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Mat Big Hat

Unusual Kenmeri QLD

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Hold on, I think it was a little bit more complicated than that. This talk of "lines" is a little misleading, and I don't see what the number of "lines" had to do with the number of body serial number sequences ( ?? ).

Have you had anything to do with mass production?

I think not or you would realise that apart from idiotic companies like Ford UK AND Ford Australia back in the 50's (both set up by the same people), all mass production is similar in implementation.

A 'line' (or more fully a 'production line') is set up for each major variant. Just where the division is set depends on what you are building but in the case of cars it's fairly obvious.

A SWB 4 cylinder sedan is a significant variant to a LWB 6 cylinder hardtop and is equally a significant variant to a LWB 6 cylinder sedan.

So, a seperate 'line' is set up for each of the variants.

The result is just what your beaut little C10 sheet says. Each 'significant variant' has it's own serial number sequence.

Note that that same sheet does not say that there is a seperate serial number sequence for cars bearing a different suffix.

Modern production is moving away from this system because computerised management of the line, the component delivery, the robots assembling the unit is very tightly integrated.

Without that tight integration a production line having to slot a significantly different engine into each chassis (as only one example item of many) becomes logistical nightmare. A very dumb scenario.

The Japanese were NEVER dumb as their growth into one of the leading mass producing countries attests.

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That's all straight from the C110 series export model factory service manual! Have you only just noticed it?

Actually, I was aware of it somewhere back in about '74 as that was when I bought a copy of the manual (which I still have). But then I'm also not inclined towards snide sarcasm.

I figured it would be better to see if Nissan Australia would provide a different slant but it seems they are reading from the same page too.

But the reason we use the term 'VIN' is just for convenience sake ( so that everyone knows what we are talking about ).

A pity you couldn't use the correct terms (or their Anglicised versions) as the use of VIN actually implies there is more to the car ID and serial number than there really was.

The fact that the suffixes hold a lot of information on the model variant, and yet were never attached to the car, is unfortunately seldom acknowledged on forums like this.

It also tells us quite clearly that the FACTORY didn't consider the suffix to be of any great significance after the fact of having built the car.

even more reason to label me a "smartass"?

Since I had yet to get my first drivers licence when I was drooling over the S54 in his showroom, I wouldn't be too quick to point fingers at who I thought he was referring to.

Heaven only knows what kind of euphoric epiphany you will experience should you see the Japanese home market model variation page. Maybe you ought to sit down before looking at it?

Since I have had a copy since the 70's it's not fresh news.

Art C

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That we can agree on. But it is not news is it? The PGC10, KPGC10 and KPGC110 models are such a specialised and well documented subject that the body serial number sequences are common knowledge amongst enthusiasts. You are only 'confirming' a fact that you were effectively disagreeing with earlier in this thread.

I said 'virtually non-existant' and NOT that it was fact.

If there is no hard evidence available in the future that the PREFIX is in some way falsified or altered from the day when it was placed there by the factory

then whether you or anyone else like it or not, then the factory has LEGALLY identified the chassis as a KPGC110 which we all recognise and accept as the basis used to build the GT-R.

That will require at least X-ray examination of the firewall panel.

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That source would like some more info from you as his understanding of the KPC110 model is that it was listed (ie planned) but never actually built.

Hi AARC240,

This from "Spirit of Skyline" 1977 printing Kodansha Press

As the G18 motor was, as I understand it, a product and baby of the Prince Motor Company engineers, the P was a salutation to Prince?

The same basic vehilce introduced at the same time with the Nissan G16 engine is listed as a KC110HT.

First selling time date to the Japanese domestic market of Sept 1972 ? (47.9)

The last C10 series car listed in my books was the GC10-IV First selling time of March 1972.

