Carl Beck

Is that the Silver Z that was just sold and delivered to Texas, as discussed in another recent thread? Or is it Ken Lewis's Z?

I have a 1924 MS-60, $20.00 Saint Gaudens Gold Coin - I "can" spend it...I'm sure any merchant would accept it as legal tender - - but I choose not to. A #1 car "can" be driven, sometimes they are driven from the trailer to the show area and back to the trailers. I have heard of people that buy and then drive #1 cars - but if they do, the car usually doesn't stay in #1 condtion for long. What the heck, if you want an "as new" Datsun 240-Z to drive and enjoy... $35K in todays money really isn't all that much. Buy a new 350Z and drive it for three years and see how much it's worth at the end... it would most likely cost you less to drive the 240-Z. FWIW, Carl B.

Mine has the dealer installed A/C - and it actually works pretty well. Nothing like any modern car with A/C - but for its time, it wasn't too bad. Most likely passible for NJ. I've seen L28's installed... so with enough time and money... yes, an RB26DETT could fit. A friend of mine is just finishing up a V8 conversion in a 2dr. I've kept mine "stock" so far - but I wonder what type of mileage I could get with a modern engine and matching gearing. The wagon is less than 2,000lbs... A KA24DE would most likely give 175HP and 28+ mpg in town if tuned for mileage... It would be an interesting project for Nissan Sport... Garages - Always make sure that the people that work in your local Zoning Dept. read and understand the Zoning Requlations in the same way you do.. before you start the design process... FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Chris: I don't use, nor do I recommend any "basic standard for evaluation". Doing so would simply lead to confusion, such as using modified cars as examples of #1 Condition Classics. The Condition Category definitions I use, and which I usually try to make clear - are from Kruse's "Old Cars Price Guide". Over the 40+ years I've been buying, selling, restoring Classic, Collectible and Special Interest automobiles - the most commonly used definitions of vehicle condition among Classic Car Collectors that I have seen, is that published by Kruse. See: http://zhome.com/Buying/OldCarsPriceGuide.htm Kruse uses the word "restored" as it is defined in any dictionary, they farther define the #1 & #2 Condition Categories as including "perfect or excellent original". Both "restored" and "perfect or excellent original" indicate that the standard is "as new" - - not as modified... Modified Cars - would not be covered by Kruse's condition definitions nor covered in their value guide. I do not know what value guide one would use for modified cars. By "in the magazine" I take it you mean the "Collector Car Market Review" magazine you referenced. If that is the case - I would suggest that you read their definitions that apply to their Condition Guidelines. Again we see "Perfect Original" and "well restored"... - - - - - -- Quote - -- Collector Car Market Review Condition Guidelines These are condition guidelines to help assess a vehicle's condition. Keep in mind that there are many factors that affect value. For example, a "barn find" may on the surface look like a #4 or #5 vehicle, but it's time capsule quality means it is worth more than it's condition would usually warrant. #1 Excellent: A close to perfect original or a very well restored vehicle. Generally a body-off restoration, but a well done body-on restoration that has been fully detailed may qualify. The vehicle is stunning to look at and any flaws are trivial and not readily apparent. Everything works as new. All equipment is original, NOS, or excellent quality reproductions. (See show car description in How to Use section.) #2 Very Good: An extremely presentable vehicle showing minimal wear, or a well restored vehicle. Runs and drives smooth and tight. Needs no mechanical or cosmetic work. All areas (chassis not required) have been fully detailed. Beautiful to look at but clearly below a #1 vehicle. #3 Good: Presentable inside and out with some signs of wear. Not detailed but very clean. Body should be straight and solid with no apparent rust and absolutely no rust-through anywhere. Shiny, attractive paint but may have evidence of minor fading or checking or other imperfections. Runs and drives well. May need some minor mechanical or cosmetic work but is fully usable and enjoyable as is. #4 Fair: runs and drives OK but needs work throughout the vehicle. Body shows signs of wear or previous restoration work. Any rust should be minimal and not in any structural areas. Cosmetics, body, and mechanics all need work to some degree. #5 Poor: In need of complete restoration, but is complete and not a rust bucket beyond repair. May or may not run. Not roadworthy. Parts or Salvage: Incomplete vehicle most useful for parts. Generally, take 50-60% of the #5 value. - - - - - -- END Quote - -- The Franklin Mint car very well could be a #1 car - likewise the Yellow Vintage Z ... however modified cars would not be within the category as defined. FWIW, Carl B.

