Carl Beck

Hi Ron: Thanks - I'd never seen that. The Data Plate looks like a photograph.. and the source is credited to Nissan.. We have a pretty good idea that the car was produced -the question still remains as to it ever having been sold to the public or retained by NMC USA. Perhaps for the US Federal Governments destructive crash tests.. Regular production cars had to be used for the MVSS certifications.. Very interesting nonetheless FWIW Carl B.

Amen Ron! Analyze what you design, build what you analyzed, test what you built and feed the results back to the analysis. Iterate until you get the same results from testing the as-built as you got from the analysis. As Designed, Configuration Management, As Built. In the end, As Designed and As Built must be one and the same. Because any necessary changes to the design, have to be implemented with a Design Change Order first. Ideally changes are made to the Master one at a time, and everyone involved is notified - - but we usually don't live in an ideal world. Hard to explain the fundamentals to people that haven't had the pleasure of working in a manufacturing or production environment; but even harder to make the people that do work there follow and apply them!! Some of the reasons that the Factory Service Manuals and Parts Catalogs may or may not perfectly match your car. There is a TV Show named "How It's Made". Produced by the Canadian Dept. of Education for Public Broadcast. It is a wonderful show and provides some insight to the world of manufacturing. A world that perhaps 95% of the people never see. FWIW, Carl B.

The harder edged ones, were developed and sold by aftermarket vendors here in the US. They extend the side body line around to the end of the hood, making that harder edge you note. I'm not certain, but as I recall the earliest vendor of headlight covers here in the US was BRE. They first sold the Fiberglass covers, for use on race cars, then offered the clear plastic versions. The Nissan OEM Covers were more rounded and smooth out that hard body line. "Original Style"?? I guess that depends on how you think of it. The Nissan Factory OEM head light covers remind me of the production originals on the earlier E-Type. Many people here in the US didn't like the trim ring sticking up above the body and thought that they looked to "added on" rather than designed in. They also objected to the relatively high price charged though the Parts Dept. The fiberglass head light nacelles on the 70-73 Z's have quite large production tolerances allowed, so it seems that no two sets are perfectly alike (that's an understatement). The factory covers overlap the headlight nacelles so perfect fit on the inside edge is not needed, then use an overlapping trim ring to hold them in place. (and thus they stick up above the body surface) If you buy the aftermarket type, which mount more or less flush to the body surface, because they mount inside the headlight nacelles, you'll find that they don't fit perfectly inside the fiberglass headlight nacelles either - for the same reason - production variations in the dimensions. This is far less a problem with the 73 steel headlight nacelles. Nonetheless, you usually have to "shave-to-fit" the plastic covers inside the headlight nacelles. Very seldom does anyone get it perfect on the first set they install. (for that matter neither on the fifth or tenth set!). Nonetheless from a few feet way they are close enough for most people. FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Kats: I would recommend taking the test drive routing North, loop though Canada as they did - it is beautiful driving country!! Then back into the States, and take the Northern route across the top of the USA, come down around the Great Lakes into Ohio (land of beautiful water) and head South though the mountains into Georgia (with stop in Atlanta) and on down to Florida. Plan your trip at the end of Sept to the first part of Aug. It gets cool early in the Northern part of the US and lower part of Canada. By the end of Aug. it is possible to run into heavy snow in the mountain passes. No offense to the people in AZ, NM, TX, LA... but that route is shall we say less interesting, less green, and boringly flat.. I believe that the Notes from the Test Crew - means the Test Crew arrived back at NMC by the 20th of Dec. - to find the first car with the improved parts was already there. HLS30 0008 was the Cover Car for Road and Track Magazine - and it was on display at the 1969 SCCA Run Off's by Nov.26th Every indication I've ever found - from the people involved and press coverage etc indicated that all three of the Press Cars arrived just after the middle of Oct. 69. So they must have been flown in from Japan. The first ship to arrive in L.A. with 20 Z Cars included in the shipment, arrived in late Jan. 1970. That is where BRE got their first Datsun 240-Z. Cars 0009 though 00015 - no one really knows for sure yet. Since the mid-70's there have been "stories" or "urban legends" about them. The most usual is that they were sent to Canada for further cold weather testing, or that they were the cars used for the US's Safety crash testing and certification programs. Some people belive that they were given to some of the private race teams like 0008 was. According to the Nissan Parts Catalogs HLS30-00013 was the first sold to the public. I have been in contact with people that claim to have seen it. One person sent me a picture, but I couldn't see the VIN. That person wrote to tell me that his friend had the car then sold it. So it is "possible" that 00013-00015 are out there, but so far we've never been able to track them down. (I've been looking since 1974). FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Kats: Perhaps... just maybe... The Test Crew arrived at NMC the 20th of Dec. to find the first car to arrive with the new parts had already been received while they were on the road test. By Dec. 20th the Jan. issue of R&T was on the news stands. Magazines usually are printed and delivered before the Issue Date. That sentence you had a question about might read if more fully explained - - -This car is the first one "to be built with the new steering and drivetrain parts" and pictured in the road and track issue of Jan 1970. That would make sense - it would have been HLS30 0008. It was silver and delivered to Bob Speckman (a private racer) by the Datsun Competition Department, in the fall of 1970, after Nissan was done using it for publicity etc. It was in the L.A. Auto Show, was the cover car for R&T and was sent to the 1969 SCCA Runoffs (Nov. 26-30) as a show car. HLS30 0008 was raced as car #14 at the 24 Hours of Daytona and was the first Z to finish the race. It finished 4th O/A. It is still being raced in Vintage Events by Dr. Bork FWIW, Carl B.

