HS30-H

.....Elbow Grease.:classic:

Hi Kats, That's very interesting. Thank you especially for showing Osawa san's report on the North American tests. I noted a couple of things from his report; *He refers to the "U team", and I presume this means the USA team or the team from Nissan Shatai that conducted the tests? *Does he write that the test ENDED on 2nd October 1969, or that it STARTED on that date? I can't make it out. He also seems to mention a period of three months for the test ( and 20,000 km? ) which does not add up - or am I misreading / misinterpreting it? *Does he state that they sent an improved CAR ( a whole car ) to Canada on 20th December, or just improved PARTS? Again, I could be misreading / misinterpreting it? *I notice that he does not actually write "240Z" anywhere on his report. However, at the beginning of the report summary he mentions the "main market" for the car ( reference to the USA / Canada market ) - so he must be talking about the HLS30U. Seeing as the USA / Canada test cars had NO emblems on them whatsoever ( as far as I can see ) do you think this means that even when Osawa san was writing his report, they still had not finalised / agreed the "240Z" nomenclature for the 'Export' version? Alan T.

Hi Ben, You know about the Australian-built Z on this year's Safari - so no need to tell you about that - but the other one was UK-built ( by Duncan Pearcey of "The Z Farm" ) and I don't think it had any Works parts on it. The drop-bumpers ( also known as "Monte Carlo" bumpers ) are indeed very rare. I don't know of a genuine one in current use on a Historic Rally privateer Z. Certainly the one on the UK-built Safari car was not a genuine Works or Option drop bumper. If I remember correctly, the car driven on the Historic Monte this year by Tony Fall and Mike Kempley actually belongs to Mike Kempley. I don't think it has any Works parts on it ( as far as I remember ) and the drop bumper is a home-made item. Tony Fall has his own - UK-built - Historic Rally 240Z ( another red one, but with the black bonnet ) but he didn't drive it on this year's Historic Monte. He drove Mike Kempley's car instead. As far as I remember, anyway. Alan T.

I talked to a few professional foundries a couple of years ago. A friend and I were thinking about getting some replica wheels cast in aluminium. We soon gave up on the idea. Casting wheels is not for the faint hearted or those with shallow pockets. Simply having a wheel to copy is not enough; a proper wooden three-piece pattern needed to be made ( with correct tolerances for shrinkage etc ) and each casting would cost a LOT. Then they would need to be machined etc.......... We figured that we would need to sell too many wheels at their high cost price to break even. My friend in Japan who made his own limited-edition replicas found that people were slow to pay for them, despite the fact that they were beautiful and accurate. Only a few Z people are willing to pay for something like this. I'm surprised that you did not ask about the price of the Japanese replicas. I would have thought it would be useful data for you? I'd probably sell one of my spares to somebody who needed to complete a set, or for an historically important car ( such as a Works rally car ). They are so rare now that it would be folly to let one go for any other reason. You don't even say where you are located. If you are located near to me then I might consider lending one to you for your research. What's the Fairlady Z replica project based on?

I was told - when I was living in Japan, and by a gent who used to work for Nissan at the time we are talking about - that the door jamb plates of the USA-market Export cars were not actually applied at the Factory. He said that he thought they were stamped and attached at Honmoku Wharf ( Nissan's export freight terminal in Yokohama ). That's one of the reasons I think they are not to be taken as 'gospel' truth; You can imagine that even if nobody was tempted to 'play' with figures ( conspiracy theory ) there would still be a good chance of them messing up numbers and not applying them 100% accurately ( ****-up theory ). Maybe even both......... I've had the feeling for a while now that we don't have the full facts about these door jamb tags. Reading the story about your particular car, I'd almost be tempted to believe that they could have even been stamped and attached to the car in the USA. But then what do I know?

That's good to hear, St.stephen. My offer of help still stands. If I can be of any use, please let me know. I'll try my best to help him. Cheers, Alan T.

Maybe they have a natural aversion to the Handbrake Lever ( sorry, E-Brake handle ). While you are looking at it, ask the cigar / cigarette lighter why its on the right side of the centreline on your LHD car. To compensate for enormously long American arms, or possibly a subliminal 'Quit Smoking' sign? Don't worry, I'm kidding too...........

