Captain Obvious

Epoch Times is on the chart... Look way down in the lower right hand corner. On the political left-to-right scale it's in the "Hyper-Partisan Right" section. And on the reliability scale, it's in the "Contains Misleading Info" section. Interesting to note that they weren't that bad off a couple years ago. In previous versions of the chart, they were closer to the middle and considered more reliable. But then there's now. Now they are actually rated worse than OAN and Newsmax and one small notch above Infowars and the National Enquirer. I gotta give National Enquirer a shout-out though... they're close to the middle. It's all unreliable garbage, but at least it's not hyper-partisan garbage! The original chart came from here>> https://www.adfontesmedia.com/

Thanks for the input guys. I considered both shortening the needle valve and adding weight to the floats. At this point, it seems like I'm going to have to do something like that even though (in theory) I should not need to. I keep coming back to changes in gasoline formulation and density. Namerow, I completely understand what you're talking about with the wacky geometry. That's one of the things that has me wanting to keep the floats "about neutral" at valve shut-off. Because if you bend the tab down so far... too far... you can actually run the risk of the geometry changing direction and opening the valve back up again at extreme float angles. the valve pin kinda "slips off the downhill side" of the tab - if that makes any sense. I'm not sure you can achieve that extreme of an angle with the short ear lids, but with the 72 fronts you can. I need a way to keep the floats more neutral. Next chance I get, I think I'm going to mess around with adding some weight to see if I can fix this.

I think I understand the sentiment though... You're thinking that if there were something layered on the top of the tab, the float would sit more level, right? It's a little counter-intuitive, but that wouldn't work. That layer would just close the valve sooner thereby lowering the level. Yes, the float would sit with less tilt, but the level would drop accordingly.

Hmmm... Thanks for the input, but I'm not really sure what you mean by that. Are you suggesting that I add material to the top side of the tab? If so, that would only make matters worse. The problem is that the tab is already too high. I need it lower, not higher.

So here's some pics of a trial run with the 72 rear (short ear) lid. First attempt. Float tab looks like this: That float tab resulted in a fuel level and float tilt like this: Bending the tab a couple times bought me to here: Which resulted in a fuel level and float tilt like this: I'm not quite hitting the lid yet, but I'm very close. And I'm still pretty far away from my target level. I don't think I've got the compliance left to bring it up to target without hitting the lid.

I didn't Archimedes the new and old floats to actually measure the respective volumes, but yes... I took a bunch of mechanical measurements to verify that the new aftermarket floats are the very close in size and shape as the old OEM floats. And I also weighed them with a (non-NIST) scale and they all came out to 10g. And in addition to all that, I did check the wet float level with the old OEM float as well and it was about the same. So the bottom line with all that is it appears that it's not the float that changed. That brings me to either the fuel changed, or my aftermarket float valves are more sensitive and close sooner than the originals.

The filter has an anti-drainback valve that keeps the filter full even when the engine is shut off. No differential pressure even when first starting. And when you change the oil and put on an empty filter? There's no oil in the filter, so you can't bypass dirty oil. There's no oil to bypass,,, clean or dirty.

If I get a chance, I'll put the rear lid (short ear) together and take a couple pics. Both lids have complications. The short ear lid has the float pivot point closer to the underside of the lid. That means there is less float tilt available before the float hits the lid. The long ear lid allows more float tilt before the float hits the lid, but there's another problem...Since the whole system was designed originally with short ears, the shape of the float was designed to never bump into the inside of the bowl. But if you go extreme tilting of the float (further than it was ever designed to tilt), it WILL contact the inside of the bowl. The bottom line is... Too much tilt is a bad thing. And as an anecdotal piece of info... If you look at the pics in the old FSM's you can see where they "expect" the fuel level to be on the float when there is enough pressure to close the valve and the relative tilt on the float. Note that the float is shown as pretty much no tilt. Float is "neutral" and from a design standpoint, I think that makes a lot of sense:

Haha! I think that Stranglehold is one of the best pieces of music ever created. But that doesn't qualify him to be a spokesman for a medical (sounding) organization to "take the truth directly to the people". In fact, for me, it does the opposite. It makes me question everything: America’s Frontline Doctors takes the truth directly to the people, with a cross-country road tour headlined by AFLDS.org founder Dr. Gold delivering “The Religion of Public Health”, a profound diagnosis of 2020’s viral propaganda, and also featuring special guests Ted Nugent and additional AFLDS physicians and attorneys at select venues. If I want the truth, it doesn't come from organizations like that. It comes from here:

Awesome! That looks like a fantastic event!!

Thanks for the generous offer, my friend! If I can't figure this out I'll take you up on that. I've thought about running rear tops, but they're giving me the same problem. Level is higher, but not high enough. Arrrrrgh!!

But since none of us can be an expert on everything, we all need other people to be our experts for us. And if we want to stay informed, we need news because we can't be everywhere at the same time looking with our own two eyes. The problem is in the choice of experts and the choice of news.* Me? I'm conservative. I believe that the cream eventually rises to the top. And of course it takes a little longer, but by the time it gets there, it's been vetted and investigated because the stakes are higher for the top. That's why I recommended the old school names who have a long standing reputation and have enough money to make them worth going after in court if they report false stuff. In other words... They have skin in the game. And because of that, the stuff they report has been vetted pretty thoroughly. If they screw up big, their reputation is at stake and their pockets are deep enough to make them worth going after. If a bunch of the old school big name news organizations say that "so-and'so did such and such" then I give it some credence. Until then, not so much. The smaller newer on-line organizations with no money? They pretty much say whatever they want and they're making money off the sensationalism. Sensationalism sells. It sells clicks, and it sells opinions. But it hasn't been vetted. And they can pass it all off as "opinion" anyway, so there's no accountability. Cream rises to the top. There's a reason. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ *If your expert is some guy on the internet posting stuff on social media, then I think it's time for an expert upgrade. If a quick google search of your expert turns up hits of them being banned from posting because of mis-information, then I think it's time for an expert upgrade. If your medical expert has Ted Nugent as a spokesman at traveling shows, it's time for an upgrade. If your choice for news is a "left-wing media outlet built around a Facebook Group and corresponding website. Established in 2012, it publishes false information, hyperpartisan content, and clickbait" it's time for a news upgrade. If your news is closely affiliated with the Falun Gong religious movement and "contains a mix of straight news, religious belief, conspiracy-peddling, Sinophobia, science denialism, legitimate grievance, and political expediency", then it's upgrade time.

Nope. 72 Long valve. Right on spec. And the rear set-up does about the same thing. For the pics, I just grabbed the long ear lid 50/50 chance. On edit - But that's a really good question. Because what started this whole thing in the beginning was a mixmash of incorrect parts including a short valve on the long ear lid. I was hoping that with all new parts in the right positions, all the problems would magically go away.

I bought fresh gas (just in case the two week old stuff had started to evaporate, thereby driving up the specific gravity) and then I took some pics of the situation. Here's my basic quick thrown together test rig. The carb lid is sitting on top of a small glass. The masking tape is just to provide a little stability to the lid so it doesn't slip off the glass: Here's and aftermarket float right out of the package. Tab looks like this: And here's what the fuel level looks like with that float. This is for the front 72 (long ear) carb, so the target is 22 mm down from the bottom of the lid. I'm way low: So I bend the float tab to adjust the level. And after a couple tries, it looks like this: The level is close, but still a little low. Big problem, however, is that I've run out of compliance. You can see in this pic that the float is so tilted that it's hitting the underside of the lid. A put a little extra pressure on the fuel inlet and it pushed past the valve and kept going: The other problem with the float being this tilted is that you can actually end up on the downhill slops side of the valve tang. So I also tried an old OEM used float and got similar results. About that only thing I can come up with is the gas is higher gravity than it was forty years ago. Fresh premium grade from the local station? Surely it can't be just me. Can it? I've done countless floats in the past. Am I just losing my mojo?

Yup. Absolutely considered it. That and/or taking material off the bottom of a floaty float. But I guess my first order of business was to try to find out if it's just me. If it's just me, maybe I need to go back to float school. I think today I'm going to try to measure the density of an old OEM float alongside a new aftermarket version. I've already weighed them (and they're the same to the resolution of my scale), but I haven't measured their volumes.

I agree 100% and I've long wanted to replace the cut-pile in my 77 with some new loop. The cut pile screams "plush" 70's to me. Makes me want to do some disco. Even though it's older, I think the loop pile looks more modern.

Hmmm. Never thought about it that way, but I guess that would be true. If you push 60 psi oil into the filter and let the other side hang open into a bucket, the bypass valve will absolutely open because the differential would be so high. So if you put a brand new high pressure oil pump on your tired worn out motor... The question is... "How much oil volume passes through the filter (per unit of time), and how much pressure does it take to achieve that?" Or turning the question around... "How much oil volume can you push through while keeping the bypass valve closed?" Fram's PH8A says the bypass valve opens at 12psi differential. How much oil could you push through the filter at 11 psi differential? Enough for even a worn out motor? Anyone know what the spec is on the pressed-into-the-block bypass valve is? For all I know, it's lower than the ones built into the filters? I took a quick look at at couple FSMs and didn't find any spec. They talked about it, but no pressure spec.

That's why I posted that media bias chart earlier. There needs to be news. But get your news from the top tier news organizations. Not facebook or some guy posting memes on the internet.

Well maybe it's extra floaty aftermarket floats or something. I'll post a pic of what I got going on when I get a chance. The problem I'm having is that the level is too low. So I bend the tab down some. Level comes up some, but not enough. And then when I keep bending the tab down, I eventually run into the situation where the float mechanically bumps into something (underside of the lid or inside of the bowl chamber) before the valve closes, and it overflows. Basically, I can't bend the tab down far enough to bring the level up to spec before I run out of compliance. It's like the float is too floaty. I got tired of messing with it before and went ahead and bough all new parts... New aftermarket valves. New aftermarket floats. I was hoping it would all magically come together with the new parts, but no joy. I've got some antique OEM (not aftermarket) floats here... Maybe I'll see how they float.

Arrgh... Stupid floats!! These things are working me over! I'm finding it difficult to get the fuel level high enough. Is it conceivable to think that maybe today's gasoline has a higher specific gravity than the gas they were using forty years ago? Heavier gas makes the floats more buoyant and that drops the fuel level? Maybe some sort of EPA thing to slow down evaporation? Or am I just losing my touch?

Well first of all, let me be clear that I'm no lubrication expert, but now that I've got a couple more minutes, let me try to explain a little bit. First of all, I think the premise that both the static and dynamic pressure are involved is incorrect. Since the bypass valve is around just the filter media, the static pressure should have no effect at all. The only pressure that should matter is the differential pressure across the filter media. Any static pressure should come out immediately in the math. Second, I would claim that the differential pressure across the filter media (assuming that media is clean) is not high enough to open the bypass valve. You might say "But what about a cold engine just started then... The cold thick oil would be harder to push through the filter media thereby creating a higher differential pressure across that media". And to that, I would say "Yes, but don't forget that cold thick oil would also be harder to push through all the bearing clearances and oil passageways, which would increase the pressure on the clean (outlet) side of the filter, thereby keeping the differential about the same." As evidence, I would cite the oil pressure gauge. It's on the outlet clean of the oil filter. It's higher when the engine is cold and the oil is thick. And the higher the outlet side, the lower the differential pressure across the media. And on the inlet side... the pressure into the filter is limited at the top end by the pressure relief valve inside the oil pump. That's my non-expert take.

I disagree with both your premise(s) and your conclusion(s). How far from the original thread do we want to go? Haha!

Cool, and thanks for the confirmation. One question though. When you said the fuel pump comes off in start... What you really meant was that the fuel pump comes ON in start, right?

The Black Box? So that's what they call that one. Been many moons, but faded brain cells support that moniker. Didn't know that about the layoff-rehire culture. Probably due to the contract style of relationship with their customers. Not very disappointed that I missed out on that.

LOL. Yeah, what science fiction was that one? Resident Evil? Did I get the right one? Big corporation builds virus in an attempt to create a super-soldier. Doesn't work right and escapes from the lab and animates dead tissue. That's the one, right?