members, >I see no evidence that Nissan in Japan supported the restoration program >in any way. Their contribution may have perhaps been a benevolent smile >at the efforts of their US distribution partners... Hi halz (everyone): "....a benevolent smile at the efforts of their US distribution partners" No offense meant halz, but I have to admit that is one of the funniest things I've read lately. It made me laugh out loud... from all my conversations with Nissan USA employees, the word "benevolent" would never have entered my mind, as it relates to the absolute control of Nissan Motors USA by the home offices. What little independence Nissan USA had, left the country along with Mr. K in 1977. For "evidence... I think we read somewhere that Nissan Motors Ltd. Japan approved the budget for the project originally and re-tooled for production of some of the parts needed. I believe that the list of "Restoration Parts" issued by Nissan was the result... some of them were however reproduced here in the US AIR. BTW - Nissan Motors Ltd. Japan hasn't had "a distribution partner" here in the US since they bought out their last distributors around 1965. kind regards, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

Esteban wrote: >there is a guy here in town that has about 20-30 70-73 Z's in his >back yard. he offered to get me a rust free shell for 600.00 so I >may just take him up on it. Hi Esteban: Send me that guy's name and contact info...!! I'd like to talk to him!! Anyone with 20-30 240Z's in his back yard is my kind of guy. Carl beck@becksystems.com

Chris Wrote: >Carl brought up that he had heard eighteen different body shops >were involved and I am not surprised. Hi Chris: Just to be more correct:)... I said I had a letter from the Nissan Manager of the Z Store Program, in which he stated that 18 body shops and 3 restoration business had completed 40 cars as of the date of the letter.... Text copied below FYI - and when you come up I'll gladly provide a copy of the original, along with the US Postal Date Stamp and Pete's finger prints. Note 1 that contrary to earlier reports... the fourth restoration shop did not pan out. Also note that Nissan clearly states that the parts and cars bought after the close of program... are not Nissan products... Note 2 -- also that Pete states the last remaining cars that were to be shipped to the Z Stores would be finished and shipped shortly... thus more than 40.. and the real total according to other Nissan sources was 42. Note 3 -- Pete is no longer with Nissan, and his phone and e-mail address are no longer vaild. (it was 1998 after all) Keep The Spirit Alive... Carl = = = Nissan Motor Corp., U.S.A. 30 October 1998 TO OUR Z-CLUB MEMBERS: As you well know, Nissan Motor Corporation USA created the Z-Store as part of a unique program to keep the spirit of the Z car alive after retiring the 300ZX. As of the 3 1'' of October, 1998, the official program will be discontinued. The restoration of Vintage Zs involved more than 18 different body shops and three restoration businesses, and the quality restoration process was backed by Nissan Motor Corporation U.S.A. Through the program, some 40 cars have been restored, with one donated for a charity auction organized by Rick Cole. Others have been sold to Z enthusiasts across the U.S., as well as buyers from around the world. I strongly believe the program satisfied a niche demand, and generated positive publicity for Nissan. Additionally, our efforts to bring new life to these wonderful cars has kept the "Z"spirit alive and just as importantly, helped bridge the "gap" between the discontinuation of the 300ZX and the development of a new generation sports car, now possibly a new Z. I hope the cars we were able to deliver to our participating Z-Stores helped generate floor traffic, customer interest and profits from the cars' sales. I also know that parts sales for Nissan, and obviously from the many Z-related aftermarket companies increased based on the recognition of owners of the value of 2402 ownership, as many people be,oan restoring or improving their personal vehicles. While Nissan p]ans no official announcement about the discontinuation of the Z-Store, our Public Relations Department has prepared the following statement: "With the rich heritage the Z car has generated over the years, Nissan wanted to maintain a high level of interest in the Z after the discontinuation of the 300ZX. The Z restoration program heiped us to do that, and it satisfied a special demand for these cars. We're now looking fonvard to what we are hoping will be a new Z. We showed a concept car this summer which was aimed at recapturing the spirit of the original Z, and we'll be unveiling a version of this concept at the January Detroit auto show which we hope will be a further definition of a true, pure sports car." Nissan will now focus its attention on the development of the Concept Z, which may very well open a new chapter ofthe company's continuing interest in performance cars. In the meantime, all of us at Nissan take pride in what we have accomplished with the Z-Store and in the cars we have restored. I think it is a!so safe to say that those people fortunate enough to have purchased one of our restored Z's have a very rare vehicle indeed. The warranties originally set for those cars remain in place, and owners will continue to be served by Nissan¥s Claims Cenrer. The remaining cars are being completed by Datsun Alley of Signal Hill, CA, and wiil be delivered to our participating dealers across the country within the next 10 days to two weeks. Datsun Alley will be continuing the restoration process on its own and will be offering completely restored 240Zs to customers. These will not be Nissan-authorized cars nor will they come with a 12,000-mile/l 2-month warranty. Datsun Alley, however, will stand behind its work, and assist any buyers ofthese cars with any warranty-related problems. Marc Jones of Datsun Alley can be reached at 562-988-0009. Let me just conclude this letter by saying it was a privilege to represent Nissan through the Z-Store, and I have greatly appreciated your interest and support ofthis program. On a personal note, I have been asked by Robert Bentley Publishers, a company noted for its automotive heritage books, to write a book on the Z, including a section on the Z-Store and the Z's legions of fans. If you have anything interesting that you would like to pass on to me for inclusion, please e-mail me at <pete.evanow@nissan-usa.com>, or send it to my attention at P.O. Box 3052, Orange, CA 92857. I look fonvard to seeing many of you at the next National Z Car Convention, and thank you for helping to keep the Z alive and for sharing in the company's great heritage. Cordially, Pete Evanow Manager, Z-Store - - -- - - 30 - - -