Kats, Is the document you are referring to the 'Jidosha Kensa Sho'? I have copies of these for both of my Japanese-market cars ( on import to the UK the Jidosha Kensa Sho and Japanese 'De-Registration' documents have to be presented to our vehicle licensing authority, along with an authorised translation of them. Both of mine state clearly the Model Type ( in my case, one S30 and one HS30 ) and full 'Shatai Bango' ( full VIN number ). Is yours different, then? Alan T.

Hi Kats, I think that's pretty much what I am doing - and enjoying doing it too. I don't actually expect to get an accurate date and time for the 'birth' of each car, but its interesting and fun trying to get close to it. That's why I originally described this as a "Philosophical" discussion............... Alan T.

Hi Joseph, Sorry if I got the wrong end of the stick there. Mind you - if HS30-00004 was elsewhere before coming to Australia, I'd really like to know WHERE it was and WHAT it was doing there. It might be an important part of the jigsaw puzzle. I'm sure that Nissan were testing some HS30's just before official exports of them began. It would be very interesting if we could prove that one or more HS30's were being used in Japan for R+D purposes. Cheers, Alan T.

Hi Mike, No - just to clarify: I wrote "Do we follow the door jamb tags - where fitted - to the letter?" When I refer to door jamb tags, I am of course only referring to the one market that they were used in: USA / North America. What I'm trying to get at is that these USA / North American market cars are being used to compare with other market cars in questions of actual build date. My point is that the door jamb tags are not necessarily an ACCURATE dating reference. Cheers, Alan T.

somecreep, That's my pic you linked to. I have six of them. Replicas made in Aluminium are available in Japan ( I think there are a couple of sets left ) but they are enormously expensive. How much are you willing to pay? And why would you want just one? Alan T.

Its OK guys, When I'm talking about door jamb tags, I'm only talking about the USA / North American market cars. I understand that they were the only ones to have the door jamb tags with the 'date of manufacture', and that your Australian market cars had compliance plates added in the engine bay. Just to make it clear; Japanese-market and UK-market cars had no 'date of manufacture' tags, or any other way of reliably knowing when the car was actually made. Cheers, Alan T. Edit: Spelling mishtake..

Hold on there a minute Joseph, Just because this car was wearing a few parts that were common in the Japanese market doesn't automatically make it a Japanese market model. A grille is a 'bolt-on', and as for Fender Mirrors - well, some UK-market cars even made it over here with them on. Truth be told, the earliest of the HS30 prefix cars had a very rubbery spec that was somewhat being made up as it went along. In fact, its VERY unlikely that it was an OFFICIAL Japanese-market model "HS30", as Japan did not get the HS30 officially until late in 1971 ( with the debut of the L24-engined 'Fairlady 240Z' models ( Fairlady 240Z, Fairlady 240Z-L & Fairlady 240ZG ). Those cars had VIN number sequences that were shared with the "Export" model HS30's - so none of them were as low as 'HS30-00003' anyway. A number that low WOULD have been made very early in HS30 production ( just before HS30-00004 probably! :classic: ) but I don't think anyone call tell for sure on what EXACT date it was made. I think its dangerous to presume we KNOW what date such low numbers as HS30 #3 & #4 were actually made. Looking at L24 engine numbers and comparing them to those on other cars will not necessarily get us all that much closer to an exact build date for the HS30's. Certainly not to within certain weeks, anyway. Personally, I still don't discount the possibility that one or two ( or even more ) 'HS30' prefixed cars were amongst the very first cars produced during the latter part of 1969. They may not have been product that was intended for sale to the general public, but they very well may have actually existed. The spec on these cars was different to the others, and I get the feeling that Nissan might have been working hard on finalising the spec details, and researching the L24 engine / FS5C71-A trans / 3.9 R180 diff combination that was not seen on other models at that time. Mr C. - I'm very interested to see the firewall stamping on that car. If you ever get near it again, please try and get a good photo of it for me. I'd love to see that. The lowest HS30 number I've seen 'in the metal' was HS30-00013, and that was hanging on the wall of a friend's workshop! :classic: Cheers, Alan T.