Apples to apples - new to as new. $3,850.00 in 1971 x 445.67 = 17,158.30 today - so 2x is $34,316.60. Yep - new vs as new the value of a 71 240-Z has doubled even when keeping up with inflation. If you have used your Z - and today find that it is only worth $5K, then it has actually cost you $29,316.60 to use it for 37 years. That's $792.34 per year for inflation adjusted depreciation related use. Talk about Economy, Value WOW !! Playing with the numbers for a 240-Z can really make one feel good!! FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Mike: Humm..... that's a tough call. It would depend on who was judging it, where it was being judged and what the exact judging criteria were. As I said above, it would most certainly lose some points for minor imperfections - but could gain some for originality if the judging criteria allowed.. To the best of my knowledge no parts were re-plated, and the pictures do not do it justice - you really have to see this car in person. The plating has dulled a bit with use/age.. but everything is still amazingly good for its age. I know this car, I knew the original owner and I know the owner now - - if the Black Pearl is a #1 car, and a #2 car is only a few points off that - then IMHO this one is a #2 condition car if points are added for originality. Others would be equally justified in giving it a high end #3 rating if points for originality are not awarded. We have had discussions in the past related to the relative value of a truly "original" car vs one that has been properly "restored". This is a beautifully cared for "original" car.. and it should sell for $30K or something close to that. It will have to sell to someone that places a higher value on "original"... than on perfect... FWIW, Carl B.

see if this helps http://www.zhome.com/ZCMnL/tech/ThomasMSD.htm FWIW, Carl B.

Hi bamboo Not too many Zap Yellow Z's left running around. Good to see one in great shape. It's about time to run in around America again. Your close to the National Z Car Convention in Cleveland this year too. regards, Carl B.

My best buddy likes the Station Wagon the best. Lots of cargo area, and you can camp out with it at Sebring. The 510's are just "fun" to drive.. FWIW, Carl B.

I don't have pictures of a #1 Condition 240-Z. Hope to have some by the end of this year... Here is a #1 Condition 1978 280Z Black Pearl Edition. As I recall it now has something less than 700 miles on it. Always kept in a dehumidified air conditioned display area. A #1 Condition car is clean enough to win a Concours - you won't find a spec of dust under this car. A #1 Condition car is "as it left the factory" - or actually in the case of our first generation Z's "as it left the showroom floor". (having been PDI'd and detailed after arrival at the Dealership). In the first picture you can see that the window sticker and dealers supplemental price sticker are still in the window. Everything on this car is original and perfect (except the engine oil and battery) - you will not find a single flaw. In the second picture - the engine and engine compartment are original and perfect. All bright yellow Cad and Zinc plated parts - are as new. Every hose clamp is original and as new. etc. etc. etc. BTW - the 1980 280ZX 10th AE in the background is also a #1 condition car. A true #2 Condition Car would be very close to this - but it would lose a total of 3 or 4 judging points out of a possible hundred, for very minor imperfections. Might lose a couple of points for "over-restoration" compared to a #1 car. An all original example with say 10K to 20K miles - might lose a point or two because the Yellow Cad or Zinc plating has lost its brilliant shin - but then be awarded a bonus point or two for still having its original parts present in excellent (although not perfect) condition - its up to the judges. FWIW, Carl B.

If you drive the car in, leave it - then expect to drive it out a few weeks later - $3,500.00 would be in the ball park. If you do the removal and re-installation - then the initial setup and tuning - $2,500.00 would be in the ball park. If you do it, you'll wind up replacing all the belts, hoses, most likely adding a new or rebuilt alternator and starter... "while your at it".... Price can go up or down depending on the number of new values you need, the number of new rocker arms, new OEM pistons or not, the use of OEM or non OEM replacement parts etc. FWIW, Carl B.

Can you show them to us - on the net? thanks, Carl B.