John Williams 770-806-2926 You won't find any better FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Filipe: Your Z looks wonderful - you have to be very proud of it. When David comes to visit us in Florida - we put him to work!! Here's a picture of David sitting on a friends car - his Uncle is standing next to him. By the time they left we had the car stripped to a bare shell and ready to go to the body shop. Standing to the far right is Jim, that's his garage. FWIW, Carl B.

I doubt it will take Greg long to get used to that GT-R... and take it to the track.. Thanks for posting the pictures - just wish Miami wasn't so far away... or maybe it wasn't so hot in Aug/Sept here in Florida... Looks like you have a good group of enthusiasts in your area.. Carl B.

From earlier threads - Kats said that the test cars were Pre-production or Primary Production prototypes #14 and 15 ---------------------------from the last corrections to the referred thread - - --- May 1969 - total 2 cars - one domestic, one export: 1 = S30-00001 (Factory prototype 1) 2 = HLS30-00001 (Factory prototype 2) June 1969 - total 1 car - domestic: 3 = PS30-00001 (Factory prototype 3) July 1969 - total 4 cars - two domestic, two export: 4 = HLS30-00002 (Primary Production prototype 1) 5 = S30-00002 (Primary Production prototype 2) 6 = PS30-00002 (Primary Production prototype 3) 7 = HS30-00001 (Primary Production prototype 4) August 1969 - total 7 cars: 8 = S30-00003 (Primary Production prototype 5) 9 = S30-00004 (Primary Production prototype 6) 10 = S30-00005 (Primary Production prototype 7) 11 = PS30-00003 (Primary Production prototype 8) 12 = HLS30-00003 (Primary Production prototype 9) 13 = S30-00006 (Primary Production prototype 10) 14 = PS30-00004 (Primary Production prototype 11) -------------------------------------------------------- Production for Sept of 69 9 Domestic 2 Exports 11+11 in Sept is 22. So the two exports in Sept had to be HLS30 0004 and 0005, with domestics filling in the blanks. Add any HS30 in Sept. and it becomes impossible for the test cars to fill positions 14 & 15, as the total would have been 22 or above going into Oct. As mentioned the test cars arrived the 9/10th of Oct. so they couldn't have been produced after that. Past that point, HLS30 0006, 0007 and 0008 arrived just after mid Oct. 69, in time to make the North American Show Car Circuit in late Oct. 69 - LA and NY being the first of the series then. So I don't see how the build of HS30 0002/3/4 could effect anything.. I could be missing something... FWIW, Carl B.