I don't have a C110 brochure of any sort to hand but this chart from a C10 reprint brochure helped me sort a few little questions. I hadn't realised the info was there 'til HS30-H(G'day Alan!) prompted me to dig a bit further:stupid:

K = two door

G = 6 cylinder

C10= series

"TK" = GT-X

As all the line seem to feature (on the brochures at least!!) a "T" as a basic ending? makes me wonder what it was representing? It all gets a bit confusing when you consider "HT".... for HardTop ? Not everyhing appears uniform in the info I have:ermm: Are we dealing with the possible differences between NISSANs official engineering side and the "comfier/easier for the public" marketing side?...Gawd! and this is only the domestic side of thingsROFL

...More confused,? less confused? no idea but it's all good

Cheers chaps!

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This from "Spirit of Skyline" 1977 printing Kodansha Press

As the G18 motor was, as I understand it, a product and baby of the Prince Motor Company engineers, the P was a salutation to Prince?

The same basic vehilce introduced at the same time with the Nissan G16 engine is listed as a KC110HT.

From the engine manuals the G16 and G18 appear to be variants of the same base unit.

Interestingly, Nissan Australia apparently believes that the KC110 was never actually put into production.

when you consider "HT".... for HardTop ?

Not very likely since the K code indicates hardtop pretty consistently throughout Nissan cars.

Are we dealing with the possible differences between NISSANs official engineering side and the "comfier/easier for the public" marketing side?

I wouldn't think so.

To have a different identifier for the public and not get confusion with internal systems and documentation the most common practice is to tack a NAME on the car for the public and stick with the engineering nonenclature internally.

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Interestingly, Nissan Australia apparently believes that the KC110 was never actually put into production.

Correct! Think about it - what would a KC110 be?! A SWB 6-cylinder hardtop?

A KPC110 did exist though.

SWB "C110" could be ordered with G16 or G18 I understand, though G18 only arrived later (correct me if I'm wrong).

Whether the P indicated 'Prince' can't seem to be confirmed, however it certainly appears that way. G16/G18 for SWB cars or S20 for LWB.

I understand each different VIN (or ID, whatever) was sequential and independant, like other Nissan models. That includes :

GC110

KGC110

HGC110

KHGC110

HLGC110

KHLGC110

KPGC110

PC110

KPC110

And probably others. Please correct me if I'm wrong Alan. My books are still packed so can't reference anything. Might check them out later tonight.

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aarc240,

I see your bicycle has ten reverse gears as well as ten forward gears, and you are pedalling like mad. :knockedou

That source would like some more info from you as his understanding of the KPC110 model is that it was listed (ie planned) but never actually built.

Your "source" wants me to prove to him that the KPC110 model was built, then? I suggest he ( and you ) do your own research on that one - as it seems you have trouble believing anything that comes from me. Perhaps the info from g72s20 above might go some way to convincing him?

Correct me if I'm wrong:

katashiki : a specific recipe, detailing every variable from trim level to color to seat configuration.

in other words, what we call a 'build order' in Oz production

'Katashiki' doesn't translate to the equivalent of a 'build order'. It is a word made up of two Kanji characters ( reading 'Kata' and 'Shiki' ) that both mean almost the same thing. A dictionary definition of each character would give you 'model' or 'type' for the first Kanji and 'style' or 'formula' for the second. I think it is quite clear what the term refers to - and you can translate that to suit the automotive usage how you want. But you get the point don't you? These are Japanese cars ( and mainly Japanese market models too! ) that we are discussing here, and therefore I believe it is correct to use the factory's own terminology when referring to them. Splitting hairs about the modern meaning of the acronym 'VIN' is a waste of time, and I've already justified the reason why we use it on forums like these.

Have you had anything to do with mass production?

*sigh*

You missed the point I was making ( again ). You keep disappearing up avenues that are side issues to the main point here. You need to remind yourself that earlier on in this very thread you were convinced that all the different models shared the same body serial numbering sequence!

If we look at Nissan Japan's whole modus operandi with regard to model variation identification and body serial numbering sequences during the period in question, we can see what they were doing. I'm talking about all models, and all variants of those models. Then it starts to make a little more sense.

So, a seperate 'line' is set up for each of the variants.

The result is just what your beaut little C10 sheet says. Each 'significant variant' has it's own serial number sequence.

Note that that same sheet does not say that there is a seperate serial number sequence for cars bearing a different suffix.

