HS30-H

If you go back and read my post again, I believe you will see that I already put forward my take on the likely scenario. Perhaps you did miss something after all? Anybody that wants to take this further, and ask some pertinent questions, can contact the seller here: http://www.zclub.net/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=2165

Half the point has been missed. Did you ever stop to think just why this *identity kit* had been removed from it's original body? There are now quite a few such identities knocking around in the UK for example, and they are the result of 'bodysnatching' activities. Rusty or crashed UK market cars are being re-shelled into imported bodies, with the UK car's identity ( often including the original section of firewall sheetmetal that carried the body serial number and prefix ) transferred onto it. That leaves the original body donor's identity going spare, and the devil will find work for idle hands to do........ Point being that the items in that ebay auction were evidence of something that had already happened, just as much as potential ammunition for something that may or may not happen in the future. To my mind, the recipient of that donor body is arguably something of a zombie car - unless the owner is completely up front about what his car really is. These things tend to get hushed up rather than broadcast.

Bonzi Lon, Congrats on your new project. I think it's great, and I'm cheering you on from over here. Alan T.

I count at least five different types being discussed here. There was more than one type of 'Nissan OEM' spoiler, and three of them have been pictured on this thread already. Count the sub-variants of those ( some of them even made without raised flats for emblems, and both with and without pre-drilled emblem mounting holes ) and start multiplying.......

Jorge, Lovely car! A very rare bird. Congratulations! Alan T.

Hi Brian, Didn't know you'd sold both of your 110s. Good to see a post from you on this forum again. Stay in touch. Cheers, Alan T. Edit: Here's a pic for old time's sake!

Well, it's not getting any clearer. I'm afraid your writing skills might not be up to the task of getting across what you are trying to convey...... If any 'nerve' has been hit, I think it might well have been one of yours. You captioned photos of your car, calling it a "240ZG" ( it isn't ), and I - politely but firmly I believe - pointed out that this was inappropriate. Sarcastic replies about my own car and parts attached to it, along with daft comments about "purists" ( tee hee ) were fired back. Completely missing the point. I think anybody who takes these cars seriously will tell you the same thing that I yold you; that none of us can play god and change a car from one factory designation into another just because it suits us. A replica or lookalike should always be flagged up as just that, and there should be no grey area. So when you fire words around like "....choose to bring the Z car down...." you might want to think about why I might have pointed out the error to you, and how letting it go would actually be the thin end of the wedge that will dumb us all down. Now, if you are able - and indeed if you even know what you meant when you wrote it - I still need you to explain your comment: ".......choose to bring the Z car down with their wealth of information that's never rendered......". In the meantime, Have A Nice Day!

NissanMaster, I think you need to self-educate yourself about what the term 'Works' means in this context. You obviously have not got the faintest clue. And what pic did I "take down"? I have never taken down a pic in response to your comments, my friend. I know what my car is, and I know what I - and others - have done to it. It is what it is. The difference between you and me is that you think it is fair game for you to call your car a "240ZG", when in fact it is nothing of the sort. You cannot change the factory designation of your car from one factory model into another. My car left the factory as a genuine 'HS30-H' Fairlady 240ZG, and that fact cannot be changed - even if all the ZG-specific componentry were to be removed from the car. If you don't understand the difference, then I'm afraid you will have to get somebody to explain it to you. Maybe Carl Beck might volunteer...... Now, when are you going to explain your comment about the "...wealth of information that's never rendered.."?

Well, whatever way you look at it, it's an awful lot of pet door sales, isn't it?

So you think it is actually overvalued by 15,000 to 20,000 Pounds Sterling more than it's asking price.....? The asking price ( open to negotiation, by the way ) is £44,950 Pounds STG........ You're going to have to explain that one to me. Well, if you can find a customer who is willing to spend money with you - then good luck. After the completion of this e-mailed build, that customer would have to import the car and pay customs duty on it. That's going to jack up the cost somewhat don't you think? That's not even taking into account that ( I reckon ) you would have great difficulty in supplying an HS30 with a UK identity, not to mention the MSA log book and historic papers, from the USA. I'm not questioning the quality of your work or John Coffey's, but I fail to see why anyone here in the UK would want to gamble on beta-testing ( ha ha - see what I did there? ) your first shot at an MSA historic stage rally car. You also seem to be forgetting that many of these 'arrive and drive' type customers need advice in their build spec as well as support in on-event servicing and logistics. You will be coming over with John Coffey to do this as well, no doubt? You'll be checking into an "insanely expensive" hotel if you think in Dollar terms, I'm afraid. No doubt it would look even more expensive to somebody looking in from Papua New Guinea - but what does that have to do with anything? This car is for sale in the UK and is reflecting the economic situation concerning building such a car in the UK. If it does not sell then Oakfields will have to reduce their price, but I don't think they are going to alter their asking price just because you say it's "too high" for a territory, customer base and market sector that it is not being aimed at. If those points are lost on you, then the discussion is not worth continuing with.

Where am I "losing" you? I've already mentioned that this car cost the original owner more to get built than it sold for at auction, let alone what Oakfields are asking for it. He bailed out, and ended up with negative equity. I don't know if he expected a return on his "investment" ( I highly doubt it, to be honest ) and I think it is far more likely that he just didn't enjoy the car as much as he had hoped, and perhaps realised that it takes a little more than a good car build to be competitive in that championship. Having a professional race shop build you a bespoke race car is never going to be any kind of financial investment with a promise of future profit. It's a tool for a job, and the job is what is supposed to give you the return - in the form of enjoyment. I don't know anyone who expects to get all their money back after having had all the fun........ You're going to have to tell me where we don't agree, because as far as I can tell we are both in saying the same thing - although I don't know where the 65 or 75K pounds figure is coming from? I'm not advocating that anybody starts commissioning professional race car builds as some sort of pension scheme....... I'm not going to start talking about what is "different" between the UK and USA, except to point out once again that in my opinion you could not replicate this car at the price if you have one built professionally in the UK. There are lots of amateur race and rally drivers here in the UK who have their cars built for them rather than building them themselves ( there's a whole industry based on it ) and I can't imagine that it is any different anywhere else in the world. And just like everywhere else, we have the home-builders and backyard constructors too. Indeed, some of these amateur British constructors became world famous......

I'm talking about the many hand-fabricated and hand-modified parts on such a car, just as much as the outright cost of components such as the suspension - which will be scratch-fabricated Bilstein 'monotube' design on this particular car if it is still the same as the last time I saw it. The wheels are magnesium Minilites, which currently retail at around £500 each here in the UK. A properly certificated cage will run to the best part of £1000. Costs soon mount up....... So the componentry is expensive, but the main amount of time and therefore cost will have come from finding a solid RHD 'shell to start with, and in repairing, modifying & strengthening that as a base to build into. The builder needs to have experience in the type of event that the car is going to participate in, and in this case it is essentially forest / gravel stage rallying - which the car needs to survive just as well as go fast on. Anyone who has not seen what these cars have to go through might not fully appreciate the work that has to go into them. Please don't expect me to answer that properly with a few lines here. If you really want to know all the ins-and-outs then I'd refer you to the RAC MSA direct, from whom you can obtain a booklet containing the full rules and regulations for the championship. It's all pretty complicated once you start getting into it. Sorry, I can't do the subject justice here. Well, first of all I'd like to point out that the BringaTrailer attitude ( a bit like the title of the thread here ) seems to be both horrified by the asking price, and yet approving of the car - without acknowledging the local situation or what might have gone into the car. They make much of the "similar style" to the Works cars, when in actual fact there is just about nothing on this car that is similar to that on the Works cars - which is of course natural. It is a modern build which needs to comply with modern regulations and safety concerns as well as utilise modern technology where it is allowed. They mention "period gold wheels" ( what period was that then? ) and point at the mudguards ( modern acrylic materials ), the number square ( so what!? ) sliding plexiglass windows ( when the Works cars had roll-ups in Lexan and then reverted to glass ) and retention of the Factory dash ( but which has been gutted and then flocked ). They also talk about the bumpers having "no trim" when it is quite clear that they do. They go on to talk about the car possibly not selling for this asking price because it would be possible to build a "more prestigious" Porsche "similarly prepped" for "the same money" - which I can tell you would most certainly not be possible here in the UK if you had it built professionally! The Oakfields sale description does itself no favours either. They make mention of "ex-Works Triple-Solex" carburettors - when the car is quite clearly fitted with modern emissions-type Webers on an American inlet manifold, and mention that it was "Built to period Works specification" - which is complete nonsense, and should just be classed as sales flannel. But I say again, this car is likely worth every penny that they are asking for it if you consider what it would have cost to build, and what it would cost to replicate. It has an MSA competition log book and Historic Rally papers, which make it eligible and ready to go rallying in the UK championship, and there are people that would consider this far cheaper than building a competitive Escort or Porsche. What makes people shy away from buying it and using it for it's intended purpose is that the early Z has a reputation for being something of a handful 'on stage' and needs to be mastered to get the best out of it. An Escort or Porsche 911 will be easier to master, and being more common as rally cars there is more data available for them and more specialists who can look after and 'run' them. The Escort and Porsche are the 'easier' choices. That's why this car did not sell at auction and Oakfields picked it up, so that they can wait for Mr Right to come along and buy it from them. Good luck to them, I say. I hope they get what they are asking for it.

'NissanMaster', Can you kindly explain to me just what the following is meant to mean? ".......choose to bring the Z car down with their wealth of information that's never rendered......" If you can actually explain that, then I'm all ears. Not forgetting that you got upset and started sending me insulting messages just because I pointed out that you were calling your car a "240ZG" when it clearly is nothing of the sort. How "negative" of me, eh?

Yes, I know the car. I had a good look around it at auction, and have seen it in use 'on stage' too. Some points to take into account: *It is being sold by a dealer who bought it at auction for about 20% less than they are currently advertising it for. *The asking price is actually in Pounds Sterling currency, so converting that into ( a currently relatively weak ) $US figure is going to make it look more expensive to you than it does to us over here. Think about the 'Big Mac Index' of real-world values..... *Building a facsimile of that car in the UK, at current professional labour rates and retail parts prices, would cost much more than Oakfields are asking for it. *'bringatrailer.com' don't know what they are looking at, and Oakfields don't really know what they are selling. *Oakfields need to make a living, and at least 17.5% of the sale price is Value Added Tax - which goes to the government. *The spec of the car has absolutely nothing in common with the genuine Works cars. *It's a little bit more than a seam-welded shell, a set of Webers, Lexan windows and some checker-plate. The most expensive parts of a car like this are the bits you cannot see...... *Current build spec is - I believe - aimed at MSA British Historic Rally Championship participation. Not 'FIA' Appendix K, and certainly not a current Safari type spec. A current Safari-spec car - built by one of the professionals who currently build them - would start at around double this figure. I don't personally like some of the details of the car, but it is well built and I think it represents good value for money for anybody that wants to buy a turnkey car for the MSA British championship.

But there is no "English" team at the games. Maybe you mean the British team, representing Great Britain? You might like to take that Australian TV news report with a bag of salt. I have not heard a single mention of any focus on a 'Team GB vs Australia' medal-counting sideshow here in the UK-based media, so maybe that's more of an Australian media creation than you realise? I would say that the "most important aspect" of all this for Team GB is that they have done quite well this time overall, and are looking forward to the 2012 London Olympics - where the pressure will be on them to do even better. At the close of the Beijing games, the games hosting baton will be handed over from China to Great Britain, and we hope that it doesn't get dropped - even if hosting the games looks as though it is going to bankrupt us. That's the 'story' for us.

zbane, I think that the big one is the number '65' - in very characteristic Japanese style to my English eye - if you turn it through 180 degrees.

The 2008 Beijing Olympic Stadium, nicknamed the 'Birds Nest', was designed by Swiss architects Jacques Herzog & Pierre de Meuron ( 'Herzog & de Meuron' ). I went to an exhibition of their work here in London back in 2003, and the 'Birds Nest' designs and a scale model were already on display. Not really a very good example of China's "developing" design & engineering capabilities. There might be better examples from a few years ago. Perhaps the Great Wall itself might be a good candidate.....? I heard a stupid comment on the radio the other day. London's now ex-Mayor Ken Livingstone was in Beijing, and phoned back in to a news program to tell us that "China has finally started to arrive as a world nation.....". Amazing. One of the very birthplaces of civilisation as we know it might finally be getting the nod of approval to join the 'club'.

I saw it in post #212............

I didn't make any correction. That's what is written on the document from Nissan Shatai that Kats posted a photo of in post #212. I just added some thoughts / notes on it's contents. The prefixes 'H' and 'L' are known and accepted ( as used in the 'Katashiki' of the S30-series Z ), and the 'U' suffix - in this particular case signifying 'Hokubei Shiyo', where 'Hokubei' means 'North America' - was in use by Nissan / Nissan Shatai even before the S30-series Z was prototyped, and had been used on the 510-series Bluebird project. The 'U' suffix was then used as an official marker to signify a difference in market / destination versions of a similar type. Hence we saw for example 'HLS30U' models and 'HLS30' models, and HS30U' models and 'HS30' models. There were extra suffixes ( and even extra prefixes[/i[ in the home market 'Katashiki' ) that signify further differences in model types and variants. It all becomes quite complicated when vernacular use turns into official use........ '270' was Nissan's - and specifically Nissan Shatai's - internal reference for what we know as the S30-series Z, as relating to the 'job' they were doing on it. The whole project was known as the '270' project, before being given a chassis code & variant markers, and before being given either the 'Fairlady Z', 'Fairlady Z432' or '240Z' and 'Datsun' names. You can see the '270' project code quite clearly on the documents that Kats obtained from Nissan Shatai, and posted on this thread. I would guess that there is a very good chance that this ( perhaps somewhat random? ) project number might well have inspired the '240' in '240Z', when the 'Fairlady' name was not wanted for the north American market. I could certainly imagine that Nissan Shatai's staff, as well as the design team and others involved, may well have got quite used to using the project name '270' during the design and pre-production process. Maybe some of that stuck? It is only a short step to link such a three figure number to engine capacity, and therefore to really mean something. Pure speculation on my part, but it does not seem too far-fetched. Alan T.

As a 'Super Moderator' ( whatever that is ), you could have done with posting that comment at least 24 hours before you did. Maybe your 'comedy timing' is a bit off........?

Kats, Please excuse me for cropping and highlighting a section of the document from Nissan Shatai concerning the Kojyo Shisaku and Seisan Shisaku body numbers etc, but I noticed something quite interesting...... 'Kojyo Shisaku No.02' ( HLS30-00001 ) is noted as being 'HL270' type. Obviously '270' is that internal project tag for the S30-series Zs, and we know that 'H' usually referred to a large engine capacity variant ( L24 in this case ), whilst 'L' referred to Left Hand Drive. Look down to 'Ichiji Seishi No.1' ( HLS30-00002 ) and we see that it is noted as being 'HL270U' type. I believe that the 'U' letter was consistently used ( even from early Bluebird days ) to denote North American market destination when paired with the 'L' prefix for LHD ( as opposed to the 'U' suffix used on certain RHD Export markets ). Therefore I believe HLS30-00001 and HLS30-00002 can be seen to be different market variants to eachother. I believe HLS30-00001 may very well have been a 'Euro' market specification car, and I personally believe that it might have ended up at Nissan's competition department at Oppama, where it was prepared as a test car for the Rally campaign - being equipped with various sensors and recording equipment to download data whilst being driven on rally conditions. It is a strong candidate to be the car tested by Rauno Aaltonen in January 1970 on the roads where the Monte Carlo Rallye had taken place. There is evidence to show that this car was a very early chassis number, and in order to be modified and equipped for the testing, and then shipped to the south of France in time for the testing commencing mid-January, it would have to have been so. What do you think Kats? Alan T.

What's wrong with the term "Original Style"? The factory headlamp covers were designed specifically for the S30-series Z by the team that designed the whole car, and were part of the design from quite an early stage. They were offered as an extra-cost option right from the very first sales to the general public. If that doesn't qualify the term "Original" then I don't know what does. Citing the rather obvious Jaguar E-Type is perhaps lacking something in imagination. The ridge on the early E-Type's headlamp covers makes them look quite different to those on the Z, and they look far closer to the type of headlamp trim ring seen on Italian-styled bodies made for the likes of Ferrari, Lamborghini, Abarth, Aston Martin and many others by PininFarina, Zagato, Drogo, Vignale, Michelotti et al. The team at Nissan would have been influenced by these designs just as much - if not more - than the E-Type. In fact the headlamp covers were an extra-cost optional extra, and were not included even in the 'Custom Pack' for the Z-L models. However, the kind of people paying the extra for the Z-L and 432 models were more likely to have specified the headlamp covers than those who plumped for the cheaper 'Std' model S30-S. The HS30-H Fairlady 240ZG was the only model to have it's headlamp covers as non-option standard equipment.

"Holier than thou"? You really have no idea......... So, who are these people that have "more seniority" and "greater bona fides"? As far as I'm aware, this forum has an 'Owner', some 'Moderators' ( at least one of them 'Super' ) and a bunch of 'Members'. Any seniority or bona fides amongst those 'Members' will be in your head. You surely won't be surprised to hear that I might not agree with you. "Colonials"? Really, what are you talking about? This is just garbage. It's in your head, my friend. You are making a BIG mistake. Don't lay that nonsense on me. As for this "lording" and "superior knowledge" then I honestly can't think of anything to tell you my friend. You just do not know anything about me. You might like to reflect on the fact that these are just words on a page, and that I come from a culture which is quite different to yours. You can't possibly have made an accurate judgement of my character or intentions without conversing directly with me - and you have not done that. You can also have no idea of what goes on behind a lot of the banter on this forum. You would be well advised to form your opinions about people after you know a little bit more about what has gone on in the past. As for my first post on this thread, you have COMPLETELY mis-read my intentions. I could not have been more tongue-in-cheek had I tried. The guys here were making comments that made my post an inevitable punchline to their gag. I was being light-heartedly sarcastic, if not even a little self-deprecating. If it went over your head then it can only be because you don't know me - or them - or what we are all talking about - well enough yet. "We"? Yes, you are speaking for people without their express permission. YOUR first post on this thread was nothing to do with the thread's subject, was it? So who are you speaking for now? Any "we" on this forum can only mean all of us. That includes me. Now, if you really don't like me or what I write, and you don't think you are going to change your opinion of me, then you have the luxury of being able to turn me OFF. Just look at your personal options, and put me on your 'Ignore' list. It's that simple. Alan T.

Well, what does that mean? If you have something to say, then say it. You've only been a member of this forum for a matter of a few months, so if I have managed to hurt your feelings during that time it should be a simple matter to pin down when and how, shouldn't it?

"......chose to convey it" when? Show me the thread and post, please.