HS30-H

But the price difference of 240Zs (certainly the softened up and dumbed down versions...) and 432s demonstrably is averaging $200,000 lately. It's a fact. So what you're saying is that the North American market got what it wanted, or - by inference - wasn't sophisticated enough to handle anything much else? I would strongly disagree. First of all many other manufacturers sold complex sporting cars into the North American market with no problem, because there were serious buyers/drivers out there with the sophistication to appreciate them and the means to buy and look after them. Your "difficult to get parts" and "a V8 would give better performance" lines don't stack up unless you are referring to the base level market (which is pretty much the same people anywhere) . But secondly, when it came to the Z North America never got given the choice to prove anything different anyway. LOVE the "girly badges" thing (what a gift! I'll quote you on that forever now). Personally speaking I think the 'Fairlady' name was a bit outdated by 1969 and could easily have been dropped, but Nissan wanted to link the S30-series to what came before it so I can see why they kept it. The genius part was the use of the letter 'Z' and all that went with it. Of course, '240' is all but meaningless and it is amusing to think that it was dreamed up in a last minute panic because the North American market would be scared to drive a 'Fairlady'. Presumably those people thought The Village People were perfect examples of heterosexual manhood? If you hate the 'Fairlady' name then it makes me inclined to like it a bit more than I otherwise would. Thanks.

Exactly what point am I missing? You seem to be trying to tell me that 911E man is right. You're talking about money and ego again I see, the inference being that anyone who buys a 432 now is an egotist with more money than sense. That might hold some water if the buyer in question bought a bad one for more than he could sell it on for, but that's something we'd have to view on a case-by-case basis don't you think? I still think you've got an inverted snob's take on the matter. I'm not sure I completely understand what benefit you are referring to above? I'm not a 432 owner, so how do I stand to gain here? I'm flattered that you'd think I have so much influence (shucks) but the market value of a PS30 Fairlady Z432 is not a function of anything I have said or done. Your words "myth" and "spin" are telling. When the 432 debuted at the 1969 Tokyo Auto Show and Nissan put their top of the range model in pride of place on that rotating display stand, was it all about creating 'myth' and (literally) 'spin'? I don't think so. It was all about the package. When you classify your new car series as a 'Sports' then the most sporting iteration of that series - the most complete dynamic package for the sporting driver - is naturally going to presented as the top of the range. The 432 was the most expensive showroom stock S30-series Z when it was new (for good reason) and - with the exception of the 432R - has changed hands for the most money ever since. For the best part of 45 years that happened solely in Japan. What we are seeing recently is that a few eyes and ears outside Japan have been opened, and a few cars have been exported. Any "myth" or "spin" you might perceive has a solid foundation of 47 years of reputation and history built up by something that Nissan created for the specific purpose of being the cream of that particular crop. There might be a little hyperbolic sales patter and ill-informed flannel spun on top by the auction houses and dealers involved, but the asking prices are a function of something other than lies and exaggeration. Presumably - as the ying to that yang - you think there's no "myth" or "spin" connected to the HLS30U and its sub variants? You haven't noticed us creating the zeitgeist where a 1969 production car is more valued - both physically and philosophically - than a 1/1970 and up car? It's not a conspiracy, its natural...

Have you been eating too much cheese before going to bed? My point in bringing 'HLS30-00013' into the discussion was a (rhetorical) comparison regarding "the numbers". When 'HLS30-00013' was re-discovered/internet-publicised and discussed a few years back, somewhere among all the hyperbole mention was soon made of potential value should the car ever come onto the open market. I think I'm correct in recalling that numbers well into six figures were being thrown around, and yet - in contrast with the 432 being discussed here - 'HLS30-00013' isn't really all that different than several hundred other 1969-built HLS30-prefixed cars, or several thousand 1970-built HLS30-prefixed cars. The "it's almost the same as..." argument doesn't work, does it? Clearly the concept of 'value' is not solely about performance figures and/or relative content, and we still have not really got our teeth into the difference between the nebulous concept of 'value' vs the price...

Honda S2000? Great. Good car. Now all you need is a time machine so you can take it back to 1969 and put it into the relevant context.

