Carl Beck

Hi Kats: The Fairlady Z's in the US will usually sell for about 75% to 80% of the value of a like condition, US Spec. 240-Z. Very understandable that people want cars they can drive - on the correct side of the road ;-), from the correct side of the car ;-) Given that about 3% of the 240-Z's produced, were sold in Japan, it is also understandable that being far more rare - their value would be higher than the US or Left Hand versions there. We don't know what percentage of the 240-Z's sold in Japan were 240-ZG's.. but it has to be a very limited number and again, it is understandable that they would command a higher price as well. Given the very limited number of 432's produced, the even more limited number of them remaining - and given the "neat" factors involved - I'd expect them to always command prices of at least two to three times the value of the regular production cars. So your view of the market in Japan seems very reasonable to me at this point. I'd have to agree that $60K USD is a bit high - when you can buy a Vintage Z in the US for $40K. It doesn't cost $20K to ship a car to Japan. "not selling" might also be a matter of the owner not really "Selling" the car - not advertising it properly nor promoting it properly etc. No Classic Car should be considered as a very liquid asset. It can take months and months to put a buyer together with a seller of any Special Interest or Classic Car. If your logic related to age/time and a cars depreciation were correct - then we should see the prices for all Classic Cars from the 40's and 50's going down in value now. We don't. We see all very desirable models of Classic Cars appreciating at reasonable rates.. from the 40's, 50's and 60's. Any discussion of the present and future "values" of "Classic Cars" has to be within the context of normalized dollars - ie. you have to factor out the inflation/deflation of the currency and hold values to constant units. If you do that, and you look at the buying/selling prices for most true Classic Cars - over time they hold their value, and/or appreciate at reasonable rates... The example of using a Model A roadster, really isn't applicable. While the Model T's and A's have always been interesting parts of automotive history - there is simply nothing "Classic" about them in the sense of the word meaning "of timeless beauty". Let me say that again for emphasis - "OF TIMELESS BEAUTY". Apply that definition to any Classic Car - and you will find that the cars that fit that definition - have always appreciated in value over time. Generation after Generation of car enthusiasts desire the beautiful lines of the real Classic Sports/GT's.. With growing populations of people world wide - there are growing numbers of automobile enthusiasts - at the time that there are an ever more limited number of true Classic Sports/GT's available. In the past 12 years alone, 400,000,000 Chinese have gained Middle Class standards of living... Just 40 years ago - a very small percentage people in Japan, could dream of owning a high powered, large, Sports GT... Let alone own one for purely pleasure use. I believe that your investment in both the Datsun 240-Z and the Fairlady Z 432 are very sound, and over the next 20 years you will see that value grow steadly over the long term. Even if there are short term up's and down's.... The Datsun 240-Z changed the world's opinion of the Japanese Auto Industry, it will always hold a significant place in automotive history - but more importantly - the Z is Of Timeless Beauty.... FWIW, Carl B.

Yes - correct - thank you Will... Carl B.

Yes, the 73 would bring slightly less money and it would take longer to find a buyer. For some reason the first of a desirable model run, always seems to be the most "pure" of form (styling) and "function", so it usually (although not always) demands the highest prices. Other times it's the last of that model that has the most improvements incorporated and thus becomes either the first or second most sought after. 55,56,57 T-Birds, 63-67 Corvette, 64-67 Pontiac GTO's. The 1973 240-Z's here in North America will always be hurt by the extended bumpers, emissions carb's. How big the gap in value between the 70-72 and 73's will be - I believe will depend on now many cars in total are saved... far better to have a 73 240-Z, than no 240-Z. Yes - non-Stock Carb.'s on a 73 would put you in the Modified Class many places, and many points would be deducted - carb.'s wrong, air cleaner wrong, intake manifold wrong.... plus all the points for wrong parts associated with the emissions equipment... FWIW, Carl B.

Those items (tinted glass, underhood light, map light and steering wheel lock) may very well have also been Standard Equipment on the Z-L, just not listed on the sales brochures. I didn't see them specifically listed as "optional" anywhere either. Alan / Kats ?? FWIW, Carl B.