This time of night I'd expect it to be in his garage So far the Z he restored hasn't shown up on any of the registers, nor e-bay etc... but we keep looking... FWIW, Carl B.

Oh my God here we go..... Carl B.

Hi Mike: I saw an ad posted on a Bulletin Board during the 1995 Convention in Atlanta. Same as the ad for #16 that you posted. When I returned home at the end of that week - I called, and called and called - no answer. This went on for weeks, and finally at 11:00PM some girl answered - only to tell me that the previous party was no longer at that phone number, she had just gotten it a few weeks earlier. She said she thought the person had moved to Columbus, Ohio. So for the next couple months I tried to track the person down in Columbus.. no luck. A couple months after that as I recall - I got an e-mail from the owner of #16. Seems he had advertised it for sale - and the response was so huge he felt he underpriced it - so he took it off the market. Now he was thinking of selling it again. I told him to put a price on it that made him happy and let me know, as I'd be a buyer. We exchanged e-mails several times, but he would not commit to a price nor a sale. He just couldn't make up his mind. I related that story to my friend in the Tampa area - - when he ask me about the car. So my friend started calling the owner, who we now knew lived in a town just North of Columbus - every couple days. The owner traveled a lot, and wasn't home very much, nonetheless my friend kept calling. He talked to the owners wife for hours and got to know her, he talked to the owners live-in baby sitter for hours and got to know her (Shannon). This went on for months... Finally he caught the owner at home - and the owners wife told the owner to make up his mind if he was going to sell the car or not - she was tired of talking to my friend. The owner had just bought a 1926 Caddy - he needed the room for a new project - so he agreed to sell the car... for the originally advertised price. My friend called and ask if I wanted to go to Ohio with him to pick up the car and drive it home. The owner had assured him it was "Pristine" and could be driven anywhere. So we flew up to Columbus and the owners wife picked us up at the Airport. When we got to the owners house, we meet Shannon and I want to tell you SHE was PRISTINE!! At that point the owner wasn't home yet from another trip.. so we had to wait a few hours... When the owner got home, we went to the garage, un-coved the car and it was in very good shape. Even still had it's original 1969 Dated Spark Plug Wires! Started up and ran like a clock... My friend paid for the car and we were on our way SOUTH... We were both laughing the whole 1500 miles home ... "PRISTINE Carl!!" .. my friend would shout... and we'd laugh as that 240-Z ate up the miles at 80mph+. The only problem we had, was the fact that the seats had lost their support.. and we were sitting on the lower seat frames.. So we stopped at a local K-Mart somewhere in Kentucky and bought a few pillows to sit on... BTW - the car was originally Gold, the owner had the exterior body painted White. Other than that the car was about 99% original and rust free. It had originally come from Texas. Bottom line - #16 would be worth far more than Wick's car... FWIW, Carl B.

All other things being held even - an interesting VIN will sell first, and perhaps for a bit more money. FYI - RLS30 00020 was the OMS Pace Car that Bobby Unser won... its still in the Unser Garage.. FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Guys: Many early Posters were produced by Nissan USA for use in show room displays. The Datsun/Nissan Competition Department also had Posters produced for the various classes of racing. If the original artwork was Nissan's - then it is likely that BRE2 would not reproduce it without copyright permissions - and we all know that is all but impossible to work with Nissan. I have a 1970 BRE C-Production Championship Poster, but Gayle said BRE did not produce it... I did take it out of the showroom... FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Kats: As the HLS30 and HS30 had different series numbers - why would it make any difference if HS30-00002/3/4 were made before the test cars? FWIW, Carl B.

Got busy and forgot to hit the "submit" button - should have returned to the thread and checked.... FWIW, Carl B.