So the self-styled "Ultimate Z Junkie" thinks that a 432 is all about an engine and a set of badges? Actually you might be lucky enough - if you put the effort into it - to find a proper 432-variant S20 engine for a lot less than your quoted $200k. About $50k might suffice, but you've still got a very long shopping list to fill (because a 432 isn't just an engine and a set of badges...). Part Number One is a genuine PS30 unibody, chassis number and papers, and that's going to cost you a lot more than your quoted $25k. If you're looking for an S30 you're looking for the wrong thing. If I'm mistaken about that then I've unwittingly hit the jackpot with my car. So what's the Dollar figure for the history, kudos, romance and all those other nebulous properties that come with such machinery?

Your case? It seems to be one of repeated miscomprehension and lack of imagination. You talk about "the numbers". Here are a few other 432 numbers for you to juggle with: 5, 192, 6, 15.1, 400, 25. There's some fun to be had in guessing what they refer to in this context. Here's a clue: Your 'NA 240Z' didn't have them. But of course, if you focus only on "the numbers" you miss the point. Sorry but it's something that you either get or you don't. As xs10shl pointed out, somewhere out there in the ether there's a plain vanilla 911E owner protesting that his car isn't all that much different than the 911 RS changing hands for twenty times more. Surely that 911E owner doesn't need to be told that it's not all about "the numbers"? When someone buys a 911RS they are not simply buying a set of performance figures. When you give a girl a diamond ring, you're not just giving her a stone. So you're saying that - given the free choice - you'd give her the paste over the diamond?

Thanks for the virtual Rorschach test, but my 'dimwits' comment still applies. I think it stands up to scrutiny against the likes of "For a 1/4 million bucks you get a $20,000 car and a whole lot of ego" and "I'm also not interested in how easily a fool and his money is parted, I leave that to you as well." So anybody who buys a 432 is an egotistical fool, right? You're now whining about "ad hominem attacks" but you were all for them when you were indulging yourself in the same here just a few weeks ago. Had a Road to Damascus moment? What I'm reading now doesn't seem to match up with the apologetic comments you sent to me by PM recently. Presumably you also miss the irony of whining about ad hominem attacks whilst you pepper your post in that very thing? The reason I'm calling our friends Blue and Grannyknot (and anyone else who qualifies) dimwits is because they don't get it. Blue can have the sobriquet with knobs on for his extra smallblock-equipped, orange painted faux low VIN effort, although he's only going to catch bottom feeders with his over-baited hook. Look, we've discussed these cars many, many times in the past on the classiczcars forum. I have taken part in a great many threads regarding them here and I've made clear what I think of them. The classiczcars.com forum archives are probably one of the best single-venue online resources for data - and opinion - on the PS30 and PS30-SB in the English language. I'd be immodest enough to say that I think I personally have a fairly good theoretical and practical knowledge of the variants in question, which is something the "Nice badges though, worth every penny" boys probably don't. I don't think I have anything to prove to you in that respect, even if you do think it's "...a form of weakness, in mind and personality". It seems to me that the people who are sniffing at the whole idea of the 432 (and their recent sale prices, which are simply a function of what our friend xs10shl so eloquently and succinctly describes) are only indulging themselves in their own inverted snobbery. Slating the 432 - and all that goes with that - whilst at the same time professing to be deeply interested, to the forensic level, in early production Zs and their fine details simply won't wash. By the way, I notice my retort to Blue's fake ebay ad idea (some will swallow that whole, but anyone switched on will realise that a Sumitomo S-16 caliper is a Sumitomo S-16 caliper...) was deleted and that Blue is - once again - able to edit his posts without leaving any excuse or evidence. Funny that...

By the way, I'm up for a proper discussion on the PS30 Fairlady Z432 if anyone else is. Informed, intelligent discourse - robustly presented - is always welcome. It might even pour over into a bit of philosophy (nothing means anything anyway, does it?) and there might be some mist and fog around the more nebulous edges of the topic, but we might actually get somewhere that the comments above won't take us to. Your "Emperor's clothing" and "fool and his money" comments appear to be throwaway lines intended to stir up a discourse that you are ill-equipped to take an informed part of. Perhaps you should leave it to people who know what they are talking about, or whom are willing to learn?

Moral of that particular tale: 'Don't buy crap from Blue.'

