HS30-H

Dear Mr Moonpup, Είστε το πίσω τέλος ενός αλόγου! And here's a little souvenir of the real "#13" for you. You have my permission to use it as your screensaver. Enjoy! Έχετε μια συμπαθητική ημέρα! Alan T.

Go on then, care less. Go on then. Oh, hang on - you're just saying theoretically, right? OK, I get it.... But seriously, are you sure you're commenting on the right thread ( or on the right car? )? I think the general concensus here so far has been that the car is not all that attractive a proposition except for its ( relatively ) low body serial number. I don't think anyone's hyping it up as the best thing since sliced bread, or telling us that it's a copper-bottomed negative-equity beating 'investment'. Well, not too many people turned them into race cars in 1969 ( unless you know better? ), but the cars that have been race cars for most of their lives are now some of the most sought-after of S30-series Z cars. Rather than 'scolding' the owners / builders, I think most of us would pat them on the back and congratulate them. I for one would always be drawn to the scruffy old race car rather than the 'Concours' stock car standing next to it. There's an interesting period race car coming up for auction here in England next month, and the auction house have put an estimate of £40,000 to £60,000 ( that's roughly $60,000 to $90,000 US at the moment ) and some are saying that it's actually pretty 'cheap' if it goes for that kind of money. It'll be interesting to see what it gets knocked down for. You can't buy the kind of history that this car has all that often.... The slightly strange thing at the moment is that these cars are fetching quite a lot less than some of their contemporaries. 26th-Z commented a few days ago that they are hugely cheaper than most of the 'Big' Healeys, and cars that are considered mechanically and/or cosmetically 'inferior' are worth more. I guess it might have something to do with the perception that tens of thousands of them survive. Is the S30-series Z a victim of its own commercial success? As for 'customising' or modifying the cars, in my experience the same kind of rivet-counting and pecking orders exist in those circles as they do in 'stock' or 'collector' car circles. If your car doesn't have the 'right' parts on it, if it wasn't engineered or built well, or - horror of horrors - it doesn't even look good, then it's going to be considered lower down in the pecking order - and therefore worth less - than one that has and does. Same thing as all big boy's toys, in fact. Sorry to disappoint you, but I don't think you're going to give anyone here heart failure if you were to buy "#400 Z" ( ) and "throw" a turbo or LSX engine in there. In fact, you might find that some so-called 'collectors' would be quite happy to see another possible competitor in their game of Low-VIN Bingo elimininated....... Alan T.

So basically everybody, but me in particular. Noted. I'd say a lot of it has to do with the "#400 Z" ( ha ha! I see what you did there...! ). If you can't accept that a discussion about the spec and details of a particular car ( in this case, a lot was posted about its OEM paint colour for example ) will naturally bring up related discussions, then I really wonder what it is you expect to see when you participate in a forum? Some of our best collective 'work' comes through such sidetracking. Show me a thread without any subject drift and digression, and I'll show you a pretty dry - and possibly rather short - thread. "Another fight"? "Grow up"? You accuse somebody of "bitching like a little girl" ( and "quitcherbitchen" - which is a new one on me ) and then you ask them to "grow up". Bizarre. And you write this over your rather hefty signature line 'advertising' too. The irony appears to be lost on you. Seems to me that none of this is really about what is written or the way it is written, but more about who is writing it. If that wasn't the case, then 'zcar70' should be complaining about a few posts in this thread other than just mine..... For the record, I think threads like this are the very essence of this forum. The forum takes a specific early car ( it's for sale, so everybody and his dog can pick faults in it without any thought for the owner or his feelings ) and then takes it apart at the same time as telling us what it's 'really' worth. Speculations are made, and somebody pops up with some bad data which is quickly revealed to be mistaken. Somebody takes offence at something a little too easily, and a storm brews in a teacup. It'll soon blow over. Meanwhile, "#400Z" ( tee hee ) is still for sale. Really, what's not to like? "Quitcherbitchen" indeed. Alan T.

To whom ( and / or what ) is this post directed?

No, we can't even let it put its pyjamas on. That's not the paint shop, so it doesn't say anything about batches of cars during the painting process.... *Please do not see this as an attack on you, your family, the USA and its dependants and/or anybody else. Your rights are not affected* Cordially, yr hmble svnt in EU, etc etc Alan T.