Hi Carl, I'll trade you the variable cam timing of later ( very much later ) RB's for the wet cylinder liners and cross-bolted mains of the S20. If you ever get a look inside an S20, or ever need to gather up all the nuts, bolts, studs and shims that hold one together, you'll know what I mean when I say the S20 was more complex internally than the RB. :classic: You're getting your Nissan race car nomenclature mixed up ( or was it a 'plant' to test me? ). The stop-gap fitting of the American V8 was on the R381 ( not the R380-I ) and it was the R381-II that got the V12 'GRX' engine first. I believe the name that's on the tip of your tongue but you can't quite recall was........ Dean Moon. Please Carl, for once in your life, tell me that I am 'right'...... :cheeky:

Hi Carl, The Prince R380 used the "GR8" engine, which was related to the Prince 'G' series OHC engines in spirit if not actual DNA. The Nissan R380 and R380-II used a development of this engine, but with the Nissan name on the cam covers instead of Prince. The GR8 was a pure race engine, with two distributor drives on the ends of the camshafts. The Nissan S20 twin cam engine was a development of the GR8, but was different in a great number of respects. The distributor drive arrangement, oil pump arrangement, block mountings and take-offs were all quite different to the GR8. Essentially it was a completely new engine based on the ideas and experiences of the GR8. Nissan's advertising made much mileage of the link between the GR8 engine of the Prince and Nissan R380 series race cars, and the S20 engine of the first Skyline GT-R. When the Fairlady Z 432 and 432R debuted, Nissan's advertising described it as "A Fairlady Z with the engine of the Skyline GT-R". However, the S20 was quite a different engine to the GR8.......... The RB series came after a big gap. You can see the similarity to the S20 in many respects, but the RB is actually much simpler than the S20 internally. Once you start looking at the way the S20 is put together, you realise just how expensive it must have been to make and assemble each individual engine. Nissan have never really actively encouraged any thought of a DIRECT descendancy from the S20 for the RB series, although the family connection is there. Alan T.

The harder I try to think about this, the harder it is to recall any relevant names! Its just like a quiz. One more for now: NTN - Bearings and seals.

Hi Kats, Great thread! Some to add to your list off the top of my head: TOSHIBA - some lamps & bulbs EVER WING - Mirrors / lamps in some markets MITSUBISHI - Alternators in some markets / other electricals STANLEY - some lamps and bulbs ATSUGI - suspension components ( strut legs etc ) KEW - suspension mountings / engine mounts / some drivetrain pressings / 'moustache' bars etc. Alan T.

Here's a scan of the Nissan R-DRIVE parts book pic of YUASA batteries. I think these were from the "Pafecta" range of YUASA batteries:

Hi 26th-Z, Actually, I don't think I ever thought to mention this to you before: HS30-00026 - along with HS30-00024, HS30-00025 & HS30-00027 -was one of the first Nissan / Datsun "Works" 240Z rally cars. They debuted in their first official team rally on the 1970 RAC Rally here in the UK ( in November 1970 ). HS30-00026 was issued with the Japanese 'carnet' registration plate number "TKS 33 SA 696". The car no longer exists, although its 'identity' still does ( the VIN plate and stamped VIN number are privately held here in the UK )........................ Alan T. ps - here's a pic of TKS 33 SA 696 on the 1971 Welsh Rally:

Hi 26th-Z, Good example of what I meant by a 'philosophical' discussion. I don't necessarily agree about the car not being a car until the inspector slaps that 'OK' sticker on it. In my mind, and in my heart, I envision the car becoming a car somewhere further up the production line. I understand what you mean - as to all intents and purposes the car was not finished, or fit for sale to the general public until Nissan said it was, but even a faulty / rejected car, or one that accidentally got damaged on the production line was still a car with a positive identity. I suppose that I might actually be inferring that an 'identity' of a car ( through its stamped firewall VIN prefix and chassis number combination ) exists as soon as its punched into the metal. I might be influenced by experiences with old race cars, which can certainly be a can of worms, and an area where one always has to expect some skulduggery and intrigue! Actually, this part of the discussion about when an identity is taken on reminds me of some parts of the very sad abortion debates one reads about........... As mentioned elsewhere many times, NOT all markets - and therefore not all cars - had an officially-applied DATE OF MANUFACTURE stamp on them. Japanese-market cars certainly did not, and UK-market cars certainly did not. Australian cars had their door jamb tags applied in Australia ( as far as I am aware ) and this would lead me to suspect that the data applied to them would be easily 'tweaked' to fit in with any agenda the importer might have had ( import quota / tax / model years issues? ). I also believe that the door jamb tags of the USA-market cars were possibly applied somewhat arbitrarily, and not even at the Factory ( I was once told they were applied at Honmoku ). I certainly don't trust them, for the reasons I gave on my first post in this thread. Yes 26th-Z, there would have been an HS30-00026 ( probably went to Australia ) and a PS30-00026, and don't forget poor old S30-00026 too! However, none of these cars would have been "manufacture date" stamped in Japan. In the case of HS30-00026, if it went to Australia I believe it would have been fitted with its door-jamb tag in Australia, or at least just before it went to Australia, and NOT on the production line. Its only possible to get near to the actual production date on non-US cars by cross-referencing the manufacture date of COMPONENTS - which, as we can see, can be slightly confusing and not entirely scientific. Alan T.