First of all, it's Alan. A-L-A-N. Got it? Secondly, the name of this forum is classiczcars.com (got it?). If you don't recognise the PS30 Fairlady Z432 as one of the most desirable, rare and interesting iterations of the S30-series Z then maybe you are on the wrong forum? If Mike is going to be looking back at anything he might want to take a peep at many of the recent posts from you and your sidekick (many of which have been, ahem, deleted...), which are often off-message, off colour and - in my opinion - more suited to the level of zcar.com than classiczcars.com. My comments about philistinism still stand. It's hard to take seriously anyone who snorts "you get a $20,000 car and a whole lot of ego", and I wonder if you would like to point it out to the 432/432R owners who frequent this forum? Does the comparison still stand if the car in question is HLS30-00013?

Reassuring to see the forum dimwits being dimwits. We can't be far from an 'LS-it' meme... The "what's all the fuss about" viewpoint is half philistinism and half luddite. If a G-Shock tells the time more accurately, why would you ever buy a vintage Girard Perregaux? Why buy an oil painting when you can have a bubble-jet printed poster for next to nothing? If she can't tell the difference, you might as well give your wife a paste ring instead of wasting all that money on a real diamond.

Couple of answers from me then; First of all, as far as I understand it this is a commercial proposition. You're in business, right? You're here to sell your product but you also appear to want the help of the 'community' that you intend to sell to. Why do I have any obligation to help you with that? There are other people currently working on reproductions that I would trust - from their track record - to make a better job than you. Secondly, the classiczcars.com 'community' has - over the years - probably done more to provide you with photos and data than any other web based resource. We have discussed the nuances and details of these factory parts many times, and we have uploaded many original factory documents, period photos and examples of The Real Thing which you will no doubt have used in your research(?). I have been a participant in much of that, so I don't think I owe you anything except perhaps the honesty of a reality check... You'd probably prefer a few more sycophantic clicks on the 'Like This' button, but all those virtual claps on the back will not get you very far in the real world. I still find it hard to believe that anyone would think they can make an accurate reproduction without having an original to use as a datum point. As I've pointed out before, this is as much about the elusive *feel* of the product as it is about measurable dimensional accuracy. Anybody who has had a set of originals in their care, let alone actually fitted a set to a car, will hopefully know what I am talking about.

So you still don't have a genuine set to use as a reference? That is why I'm thinking you are unlikely to fully succeed with this project. What you call "negativity" is - where I'm looking from - probably better described as rationality. You started this thread almost exactly a year ago and you still haven't produced anything yet. You don't appear to have a sample to reverse-engineer from and you don't appear to have grasped the fine details that will be the difference between something that looks *right* and something that doesn't. For example, I see you talking about cutting countersinks for the screw holes when the originals have a pressed countersink. I think there's a very good chance that the repros from our fellow member 'esprist' - through his company jdm-car-parts.com - will hit the market before yours, and will be more faithful replicas in both detail and the all-important *feel* than you will be able to achieve.

How is it possible to make the correct profile (asymmetric 'U') channel with a waterjet? I still think you are not grasping the full detail of the parts in question. They sound - even look - simple, but they are complicated to make properly and require some quite expensive press tooling to replicate the original manufacturing method and- therefore - the original look.

Suggestion from 'A Certain Personality': How about calling it a 'vented type hatch' (as opposed to 'vented quarter') to make the difference clear? The difference being The Whole Point...

Why would I do that? I don't know anything about 'National Bearing'. However you, of course, must know something worthwhile about them (quality/metallurgy/fit/finish) in order to be urging us not to buy. So where's the data? Unless your problem with them is simply where they are made...?

What's the real point of this thread? Are we supposed to avoid 'Made In China' wheel bearings simply because they happen to have been made in China? I don't know about anyone else, but I try to buy parts based on QUALITY and AVAILABILITY. Whoever makes the best quality parts (as far as I can tell) gets my money. I should imagine most of the people who bought a 'Made in Japan' S30-series Z when it was new had roughly the same philosophy. If the particular 'Made in China' parts in question are poor quality/fit, then please show the evidence to support the claim. Likewise, if the 'Made in Brazil' parts are superior, then please demonstrate how...