Actually that chart is incorrect. The 4spd. in the 70/71 Model Year - type A was not the same, nor did it have the same gearing as the 4spd. used 72-74 Model Year type B. Secondly the 5spd. in the 1980 280ZX is different in its overdrive 5th.. 0.773 for 1980 model year and 0.745 for the 81-83 model year. FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Rif: Sounds like a very well cared for, low mileage ZX. I'm sure it will give you decades of enjoyment. It is getting harder and harder to find 280ZX's like that... Since the tread is titled 1981ZX, I'll mention this ZX here for other ZX Enthusiasts. If you know anyone that would like an all black, 79 280ZX 2+2, that could be a potential Gold Medallion Winner - with less than 7K original miles, from the original owner - let me know. The car is in Colorado and would be $20K. Very interesting history too... FWIW, Carl B. Carl Beck Clearwater, FL USA http://ZHome.com

Hi Poindexter (everyone) I can't argue with your primary reason - as it is yours. Mine is perhaps a little different. (just to continue this discsussion a bit). The primary reason that I have, for purchasing an Agreed Value Classic Car policy is to assure that the value of the car that is agreed to, is high enough to assure the car would be properly repaired, in case of an accident; without the major hassles presented by regular auto insurance with ACV coverage and Claims Adjustors. I can not stress emphatically enough - "properly repaired". Anyone that has dealt with a regular automobile insurance company Claims Adjustor - when attempting to get an 8+ year old car "properly repaired" rather than totalled - will know exactly what I'm talking about. My secondary reason would be to cover at least 80% of its replacement cost. I use an 80% factor because there is relatively low risk of it being lost/totalled - and I can afford to take a small loss if necessary. On the up side it keeps my premiums low. Simply a risk/reward trade-off. I believe we all have to keep in mind that there can be a significant difference between the current or future "market values" of these cars and their "replacement cost". To be made whole again - it is the replacement cost that must be recovered. Market Values vary greatly between the various geographic areas of the US. Clean 240-Z's on the West Coast and in many of the Western States are significantly lower than they are in the Eastern States. Mostly this is due to supply/demand in the local markets. Lots more were sold in the Western States to begin with, and a higher percentage survived. Let's say that your present 71 240-Z has a market value in the range of $12K to $14K in N.J.. As we can see - if we are following another thread at present - a $12K 240-Z located in California will cost one about $16K+ in N.J., once transportation costs are included.($4K enclosed transport) Add 7% sales tax here in Florida.(how much is it in N.J.). How about the cost of having the car inspected when you can't fly out to inspect it personally? Or the cost of your travel to inspect any prospective replacement? FWIW, Carl B.

The value of "original factory paint" could fall into a couple of different categories. a) The added value when selling the car The added value of having a perfect original car Most buyers that are looking for clean, well maintained 240-Z's - that they intend to refresh or restore themselves - will pick a car with its original paint over one that has been repainted poorly, repainted to cover previous damage etc etc. Nothing turns serious and knowledgeable buyers off faster than a slick, shinny and cheap repaint - on a car that otherwise is a questionable driver. In these cases a car with its original paint in decent shape will bring a thousand to fifteen hundred dollars more, and it will sell more quickly. Pay $1200.00 for Maco to paint it - and you'll actually make it harder to resell, and it will usually bring a grand or two less money. The value of having the original paint on a #1 or #2 example is certainly there - IF (big "I", big "F").. IF it is near PERFECT. Few things sadden the true Collector's heart more than to see an exceptionally low mileage (15K miles or less) example - that has otherwise been well cared for - having two or three door dings, or a couple of major scratches... These obvious FLAWS drive the perfectionists crazy!! Serious Collectors will simply take a pass... they do not buy cars to restore, they don't want to screw with the hassles of body shops and paint work - - they just keep looking for perfection. They will pay for it when they find it. Those very minor flaws can reduce an otherwise #1 or #2 condition car - to selling for $10,000.00 less money. (because it takes a year and an $8,000.00 paint job to correct) The value of the original paint on your car at present - in addition to that stated above (faster resale in a competitive market, plus a grand or more over other examples in otherwise like condition) - would be in terms of talking points as people admire it. My 510 SW has about 75% of its original paint - the hood and left front fender having been repainted after a minor fender bender (before I owned it). I am always quick to point out to people that most of the paint is original - on car that's 36 years old with 303,000 miles... It's fun and of other than monetary value to me.... How much value do you put on a fun factor... FWIW, Carl B.

AND How about this one? http://zhome.com/Ads4Z/Howey/Howey.htm rare color that is really pretty when new and shinny.. FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Fred / everyone: Yes - I remember the young man, and his Father was there with him. I think his Father had a full appreciation for the history of the car with his family. It really was a beauty - that needed only a few details corrected... The Collector that was there with me, was torn... between making an offer on that car or not. He didn't want to make the young man and his Father agonize over making a decision to keep the car or paying for college expenses.. In the end the Collector decided not to say anything... although he did make an opening in the conversation - that if they had wanted to sell it - or put a price on it - he would have bought it on the spot. FWIW, Carl B.