I think that the "L" was Luxury... it had more "Standard Equipment". <pre> STANDARD EQUIPMENT <b>Datsun 240Z Fairlady Z-L Fairlady Z</b> 2.4L 150hp 2.0L 130hp 2.0L 130hp 4spd 3.36 Final 5spd. 3.9 Final 4spd. 175HR14 Radials 14" Bias-ply 14" Bias-ply AM Sig. Seeking AM/FM Stereo - - - - Electric Clock Stop Watch Clock - - - - Reclining Seats Relining Seats - - - - Rubber Bumper Rubber Bumper - - - - Rear Defrost Rear Defrost - - - - - - - Passing Light - - - - - - - Assistant's Footrest - - - - Full Carpet - - - - - - - - Tinted Glass - - - - - - - - Underhood Light - - - - - - - - Map Light - - - - - - - - CourtesyLight (door switch) - - - - - - - - Steering Wheel Lock - - - - - - - - Additional Color Standards 904 Dark Green - - - - - - - - - 907 White - - - - - - - - - 918 Orange - - - - - - - - - </pre> OPTIONS: Just about every "option" offered on the Fairlady and Fairlady Z-L at the Factory Outlets in Japan, were matched by Nissan Port Installed or Dealer Installed Options and/or Aftermarket Equipment here in the States: Dual Exhaust 5spd. Vinyl Top Racing Strip Bumper Over-Rider Headlight Covers Roll Bar Rear Spoiler Assistant Footrest FM Pack A/C Dealers here in the States were prohibited, by law, from changing any items related to the U.S. Emissions Standards. However the law did not prevent customers from making whatever changes they wanted in 49 of the 50 U.S. States and Canada. Although it doesn't seem to have been listed by Alan or Kats - I'm not sure about full carpet being Standard on the Z-L. ???? I could have missed it along the way. FWIW, Carl B.

if it checks out - its worth every penny of $15K. I'm not sure it would bring $18K with that mileage - but it wouldn't hurt to buy it at $18K if its the 280Z you always wanted. Agreed - the Dealer should sell at $15K... or even $14,500.00... FWIW, Carl B.

Of course not - - The Agreed Value on YOUR CAR is dependent upon the condition of YOUR CAR. If you insure your Z with a Classic/Collectable/Special Interest Insurer - their underwriters already know what cars they have insured, and what the Agreed Values are. You can call the Hagetry for example and you will find that - if the car is indeed a #1 or #2 example, or if it falls with a Special Interest group (Vintage Z's Race Cars, etc) they will have no problem with an Agreed Value in the $35K+ range. They won't let you over-insure a daily driver... but if you have a real #2 condition 240-Z they won't blink an eye at $30K. Agreed and I don't believe anyone said it was a "singular cause". It's one cause, others include increased demand as more people can afford to buy the cars they want, reduced supply as Collectors take very nice cars off the open market and stick them away, the devaluation of the Dollar's purchasing power.... agreed... and no one said it was simply the cost to restore... FWIW, Carl B.

I think they might be either a little optimistic... OR they haven't been shopping seriously for a 240-Z in the past year. They might be thinking that one can still buy a really nice, top level #3 car for $12K.. I haven't seen any sell for less than $16K in the past 18 months... A top level #3 Car would win Local Car Shows, and many State Level Shows in the Stock Class... I doubt you can buy that quality 240-Z today for $12K (if you can - DO!!). The biggest difference is the degree of fine detail, the level of perfection exerted to achieve "as it left the factory". When the Judges stand with a Judging Sheet, and closely inspect every nut, bolt and hose clamp to assure they are all "correct"... every thread in the upholstery.... every square inch of paint and body work... date stamps on the wheels, original keys, documentation packages, ..... and deduct a point or two for every picky flaw... a #2 car will not lose more than 5% of the available points. A great #3 car - won't have to have that level of detail perfection. They are judged more on an overall presentation basis. The best of the cars that show up at Local and State level events... They win their class, if no #1 nor #2 cars show up, and they come in 2nd if a #2 condition car shows up. Most serious "Enthusiasts" see a #3 car as nearly perfect - because they don't stand with a judging sheet in hand, and closely inspect every nut, bolt and screw. Rather most enthusiasts see the car in an over-all sense. They don't notice, nor do they care if every nut has the correct marking on its head.. they don't notice, nor do they care if every hose in the emissions system is "correct"... #1 and #2 Condition cars are for fanatic Collectors, driven by owning perfection. The usually won't buy anything any less. #3 Condition cars are for the people that love the Datsun 240-Z, know it wasn't perfect to begin with, and really never notice that someone had changed a few bolts... they just see the car as they saw it when it was new... in a very over-all sense. Huge Gap between #1/ #2 cars and #3 or less... #1/#2 cars are close in value - but almost always twice the price of a #3 car. They simply sell to quite different buyers, or at least for quite different uses. (some serous Collectors own both types - one to keep in the living room - and one to drive). Ask 26th Z - how pickey he can be when judging the Stock class at a National Convention. Very hard to judge a car from pictures... but it might be an interesting thread - we can all argue about "what is correct" or not. FWIW, Carl