WHO said that the body serial number sequences apply to SUFFIXES as well as prefixes??!!! I suggest you go back and read what I wrote again. I'm talking about major variant prefixes having their own numbering sequences. Once again I remind you that it was you yourself that was trying to convince us that one body serial number sequence was shared across all the model variants, and this info came from your "source". Clearly mistaken.

Actually, I was aware of it somewhere back in about '74 as that was when I bought a copy of the manual (which I still have). But then I'm also not inclined towards snide sarcasm.

I figured it would be better to see if Nissan Australia would provide a different slant but it seems they are reading from the same page too.

I think you need to look at your copy more often ( before you post! ) and also keep in mind that the major topic of this thread concerns Japanese market models. Quoting parts of the Export market manuals as though they are comments that you have personally obtained from your own enquiries to Nissan ( Australia? ) are not really going to cut the mustard, I'm afraid.

As for "snide sarcasm" - if you don't like being on the receiving end of it then I suggest you refrain from using it yourself first.

It also tells us quite clearly that the FACTORY didn't consider the suffix to be of any great significance after the fact of having built the car.

Nonsense! The suffixes are a vital part of the correct identification of the exact model variant. Surely you can see the irony of your statement when we have spent so many thread inches discussing just this very fact? Just because the weak links in the chain ( meaning us ) do not use them properly or - usually - acknowledge their significance, doesn't mean the factory considered them meaningless after the cars had left the factory. You only have to look at the first few pages of a factory parts list, service manual or Japanese 'Service Shuho' document to see the factory helping us to understand and use them!

You can lead a horse to water.............

If there is no hard evidence available in the future that the PREFIX is in some way falsified or altered from the day when it was placed there by the factory

then whether you or anyone else like it or not, then the factory has LEGALLY identified the chassis as a KPGC110 which we all recognise and accept as the basis used to build the GT-R.

That will require at least X-ray examination of the firewall panel.

You can consider a pukka factory-applied and unaltered 'KPGC110' firewall stamping a "legal" identifier if you want, but I think you would find that the idea of what is "legal" and what is not depends on the legal system in use in the court concerned. Maybe you'd have a chance in Australia, but I think Japan would be more of a challenge.

The reason being that ALL the other 'evidence' so far presented ( including the body serial number that follows the prefix! ) points to the bodyshell being something other than what the prefix says it is. All the parts attached to that bodyshell now ( and there's a grey area there, as the previous owner changed so much himself ) are a side issue, as the 'shell itself bears little tangible relation to a genuine GT-R 'shell.

Somebody earlier in the thread brought up the possibility of selling it back to Japan for a high price, but in my opinion ( I imagine shared amongst other GT-R owners ) such a car could only be sold as an anomaly, and is neither fish nor fowl. Hopefully this is academic, as I am sure that Brian has no intention of trying to pass it off as a 'GT-R' anyway.

Time for a cup of tea for me. :squareeye

Alan T.

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Correct! Think about it - what would a KC110 be?! A SWB 6-cylinder hardtop?

KC110 was a typo - should have read KPC110

GC110

KGC110

HGC110

KHGC110

HLGC110

KHLGC110

KPGC110

PC110

KPC110

Have a good look at that list - some are 'significant variants' but not all.

If they ALL had their own serial number sequence then there were 301 KHGC110's built and delivered overseas before our 2/73 model?

Interesting as there doesn't seem to be any sales data to support that.

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I'm talking about major variant prefixes having their own numbering sequences.

So "each distinct prefix type" is a major variant?

Even though eg the same body will be used for both a G16 and a G18 engined version of a sedan. Or maybe there were differences of such a magnitude that required a whole different assembly line.

Same for a GT and a GT-X hardtop, or again were they so different a bodyshell?

Perhaps the info from g72s20 above might go some way to convincing him?

Third party information with no bibliography to link it to a source.

A pointer to the 'ministry' you mentioned would be invaluable since such a solid source has proven to be rather elusive.

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Correct! Think about it - what would a KC110 be?! A SWB 6-cylinder hardtop?