Once again, you are accusing me of being "nasty", "sarcastic" and "aggressive" ( where? how? ) whilst you ignore the circumstances and backstory. Believe me, I'm intending to be adequately polite and restrained. There are no members of this forum who are beyond reproach. No holy cows. What's this "behind the safety of a computer screen" stuff? I'll stand by what I say and how I say it in front of ANYBODY on this forum face-to-face, you included. That's because I believe I'm being reasonable, sufficiently respectful and as accurate I can be in what I write. If you think I'm just some kind of keyboard warrior then that's your choice, but I would have hoped you'd seen enough of me on this forum by now to understand that, with me, what you see is pretty much what you get. And thanks for reminding me that I'm "...in Europe...". Alan T.

No, sorry. I don't accept that accusation. If you think I'm being "condescending", "rude" and "nasty" then I direct you to the emoticon at the end of my last post. Although I guess you won't see it if you don't want to see it, it was put there for a reason. It's meant to indicate a reasonably friendly tone. I've pointed much of this stuff out to Rick several times before, and the message still doesn't seem to be getting through. I can't discount the possibility that some of what he does is being done on purpose, but I'm still giving him the benefit of the doubt. His first post on this forum seemed - to me anyway - to be aimed at ruffling feathers and sticking a flag in some territory. Perhaps you might want to go back and have a look to remind yourself of that time? I wasn't the only one who thought we were being sent up. But up to and including now, I believe I'm being sufficiently polite and respectful. And unlike you, I haven't told anybody to "go away".... This forum is probably one of the best on the web ( in the English language, anyway ) for getting down to the nitty-gritty about these old Japanese cars. It's a shame to see it - after all we've been through - seeming to believe that the story of the "American" market cars is the only story. How can we possibly discuss what turned up in north America, or what was going on in the factory that made these cars, without taking into account everything that was being made there? To talk about batches of HLS30s being painted, whilst ignoring the fact that nearly twice as many Japanese market S30-prefixed and PS30-prefixed cars were going through the very same paint shop at the same time seems positively careless! I suggest that if you've got any further objection to my posts that you simply use the 'IGNORE' function. If you want to take it up personally with me, then send me a PM. As for Rick, I'm rather inclined to believe that he's cool enough to take a little pointed criticism on the chin without even flinching. He might even give a little back, which will be well taken. That's the way we eventually get somewhere with all this.... Alan T.

As in so many of your posts, you seem to completely forget ( or just disregard? ) the fact that variants of S30-series Z other than HLS30s destined for the north American market were being made in Nissan Shatai's Hiratsuka plant ( 'Datsun' never made anything, because it was just a badge ) in 1969. Surely it isn't that difficult for you to imagine Japanese market cars coming through the production system at the same time as your "American" cars? In the 1969 production year over 950 Japanese market cars came down the lines at the Hiratsuka plant. If any of us had been there, I think we couldn't have failed to notice them... I'm sure that Nissan would indeed have made an effort to get a nice variety of colours onto that "first boat out", but they would have been making equal efforts for the cars that didn't need to go on any boat. As colours were painted in batches, it stands to reason that they would not have needed to be divided by market or variant, just as long as the colour was appropriate. In the cases of 905 Red and 918 Orange, they were both offered as colours available from the beginning of production on Japanese home market models - so the colours did exist on early production S30-series Zs. In fact, 918 Orange was seen on the Nissan stand at the 1969 Tokyo Auto Show. There doesn't seem to be any reason to suggest that they couldn't have been used on 'HLS30'-prefixed cars right from the beginning of production. I know I've mentioned this to you before ( so I'm probably wasting my time ) but, in discussions of matters historical, your use of "#13", "#210" and "#215" as shorthand is all but meaningless. Those numbers mean almost nothing without their 'Katashiki' prefixes. Perhaps you could add some of the above to your "records"? Alan T.

A bit late ( sorry, didn't see it when you originally posted it ) but this looks like the Hiragana ( simplified Kanji ) symbol 'Chi'. And - in common with some of the other examples - it looks a little bit unnaturally written. Kind of like if it were written by somebody who was stretching his arm up under a dash.... It kind of ties in with previous examples possibly reading as 'Chikara'. Could this Hiragana 'Chi' signify the same thing as the Kanji 'Chikara', but simply abbreviated, and written by a different person and/or at a different time...? If we had enough examples, we might even start to see a pattern emerging.

Yes, it reads as "San-Ju Yon". Literally 'Three Ten four', meaning 'Thirty Four' in English. No idea what it relates to I'm afraid. Like all of these graffitoes, they seem to have meant something only to the guys building up the dashes and the cars......