Are we forgetting that California, Oregan and Washington are also close to the oceanROFL FWIW, Carl

Hi nwa240z: Thanks for your reply. You have a pretty original car and so far no other has turned up with the same Series Number. So you are most likely in pretty good shape. Likewise "scarab153" plus he has some documentation to accompany his. I'll state right up front that I'm no expert on the Scarab's - indeed I have only a very limited knowledge of the cars. I applaud Mike's efforts to gather together as much information as possible and make it publicly available here. Thanks to you and scarab153 for contributing to that knowledge base in this thread. It is a shame that an effort to publicly document and register these cars wasn't started years ago. It would have been of benefit to all owners, as well as sellers and buyers alike. If you and Craig believe that there were two cars given the same series number by Brian, and you believe that the car on e-bay really was produced/modified by Scarab, then that's the best information you can provide to a prospective buyer. I do believe that it should be preceded by "In My Opinion" or "Based On My Research I Believe...". The main reason for public discussion on this forum, is for the benefit of prospective buyers. The Pro's and Con's of any car are usually fully discussed - and the prospective buyers, if they are here, can make their own decisions. My opinions are simply based on 40+ years in the Classic, Collectable and Special Interest markets. If I wanted a Scarab, I'd want it as original as possible and with as much documented history as possible. {Tigers, Corsa's, Pontiac GTO's, Fuelie Corvettes, LS-6 Chevells you name it and you'll find plenty of fakes in the market}. Buyer Beware - anyone that wants a real "whatever" - I believe is best advised to buy "whatever" when it is fully correct, with a documented history. Lacking that, the closer one can get to that standard the better the bet with one's money. Personally if i wanted a Scarab, I'd keep looking for one, I can't see getting involved with any car with a controversial background nor one that has been so extensively modified to begin with. As you said - we'll have to let the market determine what that specific car is worth. I would hate to see it set the benchmark for the value of Scarab's. FWIW, Carl B.

Hello jtmader: In five years the price you paid for the Z's you mention - will look like an absolute bargain. In addition to that, if you go shopping five years from now - you'd be looking for a year or more to find any for For Sale in like condition. Some of the old saying prove true over time - "You can't pay too much for a really great car, nor too little for anything less." FWIW, Carl B.

IHMO - the only way the seller on E-Bay can prove it is not a fake - is to display the original bill of sale, and other Scarab Documentation that would have come with the car. It is presented as being a 2 owner car - so the documentation should be available if it is not a fake. For collector cars - if any question exists - the documentation rules. FWIW, Carl B.

The question is, "was it ever a Scarab?". The blue Z on E-bay is presented as being a two owner car - were you the first or second owner? I'm wondering why you believe it is a Scarab - when so many things say it is not. FWIW, Carl B.

If one owner has all the original documentation showing #153's purchase and the car is still "correct". That is Scarab #153. If another owner has a car with the correct badges, same Scarab number - wrong engine mounting position, wrong front spoiler, and NO ORIGINAL FACTORY DOCUMENTATION showning that the car was produced on that date and later sold by Scarab - then all he has is a HybridZ with a STORY TO TELL.... At best he has a SCARAB Replica... Is is a mistake to assume that the Scarab facility made any mistakes on their numbering - when they bothered to number their cars to begin with.. FWIW, Carl B.

Is a coil spring, with "0" clearance between the coils really a "spring" or is it just a "coil of spring steel". Is it possible that someone has heated these springs, to let them collapse? Maybe to lower the ride height? ??????? Carl B.

Hi Kats: Where would we see Mr. Matsuo's Letter ? Did you mean to include it in your Post? FWIW, Carl B.

Seller Says "has about 140K miles" The $19K car had closer to 60K - and the engine and engine compartment were fully refreshed (Cad Plating, paint etc)... This car really should sell in California in the range of $14K to $16K = IF everything stands up to the description. Looks like a slight dent in the front bumper... and one would want to see if the paint is of high quality.. etc etc.. A nice one owner car... Cars like this were selling for $5K or less ten years ago.. FWIW, Carl B.