On re-reading the code breakdown for both the domestic and export versions, a KC110 could theoretically exist.

It would be a SWB hardtop with a G16, if such a beast exists!

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Nonsense! The suffixes are a vital part of the correct identification of the exact model variant.

As only one example, one of our cars is KHGC110 xxxxxx but could be either a KHGC110Q or a KHGC110AQ with a suffix UAR, URT, or even UART

(all according to the June '74 export model manual)

No reference to the suffix anywhere on the car.

Provided in a form that can be readily seperated from the car or destroyed.

doesn't mean the factory considered them meaningless after the cars had left the factory. You only have to look at the first few pages of a factory parts list, service manual or Japanese 'Service Shuho' document to see the factory helping us to understand and use them!

See the above - or maybe I'm just too dense to detect that identification on the car that will allow me to use them.

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My apologies! Yes the KC110 did in fact exist and is as you say the SWB Hardtop with G16 engine.

That's what I get for posting without checking my facts first.

BTW H stands for automatic I believe Jim. I don't know what the T is for, but they all have that suffix except the KPGC110.

Here's a page you might like to see Art, from Australian C110 Service Manual. Do you have this too? (note only export models shown)

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If they ALL had their own serial number sequence then there were 301 KHGC110's built and delivered overseas before our 2/73 model?

Interesting as there doesn't seem to be any sales data to support that.

So from that I assume you mean that:

1. The lowest number 240K to arrive in Australia was number 301,

2. and it was a 2/73 compliance dated car,

3. and you cant find any evidence of the cars 1 to 300 being shipped to any other countries (which doesn't mean it didn't happen of course, they could be in Europe or some other market)

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BTW H stands for automatic I believe Jim. I don't know what the T is for, but they all have that suffix except the KPGC110.

Wasn't H an L24 engine and T a floor shift?

Here's a page you might like to see Art, from Australian C110 Service Manual. Do you have this too? (note only export models shown)

I have a very similar page to that in a Service Bulletin 'Introduction of Datsun 160K, 180K and 240K GT (Model C110 Series)'

Interesting the references to C10 models, something Nissan doesn't appear to have done for any other model changes apart from Datsun 120Y from Datsun 1200. About the same time frame too!

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So from that I assume you mean that:

1. The lowest number 240K to arrive in Australia was number 301,

2. and it was a 2/73 compliance dated car,

3. and you cant find any evidence of the cars 1 to 300 being shipped to any other countries (which doesn't mean it didn't happen of course, they could be in Europe or some other market)

One of ours is #302 so there were cars serial numbered from 001 to 301 built before it.

#302 was complianced in 2/73 but how many cars there were before that even Nissan Australia say they have no record of. Not too surprising as they are NOT required to keep the compliance records for 30 years!

I can't find any evidence of KHGC110's beimg delivered in anything like those quantities anywhere that a RHD car was marketed.

Hong Kong doesn't appear to have got the KHGC110 in '73.

South Africa apparently did get a K code C110 variant but I haven't found any solid data on whether it was a KHGC110 or something else. Even then it wasn't available until well into '73.

England may well have got the KHGC110 although there seems to be a real shortage of hardtops there of any year.

There are not many more RHD markets left and certainly not of a size that could absorb a reasonable quantity!

KHLGC110's (LHD) are rather unlikely to be part of the same serial number sequence as they would have been built on a seperate assembly line for the most basic of reasons in that the logistics of the different componentry is a potential nightmare.

If ANYONE has leads to factual and verifiable data it would be very well received by all.

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Wasn't H an L24 engine and T a floor shift?

Jim was talking about the suffixes.

If they ALL had their own serial number sequence then there were 301 KHGC110's built and delivered overseas before our 2/73 model?
One of ours is #302 so there were cars serial numbered from 001 to 301 built before it.
#302 was complianced in 2/73 but how many cars there were before that even Nissan Australia say they have no record of.

I don't know what you are even trying to say here. Yours is KHGC110-302. There were 301 KHGC110's before yours. Just because sales data is not readily available and you haven't personally seen VIN 1-301 does not mean they never existed!! Mine is 3929. How many of the cars between 302 and 3929 have you seen? The vast majority of these cars do not exist anymore!