Zedrally has very kindly started the ball rolling on a new thread that might be of interest to some of the posters on this thread: New thread is here:Z car philosophy thread Might be a bit too stodgy for some, though :classic: Alan T.

A couple of days ago, this thread was started: HS30 #160 for sale It fairly rapidly turned from a "For Sale" ad into a discussion about the earliest HS30 build dates. I wondered if anyone might be interested in pursuing this further without spoiling the original for sale ad? Thanks for starting a new thread Zedrally:classic: To be honest, we have had such a lot of concentrated discussion about this in the past ( see the Build Dates thread, which 2ManyZs linked to above ) that its possible most people will not be very motivated to give their thoughts on the subject. However, I think there are connected areas of this subject that we have not really covered...... Carchaeology is one thing ( and we love that ) but philosophy is quite another. I think many of us will have different opinions, but isn't it worth trying to get a discussion going about the following?: *When does a 'car' actually become a car? I'm thinking about the production line for the S30-series Z cars, and wondering at exactly WHAT point in the production process we can allocate a particular car its 'identity'. Is it when the full VIN number is stamped on a bodyshell? Is it when the car reaches a certain stage of completion on the line? Or is it when the car reaches the 'end' of the production line ( or after it passes its quality control check and gets its "OK" sticker? ). *When we talk about 'Pre-Production' cars, or the first cars that were put through on the Z production line, how do we decide on the identity - or lack of - for these particular cars? If they do not have full chassis / VIN number stamps, can we include them in 'Production' numbers or not? What if "HLS30-#1" or "S30-#1" never actually got stamped with any numbers? What if they DID, but were broken up / disassembled for research and development purposes at the Factory? Do they count in the production figures? What about cars ( like the two North American 'test' cars ) that had different details from what we might call 'final' production spec? Do we include them? What about crash test cars etc? *How are we identifying the actual build dates of certain cars? I'm thinking in particular of cars built right at the beginning, or right at the end of the month, or year. As far as I am aware, we can't identify the ACTUAL day of production for a particular car - so how are we able to allocate it a month of production, and therefore it follows in the case of January and December cars - an accurate year? Do we follow the door jamb tags - where fitted - to the letter? I don't think we should really as it seems clear that they were attached after production, but what else is there to go on? Do we look at componentry manufacture dates, come up with an average and then decide through probability? *Lastly, do ONLY production models - released by a company for sale to the General Public - count when it comes to deciding 'production' of a type of car? I'm thinking of ALL of the first generation S30-series Z types here. Where do we draw the line? Do we have to follow the stamped VIN / Chassis Identification number to the letter? What if there were gaps in the numbers? What about the grey area between full production cars and prototype / production test / production research / assembly test cars etc? You can see why I was calling this a 'philosophical' discussion. :classic: Alan T.

Er, thanks Mike! ( Alan T shields his eyes from the array of spotlights on Zedrally's car ) :classic:

It might be fun to start another thread on this issue of 1969 or 1970 build "HS30" models, so as not to spoil member 44014's sales effort on his car. Anybody want to participate? Lets have a show of hands....:classic: Note: Just before we get off on the wrong foot, it might be worth stating that the thread might very quickly become a philosophical discussion about what constitutes a manufacturing date, and when a 'car' actually becomes a car - instead of a stamped body number and a pile of components........ I suspect we might run into a bit of disagreement about the difference between an S30-series Z car and an HLS30 "240Z". Seems that some people out there are willing to believe that an HLS30 is not part of the S30-series Z car range.......... Another note: The fact that some RHD S30-series Z cars were built at the same time as the first LHD cars is impossible to dispute. In fact, RHD cars sometimes outnumbered LHD cars....... :classic: Alan T.