Hi Chris (everyone): Re: the Representative Sent To Japan To Plead For The Z... This is what really happened.... Read Mad Mikes Trip Report... it's good reading. 100% certain....? FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com

Esteban ask: ....snipped... I see lots of surface rust in the underbody pics but Im no expert and I want to know if im really screwed! also this is my first restoration project and I knew the car would need it I just want to know if it is as bad as it seems. ....snipped... Hi Esteban: For five hundred bucks, I'd have bought that car in instant. If the rear bumper is as good as the front one looks... then the wheels/tires, early SU's and bumpers are worth the $500.00 you paid for the car. Looking at the condition of the metal in the front suspension, as well as the place the frame rail is eaten up - my guess would be that the car sat in salt water at some point. (aka a flood car). I'd afraid I'd have to agree that the car is a lot cause for anyone other than a highly experienced auto body man, with lots of metal working skills. I wouldn't start a restoration project, nor even a refresh project with a unibody in that bad a condition. I would use that car as a parts car only. As someone already mentioned, its the rust you can't see.. but given the rust damage you can see, I'd bet the rockers are ready to rust through, the doglegs are ready to rust though etc. I'd also bet that when you pull the front fenders off, you'll find damage to the firewall as well. Living in Texas, I would shop Texas, NM and AZ until I found a solid rust free unibody on a 240-Z. Even if you had to pay $4,500.00 for it... it would still cost you far less in the long run, than trying to stop the rust you have, and fix the damage already done to the parts car. Even then, you run the risk that all other panels in the car will rust though shortly after you've repaired and repainted the car. If this is one of your first "restoration/refresh" projects... it is very important that you be able to make good progress, without getting totally discouraged. That means it is even more important to find a rust free, very solid body to start with. After you have restored five or ten of these cars, you will be ready to tackle major uni-body work.. but I would not recommend you start out on one. The bottom line is... my best advice would be to hold the parts car and keep looking for a solid car for your "project". You are living in an area where it's quite possible to find solid 240-Z's if you spend the time looking. good luck, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FLUSA http://ZHome.com

Chris wrote earlier: >......... >Case in point....Most people will tell you that there were two or three >shops involved in the Program. There were four. Nissan documentation >includes a production figure for two of the shops at a certain date. >......... Hi Chris: Well Pete Evanow, Manager, Z-Store - told us on 30 Oct. 98, that the program was ending 31 Oct. 98. He stated that 18 body shops and 3 Restoration Business had done 40 cars by that point. He also said that Datsun Ally would finish the remaining cars and get them out to the Dealers within a few weeks. Looks like one of the planned restoration shops.... didn't materialize??? I wonder if that should have said 8 body shops... 18 sounds a bit high for 40 cars... but then given only a year to do them all.. maybe not. FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://Zhome.com

Chris Wrote: >.... >Mike Taylor is one of four people with their hand in the air at the moment. Hi Chris: Sorry, I don't understand what you mean. You mean that three people other than Mike, claim to be the person in question? >And I haven't talked to half the people I really need to contact. >You should see the information I'm finding. Right now, Mike Taylor has >a 25% chance of being correct in my mind. Chris.. do you think, or are you being told that some other representative (other than Mike) was sent to Japan by the American Z Clubs? That would be interesting indeed. Or are you saying that my credibility is only 25% - or are you just trying to get me to dig more of this stuff out? OK - I Quote from Mad Mike's trip report.. Sept. 14th through 20th 1995, as published in the Z Club of Texas newsletter, of Oct. 1995. I think I still have the copy he sent to the Clubs somewhere as well. .... {Monday though Thursday snipped..cjb}... ....... ......."Friday morning, complete with suite, jumped into a cab to meet with Kenji and Mr. K at Nissan headquarters for our prearranged conference with whomever. (ed. the meeting was arranged the Tuesday before..cjb)...I arrived early and was shown to a carefully appointed conference room. I became aware of someone else entering the serenity of the peaceful atmosphere when I heard.. "I am Hanawa". After introducing myself in Japanese {had a few days to practice}, we exchanged business cards. His card reads: Mr. Yoshikazu Hanawa, Executive Vice President. Namba-San's call resulted in a big surprise for me." Mr. K and Kenji joined us shorty and we discussed various aspects of the "Z" for roughly an hour. In short, Hanawa-San made some notes about our Z Car Club movement, was impressed with the pictures and discussion of the Z American Relay and stated that Nissan wanted to keep the Z as their flagship product if economically viable. We also discussed the problems of meeting EPA requirements, the changing value of the Yen and sports cars in general. Mr. K also stressed and I reinforced from my research within the ZCCA, the sentiment that Nissan should produce a simpler, more economical Z to attract more customers and increase market share. Hanawa-San left us by graciously stating he would pass along our comments and concerns to those within Nissan currently studying the "Z's" future. Regardless of what the future holds for our Z, we at least have had our "day in court"... thanks to Mr. K and Naba-San. ..... End Quote............ "Naba-san" mentioned above is Yasuhara Nanba, class winner of the 1957 Australian Rally, former President and then current Counselor to NISMO. Mr. Nanba made the arrangements for the meeting at HQ the following friday. >I said in the begining post that this was a sensitive subject. Yea!!! I haven't seen anything "sensitive" so far... conflicted/confused for sure, but when you are dealing with people's perspectives of past events that's to be expected ... yes/no? I'll scan a few things I've found lately.. and send them to you. FWIW, Carl Carl Beck Clearwater,FL USA http://ZHome.com