Without information to DISPROVE, we must assume what is written in official documents is correct.

KHLGC110's (LHD) are rather unlikely to be part of the same serial number sequence as they would have been built on a seperate assembly line for the most basic of reasons in that the logistics of the different componentry is a potential nightmare.

The page I posted addresses this.

I don't understand what you're trying to say. So far I don't see anything we don't know already other than the brief Japanese lesson by Alan :squareeye

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Jim was talking about the suffixes.

As part of the suffix T is a floor shift (according to both the export Service Bulletin and Service Manual, I'm still trying to wotk that out in the JDM stuff).

Yes, H is actually part of the prefix:eek:

I don't know what you are even trying to say here. Yours is KHGC110-302. There were 301 KHGC110's before yours. Just because sales data is not readily available and you haven't personally seen VIN 1-301 does not mean they never existed!! Mine is 3929. How many of the cars between 302 and 3929 have you seen? The vast majority of these cars do not exist anymore!

I thought it was plain, sorry that wasn't as clear as it may have been!

Nothing to do with cars 'seen'.

What I was trying to get across: is there any good evidence that all 301 of those first cars were KHGC110's?

I don't believe there were sufficient KHGC110's delivered to account for that range and there is a high probability that not all cars in that range had that prefix.

Using the number of your car, is there any good evidence that there were 3627 cars all with the prefix KHGC110 delivered throughout the RHD markets between the dates of production (or compliancing) of those two cars?

The page I posted addresses this.

I don't see where that page addresses anything to do with serial number sequences.

There still has been no good and valid reason for the claim that each and every prefix has it's own serial number sequence!

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Having T as a floor-shift suffix would make sense of Jim's observation that all models have that letter in their code. However the KPGC110 doesn't have it. So not sure... It might just be a exception to the rule.

H is part of the prefix AND is also used in the suffix. They mean different things. I was talking about the suffix. I thought this was obvious. Sorry.

It is very well documented that for S30's it is certainly the case that there are different serial number sequences for different models. We've had a fair few confused people who thought the same as you for S30's... HLS30, HS30, S30, RS30, RLS30, PS30 etc. all have their own serial number sequence!!

From everything I have seen this is true across all Nissan models of that era.

The page addresses this in plain text.

These models start with the following vehicle serial numbers:

KHGC110-000001 KHLGC110-000001

HGC110-000001 HLGC110-000001

PC110-000001 PC110-000001

C110-000001 C110-000001

VPC110-000001 VPC110-000001

I don't know how you can argue with that? What 'evidence' are you looking for? What evidence have you got to suggest otherwise?

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So, can anyone shed some light on a 240K GT coupe, with number KHGC110000170? It has a compliance date of 12/72 and the letters GT stamped above where it says "seating capacity"

I saw this one under a layer of dust in a workshop recently. Would it be Australian delivered?

Oh, it was 4 speed too, tho not sure if that was factory fitted. Still has original L24 fitted.

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Yeah they were imported here as 240K GTs early on. Very early one!

The early ones were also 4-speed. From memory 5-speed was added later. It should be detailed in service manuals .... or have you got rid of them too!! Traitor!! Yer, I realise I'm being a hypocrite :P

Any pictures of it? Was it any good, and, was it for sale? :D

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AAh ok then. I just thought that with all this talk of there being no pre-301 numbered models in existence, then 170 might be something special. The car may be for sale, for the right price, but at the moment I think the owner wants to hang onto it. It's in need of a little TLC, but as I always say, if you ever found a '57 Chev in the same condition, you'd jump at the chance of owning it, regardless of the price.

Lachlan - yes, I've joined the dark side. You have to admit though, sideways around Willowbak autocross track in an angry bridgeport is hella fun. Of course if I had Gainsey's driving talent, it would be double the fun.

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Art bough a new car. 4 cylinder Prince Skyline. (You can tell its the 4 cylinder version by the shorter front guards).

Whats your plans for it Art?

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