Hi Arne: A #2 condtion 240-Z would win First In Class, in the STOCK Class at a National Z Car Convention. When judged by knowledgeable judges, when no #1 car shows up. These cars (#2) currently change hands in the $25K to $30K range. A #1 car - would be a Gold Medallion winner - and on top of that it would far exceed even the Gold Medallion standards. They would sell for $38K+ if one ever comes up for sale. if you can get it to that point for that amount of money - you should also get an award for personal effort. Or you were smart enough to have bought all the perfectly correct parts, years ago.... At any rate, win a First In Class at a National Convention... and you'll double your money. Hold the car for a few more years and you'll likely triple it, IF you maintain it in #2 condition. FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Guys: I think Mark nailed it - The cars of our youth, aren't always the cars that were NEW when we were 16 to 25 years old. Most of them are the used cars we wanted, but couldn't afford. Look what the older crowd are spending on Street Rod's today - and look at what they are paying for them at auction..$60K isn't much any more... As the Internet Z Car Club came on-line around 1987, there were two distinct groups of Z car owners sharing information there. A somewhat older group that had owned and driven Z's for years, and a younger group still in college, struggling to keep their old Z's running. To the younger group at the time, the Z was a matter of "affordable" and "fun" transportation. Today that older group is 55 to 65+ and that younger group is 38 to 45.... both are now willing and able to pay for nicer cars... FWIW, Carl B.

Funny - the last five 240-z's that have changed hands in past few months - that I know of - were all sold for $35K or more. These were of course Collector Quality examples.. Nonetheless - in a few more years I doubt you'll find a really nice, example for much less than $30K... It just costs so much more than that to restore one today... The best bargains are really in the $18K to $22K range today - they are the cars that will be over $30K in a few more years. FWIW, Carl B.

You'll have to check the spec.'s on those - I don't have a clue as to what the fuel pressure should be in that case. Nonetheless, you always want to verify the output pressure from the regulators your using. Most of them are pretty close - but then they can be 1/2 psi off, one way or another pretty easily... FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Martin: There was an interesting article about Shekhar Menta in the Fall 2007 edition of NISSAN SPORT Magazine. Titled: "UNSTOPPABLE - Remembering teh remarkable life, of arguably the greatest East African Safari Rally driver ever: Shekhar Menta". Perhaps you could review that article - then put together an article of equal detail, that covers Mr. vanBergen's years with Nissan/Datsun - based on your research, your interviews with him and the photo's etc. you have collected. http://www.nissansportmag.com/ I'm sure NISSAN SPORT would like more coverage of the International Rally scene, and you could get the word out to a fairly broad base of Nissan Enthusiasts. Contact NISSAN SPORT if you don't have that issue - I'm sure they would send you a copy of the article about Shekhar for reference, layout and content expected. FWIW, Carl B.

Bump... bump..

If the line pressure is too high - it will force the needle valves in the float chambers open... and you'll see gas running out of your carb's... You can go to almost any Performance Auto Parts speciality shops - or shop the Web - and buy an in-line fuel pressure gauge. They really aren't all that expensive - Then set the Fuel Pressure Regulators to 3.5 to 4.5 psi (depending on the type and condition of your Carb's floats/needle jets)... and check the line pressure at the carb.'s. Also depends on what Carb's you are using!! Are you talking triple side drafts or OEM S.U.'s??? FWIW, Carl B.

Hi JoelH: I agree - "DONE RIGHT" a Street Mod. 240-Z will sell for good money. It's just that in my humble opinion, I see too many lazy-man, cheap arse, or very poorly thought out shortcuts taken on this one. Having driven thousands of miles, to look at hundreds of these cars - I can assure you that if the pictures look questionable, the cars are far worse when you see them in person - 99 out of a 100 times. For $10K to $12K you should get a really nice 240-Z that needs very little farther expenditures on your part. One that exhibits the craftsmanship and attention to details that a higher quality Street Mod. 240-Z will have. When you find one - be willing to spend the money up front for higher quality - it will always be far less expensive in the medium to long run. All these cars have a certain amount of "Price Elasticity" - I called this one $5K, based on the amount of additional money you would have to put into it, to get it to the level you said you wanted, and at which price range you were looking in. So buy it for $5K, put an additional $7K into it - and who knows, perhaps you would wind up with the car in the shape you wanted it. The "norm" is that if you plan to spend an additional $7K - you wind up having spent twice that by the time you are done. (ask anyone here;-) The rule of thumb today is - "You can't pay too much for a really good 240-Z, and you can't pay too little for one that's not." Check some of the cars and the asking prices in the "Classifieds" here on this sight - just as a reference. As always - just my perspective... Carl B.