I can't remember exactly - but didn't the 240Z on E-Bay that we are discussing - win Best In Stock Class at the ZCCA Convention in New York? Chris - didn't you judge that show? That was Dr. Hyzer's car and he was the original owner. At any rate - speaking of values - a car that has been judged at a major event, by knowledgeable judges - will generally bring more money, only because prospective buyers have at least a better idea of the quality of a car they can't see. FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Ron: Actually the gasoline evaporative control system was only required in California in 1970. The U.S. Clean Air Act gave the individual States the authority to set local standards based on their local air quality. Our EPA wasn't established in law at the Federal Level until Dec. of 1970. Nonetheless, California accounted for over 35% of Datsun sales so all cars intended for the US were built to the California standards after Jan. Several of the early production (69) cars did not have the gasoline vapor recovery system, but so far all of them we have found had the Air Pump.. Canada did not require the Air Pump for their emissions standards in 1970, so several early cars into Canada were not equipped with them, although Nissan seems to have standardized production by late Jan/Feb of 1970 for all North American Z's, or the Canadian emissions standards could have changed as well. Air quality testing, emissions standards and technical compliance were all iterative processes during that period. Our Federal Government, our various State Governments and the automotive manufacturers were all heavily involved. When legal requirements were passed, that some of the automotive manufacturers simply could not meet, they were granted delays, sometime by made and sometimes only to specific models... I agree that in many cases the paperwork and the product didn't agree. Our recent discussion about the carpeting is an example. FWIW, Carl B.

If I had to guess, and a guess would be all it would be.... I'd say that the Z Car pictured is most likely one of the two North American Test Cars.... with pictures taken when they were in Canada in 69. FWIW, Carl B.

Sports Cars in general have never been a significant part of the total American Automotive Market. So reason #1 for the current prices on Datsun 240-Z's is simply supply and demand for classic sports cars. Relatively very little supply but also relatively very little demand. When supply and demand are about equal, prices stabilize... Within the class - the values of Datsun 240-Z's have done fairly well. Go find/buy a Triumph TR-6, an Opel GT, a MG-B GT, a Fiat 124 Coupe or a Porsche 914... today. All were in the same CLASS and price range when sold new, and there are a lot more 240-Z's still running than any of the others. I think you'll find that when comparing cars in the same category - the 240-Z's are highly valued today. Because they were so reliable and desirable lots of them are still around. Go up a price class - to the Alfa's, Lotus, and lower end Porsche 912/911's... I think you'll still find the 240-Z's relatively highly valued.... I think it is unreasonable to expect buyers of Pony Cars, Muscle Cars - to have an interest in the Sports Cars of the late 60's to early 70's. Priced a daily driver 1968-72 Corvette latey? FWIW, Carl B.

Only by dorks...

Too bad Nissan didn't stick with the Parker Agency... someone there would have known that by 1970 no one was using "groovy".... that was from the 60's 77 Sunset Place....da... Secondly it always bothers me when a DATSUN 240Z is shown by Nissan USA and never a mention of DATSUN. Someone should climb that Bill Board the next time a 240Z is up there - and Paint DATSUN across it.... I'd do it if I were in California.... you can bet on that. Great photo's however... FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Chris / bigoak Thanks guys, I'm glad to hear you like the article. I feel really good that more people will be able to see it and perhaps learn a bit more about BRE and DATSUN's Off-Road efforts in the late 60's and early 70's. They didn't get too much coverage in the period Sports Car Magazines, although covered in the Off-Road media. Since then Mr. Brock found another picture from the 70's - this one in color. http://www.bre2.net/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=B&Category_Code=brearchivephotos240zs and of course I had to order that!! Originally, BRE didn't have the front parking lights/turn signals installed - but I had to put them back in to get the car road legal and licensed. We got to see what was more or less the final draft ahead of publication. Mr. Brock and I reviewed it with the author, to assure that everything was as accurate as possible. I was impressed with the story line and writing, as much as the authors efforts to get everything straight. Sometimes stories get totally screwed up along the way.... FWIW, Carl B.