For example? Given the shortest possible time gap between any 1970 production-dated car and any 1972 production-dated car is just over 12 calendar months, what kind of scenario would you think made that possible? Somebody found a forgotten crate of parts behind the canteen door? My experience would be that there usually is some rhyme and reason to explain such perceived phenomena, and it is often the case that we - as civilians - are misunderstanding and misinterpreting what we see. I class it with the "left-over 240Z parts used on 260Zs" type comments...

432 fuel filler pipe and cap was exactly the same as that on contemporary build L-gata engined models.

It's in good condition because it's a colour photocopy of an original...

Sure. Why not? It could also be bought as a period-themed resto-mod project or any other scenario from mild to wild. It is a relatively rare surviving example of a 1970 Fairlady Z-L, and it appeals to certain people because of that. I'd say it is probably worth more than a similar condition north American market model of the same age. We need to be accurate here. A 'Fairlady 240Z' would be an HS30-S 'Fairlady 240Z', HS30 'Fairlady 240Z-L' or HS30-H 'Fairlady 240ZG' with an HS30-prefixed chassis number, produced roughly from September 1971 through August 1973. The car in question is not a '240Z'.

Sorry, but with all due respect the US title and any customs paperwork are not reliable witnesses to the production date of this car. My own 1970 Fairlady Z-L was 'titled' as a "1976 Fairlady Turbo" when it was originally imported to the United Kingdom by a USAF pilot in 1979, as the British vehicle licensing agency simply didn't know what they were dealing with... 'S30' prefixed chassis numbers produced in year 1969 ran from 'S30-00001' through 'S30-00953'. For 1970 year production the range was 'S30-00954' through 'S30-04330' and 'S30-04501' through 'S30-04504' (note the 171 car gap between '04330' and '04501'). This is not "Model Year" or 'Series', it is manufacturing date. Alan T.

The hand-written kanji next to the big '69' on the warranty booklet says 'Nen Shiki'. A rough translation would be '69 year style'. This does not mean the car was actually built in 1969, and I would not place too much emphasis on it. It has as much relevance as the 'Series One' and 'Series Two' type comments in the grand scheme of things.. I'd also have to say that if someone made a purchase order for a car in 1969, and had to wait the best part of ten months for it to be delivered, then it must have been a pretty long queue that they were at the back of... No, it's not a purchase order it's just a three year new car warranty booklet. Look, there's no chance of this being a 1969 build year car. We know enough about these cars to confirm that it was built in the second half of 1970, and persisting with the romantic but nevertheless mistaken idea that it was built in 1969 is going to hinder the sale not aid it. It's going to be a bone of contention in the kind of uneducated discourse you often see on the likes of Bring A Trailer, and it is a distraction from the truth of the car itself. Better to accept it is a 1970 build year, and a rare survivor of the type with a lot of potential for a new owner to add value by putting some work into it.

"Appraised" by whom? I can only conclude that this person did not know what they were looking at. As stated above, I have a lower chassis numbered Fairlady Z-L myself and it was made in the second half of 1970. Nissan Shatai's production records and the records of the Japanese motor vehicle licensing agency contradict the claim that your car was built in 1969. If you look closely at all the manufacturing date codes and quality control stamps on the componentry of the car they will show a majority of June/July/August/September 1970 dates. And here's no "numbers matching" in the accepted sense for these cars, as the chassis tags on Japanese market cars did not record the original engine number in the way that north American market cars did. Sorry, but it's a 1970 car. You'll put yourself in a stronger position regarding the sale if you embrace that fact. Good luck. Alan T.

Well spotted, Mike. The page with the Showa dates in the wallet with the owners manual is the dealer warranty, and it shows the 'Shatai Bango' (body/chassis number) as '03814' and type as 'S30', so it is 'S30-03814', a 'Nissan Fairlady Z-L' built around July 1970. Japanese market cars didn't have door jamb tags, or dash-mounted chassis number tags either. I have a 1970 Fairlady Z-L too. It has the chassis number 'S30-03761', so just 53 apart in the same numbering sequence. The "Series 2 body with Series 1 hatch" type comments are fairly common when people look at early Japanese models. They are often being fooled by the shape and style of the solid, non-vented Japanese market rear quarter emblems. They were round in shape, non-vented and had a big letter 'Z' in them, so they get mistaken for the generic vented "series 2" quarter emblems shared by all models in all markets: