Early Series 1 Tie Rods

[JohnnyO]

It is my understanding that the early series 1 tie rods are different than the later ones.

If this is true:

Are they available somewhere?

How do you know if they are shot?

Is replacing the boot the same as rebuilding?

I am in the middle of the suspension rebuild and want to know if saving these is worth the trouble.

Thanks,

John

[geezer]

John, are you confusing differences between the ball joints & knuckles on cars preceeding HLS30-07985? Other than that, I am unaware of any differences for the steering side bar assembly (Nissan given name for tie rod end). There is a superceeded part number in the parts catalog but it is undated without any explanation given.

One thing to note is the error made in the FSM. Here is the TSB and described "paste on page", to explain that.

As far as knowing if they are shot, by grasping by the tire & wheel while off the ground and shaking back & forth, any significant wear will be noticed.

Edited January 9, 2010 by geezer

[JohnnyO]

Ron, Maybe I am confusing the ball joint with the tie rod ends. So the tie rods are the same for all Z's. That's good to know. I wanted to replace/rebuild these during the rebuild but noticed that the bushing kits come with the boots and wasn't sure if the rubber bushing was replacable.

What's the difference in the ball joints? My car has a lot of pre-1000 vin parts and am starting to think it had problems during assembly and sat for a while before they assigned the vin. My block number actually is in line with cars in the 750 range.

I havent got the ball joints pulled yet (still working on the tie rod ends) but will search to see the differences.

John

[JohnnyO]

After reading this thread:

http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17423&highlight=series+ball+joints

It sounds like the 14mm steering knuckle that comes on the later ball joints is a better performing ball joint/knuckle. With it being 14mm wouldn't the tie rod ends be a different size also, say 14mm to match the knuckle?

If so, would early series 1 ball joint/knuckles be 11mm and would the tie rod ends be 11mm also?

Maybe I am even more confused than I think I am. Please set me straight.

Thanks,

John

[geezer]

Regardless of the steering knuckles being the early or later type or being the shorter optioned length, the tapered holes that accept the tie rod ends are identical.

I would agree that the 14mm updated version of the ball joint is a beefier part and likely to wear longer, but haven't heard of any failures attributed to the smaller size. As an aside: Why do the aftermarket companies supply a 11mm replacement? The Nissan originals are referred to as being 12mm.

If your knuckles are the originals, could you post some pics with measurements after you remove them? I have a few questions of my own that I haven't been able to get answers to. I believe there are a few misconceptions about the early steering knuckles.

When replacing the early ball joints, it is nessesary to change the steering knuckles along with them as a set, if updating to the 14mm version. Or, you can still buy the early ball joints. There is a recent thread about the availability of them. I bought a set to use with a set of custom built short steering knuckles.

Edited January 9, 2010 by geezer
Added a pic & a question.

[JohnnyO]

Ron, OK, I learned something. I thought the steering knuckle and ball joint were one piece. (Should have been looking at the FSM)

I removed the front suspension but did not remove the ball joints yet. I will get them off in the morning then soak them in degreaser and post some pics and measurements.

You are correct, Rock Auto list 2 manufacturers with 11mm as an option. If you are correct (and I believe you) that OEM was 12mm I wonder if there was a fitment issue with after market 11mm wearing too quickly or excessive play. Not sure.

What measurements do you want?

Judging by your diagram above I should be able to measure the shaft and tell the difference. I don't know if I have the right tool to measure the thread but should be able to measure the diameter of the shaft.

I am probably going to order the Moog if mine are 14mm if not do you have a prefered brand? They offer a/c delco and raybestos in both sizes and Moog in only the 14mm.

All offer castle nuts and xerxes fittings.

They also sell Moog outer Tie Rod ends. I will be ordering both side from them.

I don't see the steering knuckles listed at Rock Auto. Any idea who might sell them?

What about the inner/upper tie rod ends? Should they be replaced?

Thanks for all the help.

John

Edited January 9, 2010 by JohnnyO

[=Enigma=]

It's interesting that the different sized ball joints are referred to by the size (12m or 14mm) of the threaded shaft, rather than by the width (15mm or 17mm) of the taper they're designed to fit into.

Edited January 10, 2010 by =Enigma=

[geezer]

Actually, the measurements I want are from the steering knuckles, not the ball joints, only if they are original to your car. I am trying to determine if any of the early cars actually came with the 105mm short steering knuckle. All the evidence so far points to them only being an over the counter optional part. Finding a car with the short knuckles proves nothing but finding cars with the 115mm steering knuckles proves the point.

First you have to determine what is on your car. If you have the later version 14mm ball joints you only need to replace them. I hear you can still get them from the dealer? If you have the original 12mm and you wish to change to 14mm, a trip to the boneyard is in order or get a set of knuckles from someone like me that has some lying around;). Just check the castelated nut to see what size ball joints you have.

1st pic is a better illustration than in the FSM showing the assembly. Just ignore the fact they show an unserviceable ball joint in its disassembled state.

2nd pic is extra set of 115mm steering knuckles that accept 14mm ball joints. also in this pic are a set of oddball fabricated 105mm steering knuckles that accept the early ball joints only.

Edited January 10, 2010 by geezer

[JohnnyO]

I will pull the ball joints and knuckles Sunday. I'll let you know what I find Ron.

John

[JohnnyO]

Ron,

This is what I found after getting the ball joints and steering knuckles off.

Castelated nut inside diameter = 11mm

Ball joint threaded shaft = 11.5mm

Steering knuckle ball joint receptor = 12mm/15mm top/bottom of taper respectively

Steering knuckle length between 2 bolt holes = 105mm

This seems to make sense to me. The nut being slightly smaller than the shaft and the shaft being slightly smaller than the receptor.

What do you think?

Are these the original or is there a way to tell if they are original?

I couldnt upload the pictures because I left my card reader at work. I will upload them on Monday.

Hope this helps you, it definately helped me.

John

Edited January 10, 2010 by JohnnyO

[geezer]

I wasn't expecting that. They seem to be the original size as well as being the shorter quick steer knuckles. Were the ball joints in good condition? Any slop in them?

You now know what your options are. Buy a pair of 11mm ball joints to replace your originals if they need changing or buy a set of 14mm ball joints and get a set of knuckles to match. Of course, doing this you would also have to decide if you want to also find 105mm knuckles that fit the 14mm ball joints. So many choices. You could even opt for a set of the AZC short knuckles for lowered cars that have the bumpsteer correction built right in. Here's a pic of one.

I have been trying to get accurate measurements of the knuckles I have on hand. I'm not quite sure how they go about measuring these center to center with tapered holes. The early short fabricated set I have seem to be 100mm. They must have been made up for track use, back in the day.

Edited January 10, 2010 by geezer

[JohnnyO]

Is the area marked with red the area that should be either 105 or 115?

If it is, this measurement on mine is 115mm on center (Approximately)

I measured between the 2 bolt holes not the ball joint hole to the tie rod end as indicated by your drawing.

Sorry for the confusion.

John