Carl, I think you have got this N42 and F54 block internals thing the wrong way round.... The N42 block casting ( the earlier of the two ) had more 'meat' between the bores than the F54 block casting that followed it. The F54 block casting had 'siamesed' cooling passages between the bores - ie less 'meat' - which actually makes it less stiff than the N42 casting. When going for maximum bore on an L28 block, the N42 has often been chosen because the extra material in the block casting leaves greater wall thickness, which helps to keep bores round in use. In contrast, the F54 block has often been chosen because people misunderstand what 'siamesed cooling passages' means. They think that they are "stronger", when in fact they simply have better cooling properties. The F54 has less internal structure than the N42. And amongst tuners in Japan, the earliest N42 block castings were always reputed to have 'better' metallurgy than the later F54s. Alan T.

So you could see "3000" in the paint, but not in the metal underneath it? Bizarre. I think it would need a pretty good going over with a DA to completely obliterate it, and it's hard to imagine why it would need so much DA work on firewall sheetmetal once bare metal had been revealed..... Personally speaking, if I saw a car that had had so much work done in that area that the chassis number was illegible, then I'd tend to think the worst. I've seen 2-seater bodies with 2+2 chassis numbers, and late RS30 bodies running on HS30 identities ( there's one such 'shell on eBay UK at the moment ) so they are out there. It only takes two cars to tango. If it was me, I'd have made sure that the number was legible before buying it, and/or before painting it. No really, they were engraved. The slightly haphazard look that the numbers and letters sometimes show is due to the nature of the pantograph-style machine that was used. Nissan Shatai staff confirmed the fact to Kats when he talked to them. It's in the archives here.

Why do you need a picture!? It's on the firewall sheetmetal, just above the master cylinders. RHD and LHD are mirror-images of eachother.....

On the S30/S31 Z' date=' it is [i']always* on the driver's side of the firewall. *Unless it has been removed for some reason.....

An 'RLS30' plate is not going to be any use for an 'RS30' though..... vpulsar, If your car really hasn't got the firewall-engraved chassis number 'stamp' anymore, then there has to be a reason why. Whatever reason it is, it won't be good...... If it's simply covered up with paint, then you should strip the paint back to 'frame' it. If it really isn't there any more, then I bet it isn't the car that your V5C says it is. Can 'O' Worms.....

Possibly referring to the 'Sports Option' wooden gearknob that was described in-period as the 'Rally' gearknob? They were used on the 510, S30, PA10 and BS110 works rally cars, amongst others. Just a thinner and slightly taller wooden knob, with no logo or shift pattern on it. NISMO made a limited-edition reissue for their 15th Anniversary ( part number 32865-A7610-1 ) which sometimes come up on Yahoo Japan auctions. I've got one on my GP Maroon 240ZG, and one on the 432-R replica project car too. Some people don't like them, as they complain that they 'hurt' the palm of their hand. Here's a pic of an original on a works 240Z rally car:

It's certainly nothing to do with the quality of the car. It's a good one. Better if you think of it being for 'personal reasons' rather than anything sinister...... I've driven the car, and can vouch for it. It used to belong to well-known 60s~70s Japanese racing driver Tadashi SAKAI ( I believe he bought it new ), and it was he who had the Weber DCOEs fitted in place of the OEM Mikunis. It's not 100% stock, but it has some nicely sympathetic 'period' feel modifications. Alan T.

I can't think of a better source than the private records of the company that actually made them. It was quite a coup for Kats to get hold of them, considering the situation. We are very lucky that he shared them with us. With all due respect, I have to say that your methodology in attempting to get a handle on all this appears to be fatally flawed. Those door jamb tag 'build' dates are demonstrably unreliable ( especially so for the first year of production ) and the 'VIN' ( 'Shatai Bango' ) numbers are not much better. They are better used as rough guides than as unimpeachable truth, and the door jamb tags in particular could easily have been stamped with whatever date was convenient or expedient for Nissan. Satisfying the main reason they were on there in the first place is the first place to point the finger at..... You misunderstand what the figures relate to. Nissan Shatai's figure of 688 cars for December 1969 related to 'Domestic' S30-series Z models ( 'S30' prefixed 'Fairlady Z' and 'Fairlady Z-L' models, and 'PS30' prefixed 'Fairlady Z432' and 'fairlady Z432-R' models ). 'Domestic' might mean the US to YOU, but to the Japanese it means......... Japan. Moreover, the corresponding figure of 97 cars for 'Export' markets doesn't automatically mean that they were all 'HLS30' prefixed ( even if the majority would have been ) and even then not all 'HLS30' prefixed chassis numbers were on North American market cars, or were all sent to North America in the first place. While we are at it, I have to say that your shorthand habit of describing individual cars as "#418", "#502" and "#13" can be confusing, potentially annoying, and simply sows the seeds of future mistakes - not to mention tripping up the SEARCH function. These body serial numbers are just about meaningless without their prefixes. It might mean a lot of extra typing, but I think it's better for all of us in the long run. Alan T.

You don't have to believe it, because it isn't true. Nissan Shatai's records show that 785 S30-series Z cars were built during the calendar month of December 1969. 688 of them were 'Domestic' models, and 97 of them were 'Export' models. Alan T.

When I was living in Japan ( twenty-something years ago now ) one of my drinking buddies occasionally used to bring his father along for the evening. His father had worked at Nissan Shatai's Hiratsuka plant during the period we are talking about here, and had recently retired. He said he used to work extraordinarily long shifts, and grumbled that they were often asked to volunteer to work night shifts on a daytime rate. He described Hiratsuka as being open "24/7", with the only shut downs being for the bigger national holidays and for essential maintenance in certain sections. Deliveries of components and supplies were coming in 24/7 too, and at one point he was involved in warehousing these during the night. I got the impression that it was a somewhat chaotic time, with workers being asked to go the extra mile for little or no extra pay. One of the big reasons we have so little data about Hiratsuka and the S30-series Z cars from this period is that Nissan Shatai got into a legal wrangle with the unions over pay and conditions. Documents that would have been useful to us as enthusiasts and amateur historians were destroyed or otherwise 'removed' from the reach of the plaintiffs. Fragments of the story are held in private hands, but there's a whole chunk of the story missing. Great pains were taken to keep information from getting out into the public domain. Ron, As far as I can see, you're the first person to mention the "worldwide build" in this conversation. I'm wondering if others are forgetting that models other than the 'HLS30'-prefixed ones were being made in the same plant, on the same 'lines', at the same time? And we are of course talking about thousands of cars, not 'just' hundreds. These need to be taken into account in any discussion about production volumes and capacity..... Don't forget that Nissan Shatai's Hiratsuka plant assembling the S30-series Z range was just one of Nissan's factories in Japan, and one of the smallest at that. The Hiratsuka plant was being extended and added-to through 1970, 71 & 73, so their capacity was increasing to catch up with demand. They did have computers in Nissan at the time, but of course they were nothing like what are in use today. Nissan were churning out huge numbers of other models in other plants, and had a parts supply infrastructure and chains of suppliers that could cope ( or be made to cope ) with this ramp-up of volume. The production volume of the S30-series Z range might look big if we look at it in on its own, but in the grand scheme of things it was manageable for Nissan, its suppliers, and for Japan. The production figures for some of these other models make the S30-series Z production figures look quite modest in comparison ( 1970-year production of the B110 Sunny alone was three times more than that of the S30-series Z models ). Nissan Shatai's S30-series Z production line workers and their union weren't all that happy with their remuneration though..... As mentioned above, a lot of data has been destroyed or 'removed', but our fellow member Kats did obtain some production data privately from ex-Nissan Shatai staff. Kats posted the monthly production totals for 1969 and 1970 years - broken down by 'Domestic' and 'Export' - on this forum, and we discussed them. If you look for them, you can find them using the site's search engine. Might not be all that much help to you if you are only interested in HLS30U models though...... Alan T.

I think Dino might have misunderstood that the 'no.68' race car is actually a standard production PS30 '432' that has been modified to resemble Nissan's first works PS30-SB '432R'-based race car ( destroyed in its very first race ). None of the other cars present in the article are 432Rs either. 'Just' ( as if there's any 'just' when it comes to 432s...! ) normal 432s..... T.A. Auto's 'no.68' car was featured in Vol.136 of Nostalgic Hero magazine ( Dec. 2009 ). A great issue for S30-series Z cars. Carl B's 'Baja' BRE car got a really nice 4 page feature too. Sad to see Tamura san being referred to as "the" designer in the Speedhunters article, when he was actually one member in a team effort. Kats brought Tamura san to our attention here last year: http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36319 Alan T.

Hi Mike, I'm wary of generalising about the Australian and NZ markets, as it seems like the situations and specs there were even more 'rubbery' than elsewhere. I know what I see in the R-Drive parts lists, but - as we know - there were always exceptions and anomalies. Maybe somebody from those territories might like to comment? As far as the UK market was concerned, I think the situation was that the dealers usually made what little choice was available from the concessionaires, and the customers simply chose the car they liked 'as is' from the showroom floor or asked for a particular colour to be sent from Japan ( which would have taken a long time ). As far as factory-fitted 'options' were concerned, I believe Datsun UK Concessionaires actively discouraged most of the dealers from dabbling in complicated orders. The family of one of my good friends here were one of the original UK Datsun dealers, and I'm told they were aware of certain options but had trouble getting exactly what they wanted. I believe the standard UK market spec cars were seen as being a good package for the period anyway. Standard spec included the 5-speed transmissions and 3.9:1 diff ratio, and they had the 'firm' springing, damping and ARBs. They came with the clock, radio, electric antenna, heated rear window and carpets, and the front and rear spoilers were also stock. This was seen as a pretty good specification in comparison to British or European models of the time. Many buyers would have wanted to change the wheels, but there was a big choice of aftermarket wheels available here anyway. This was something the buyers could do themselves, rather than pay the dealer to do..... So, generally speaking, little or no true 'Factory Options' for the UK market cars.... Alan T.

Discussions surrounding the definition of the term "Factory" - as it relates to 'our' cars - were, as far as I remember, quite important for classiczcars.com. I think we all learned something from it ( OK - maybe not everybody...... ) and the legacy of that runs far beyond any "F-word" or "Factory Police" jokes. The word may raise both smiles and hackles here, but I think it is important that we all appreciate just what it means in reference to the cars that we are discussing here. That's what it all comes down to. Depends what market you are talking about. For the Japanese market, true factory options were very far from being mythical. These are all Japanese cars we are talking about here, and they were sold in many parts of the world. Parts and specs were sometimes shared between different market models, and the existence of certain specs and options in one market model often affected the details of another market model, whether those 'options' were fitted or not. Ignore the big picture, and you probably won't understand what you have in front of you. Sweeping generalisations about these details are very likely to be wrong, so it's usually worth pointing out the specific market / model you are referring to when you come out with statements like this: See? Madame Guillotine has passed her judgement, and your head is now laying in a basket at her feet. Does anything need changing? We've discussed the topic of 'Options' ( and for most markets ) many times on classiczcars, and much interesting data can be found by using the SEARCH function of the site. Here are a couple of examples: First Japanese 'home' market options for S30-series Z models: http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14422 Japanese 'home' market options on introduction of HS30 models: http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14501 Alan T.

'S30-101781' would be correct for an 'S30-S' model 'Fairlady Z-L' ( 'ZDx' / Deluxe ) or an 'S30' model 'Fairlady Z' ( 'ZS' / Standard ) built very early in 1973 ( most likely January 1973 ). Body serial numbers for the Japanese market cars changed from five digit to six digit at the beginning of 1972, so the six digit serial on your car would be seem to be correct. It would have come from the factory with the L20A engine. Other specs will have depended on whether it was the Deluxe or Standard model, and what showroom options the original purchaser chose when he ordered the car new. A good look through the parts with the car, and the car itself, should give you some clues as to whether it was the base 'Fairlady Z' or the better-equipped 'Fairlady Z-L' when it was new. We've discussed these cars on the forum many times in the past, and the search function should reveal many threads with useful data. I wouldn't place too much hope in finding any information about the car on zhome.com if I were you. If you get stuck, give me a shout and I'll do my best to help. I've got a 1970-build Fairlady Z-L and a couple of other Japanese market Zs, and a fair bit of literature on them. I'm afraid it's hard to give an estimate on value without knowing the condition of the body, and without knowing what's missing...... Cheers, Alan T.

For the sake of completeness, here is what the chart says: Two rows reading from the left can be read as 'Stock' above, and 'Modified' below that. The column headings, left to right, can be read as 'D hole dia.', then 'L1 length', then 'L2 length', and finally 'Pedal Ratio'. The notes underneath point out that - roughly translated - "Accelerator and brake pedal settings should be set according to driver preference", and that "When pedal stroke is decreased, pedal effort increases". It also mentions a pedal pressure example of 30kg effort translating to a 0.1g decrease in speed for the above mods, and recommends 'Golden Cruiser HWB-II' brake fluid ( which is obviously the Unfair Advantage we are all missing ). Personally speaking, I'm not messing about with manual brakes on any of my cars - 'track oriented' or not. I'm sticking with the FIA-legal vented type MK63s and the small Master Vac, and 'stock' master cylinder sizes. All I'll mess about with is the friction material of the pads. I'm a fan of ENDLESS pads since I got a few sets for free....... Alan T.