Like I said - everything is OK for a Street Modified Z - but it can't be judged for "value" against a value guide for Classic Cars... Work done 16 years ago - may need a lot of rework by now. Picture #1 Dash Cover - cracked dash ($850.00) Wrong Seats - rebuilt, recovered OEM seats - $400.00 by the time your done at least Wrong Carpet set - 280Z Carpet covering the correct diamond vinyl. Wrong Steering Wheel ($150.00 restored - maybe $50.00 used) Wrong Shift Knob... $75.00 OEM replacement in show condition Picture #2 Wrong rear carpet - correct diamond vinyl covered or missing Looking at the hatch hinges - was this car originally Orange? Picture #3 Wrong Wheels...not period correct for a 240-Z, even if non-OEM hubcaps Rear Deck emblems missing $150.00 Engine Compartment Picture non body color - and a very sloppy paint job - no attention to details.. It would take a lot of effort to straighten this out at this point. don't know if it still has the original engine or not...????? painted over the plastic air intakes, shock covers, painted over the accelerator linkage - uck painted over the hood support - uck painted over the brake vacuum booster - uck missing OEM fuel filter & holder...(not unusual for triples, but not stock) Red Block - uck Electric Fans - missing stock fan... Body: Black-out or missing stainless trim on both windshield and rear window FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Steve: I believe you are applying the wrong value guide to the car. NADA values Classic/Collectible/Special Interest Cars. When they say "restored" or "older restoration" - they are talking about a car that was returned to it "original" condition - ie Pure Stock. NADA Values are NOT for 95+ Point, Concours Judged examples either - Most of us would call them very high end #3 Condition Cars, to lower end #2 Condition Cars at best... Nonetheless they are valuing Pure Stock, correctly restored examples... (not Perfect Examples). The car we're looking at is anything but Pure Stock... it's a Street Modified, week-end cruiser... I'm sure it's a neat car for what it is - but it can't be held to the values of a Restored Classic Car. I'd agree that "IF" the car was pure stock - and presented well - even in average condition it would sell for $9K to $10K..... but almost everything is WRONG with this car considered against Pure Stock. FWIW, Carl B.

As for the car ask about in the original Post - no way a street mod'ed car, refreshed 19 years ago with the issues mentioned so far - is worth anything close to $12K. If it was $5K I might go look at it.. only because it is close... In the Street Mod. class - you can buy a much higher quality example. Keep looking.... or wait until it sits there for the next three months, with no buyers then offer him $5K if it checks out and runs well. FWIW, Carl B.

Very interesting to compare these two 280Z's even though they would both attract quite different types of buyers. 27K vs 83K mile 5spd. vs A/T constant use vs sitting for 20 years not used perfect body vs a body with damage/small spot of rust and needing refreshing running vs non-running??? Ohio vs California All original documentation vs ????? To an extent it's a show car vs a project car.... we'll have to see what the final prices for both are, before we can decide which offers the most value for the money paid... FWIW, Carl B.

Hello Martin: Good to see you here. I am sorry that you felt the information you sent me, about Mr. van Bergen was "censored" by me. The word "censorship" carries a connotation that I do not believe applies in this case. To the best of my knowledge, no one (Merlin nor myself) is attempting to stop information about Mr. van Bergen from being published... ie censorship. The truth of the matter is that while I personally found it interesting from the perspective of Datsun/Nissan history - there was very little information related to Mr. Van Bergen and the Z Car, ie. the main theme of "the Z Car Home Page". So I didn't really see much Z content to publish there. TSK 33 SA 694 - I believe that van Bergen had the lowest finishing position of any of the Factory Teams running Datsun 240-Z's in the 71, 72 and 73 Monte Carlo Rally (10th OA in 71), so at the time, I couldn't build a story around that, without a lot more information. FWIW, Carl B.

Looks like a very good Z to start with ... it could be a real beauty when you are done.. I agree with 240znz - get brakes, get it running and drive it for a while. Then decide what to do, and in what order. Personally, I'd take it apart - get the body and paint work done... then work on the suspension etc. Nothing keeps you going like a car that "looks" like it deserves drivetrain and suspension improvements. Besides, they are all bolt on items that can be easily done, after the body/paint - and you would not wind up with over-spary from the body shop on your new suspension parts, or engine... FWIW, Carl B.

Phil, in another thread confirms that the original engine is no longer in the car nor available. FWIW, Carl B.

Hi Phil: The starting bid on #279 is $7,500.00.... The asking price on #357 is $10,000.00... You are asking $4,000.00 for #464.... That's pretty close to half as much... It's really hard to find a 69 production Z - that would be considered to be in "restoreable" condition (restoreable in the sense of a condition grade - being a Classic Car) for much less than $8K today. Did not mean your asking price should be cut in half again - as you have already done that. Spend $35K to restore a matching number car, or spend $35K to do the same for a non-matching number car. The matching number car will sell for $35K and the non-matching number car might sell for $18K. FWIW, Carl B.

HI Phil: There is a question as to the original engine still being in the car or not. One person reported engine serial number L24-04642 as being installed in the car. Did you put the original engine, with Serial Number L24-02389 back in the car, or was it in the car when you bought it? thanks, Carl B.