HS30-H

You're going to need more than just a pinch of salt on your popcorn..... Without wishing to upset anyone, some of the statements from that article are ludicrously far-fetched, and it is peppered with mistakes and exaggerations. Doesn't anyone ever edit or critique this stuff before it goes online? The line about the "handshake deal" over sales of the Toyota 2000GT and Datsun 240Z might very well take the biscuit. Those models were hardly even on sale at the same time, let alone seriously competing with eachother in the USA market. Next instalment: 'How Mr K. invented the wheel'... ? * *Don't laugh, it's quite possible...

Chris, Maybe try clicking on the links from the original page: http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/atcars/history/20100629-OYT8T00554.htm Does that work for you? These were full-page ads, as part of the 'Your Dream Comes True' campaign for the Fairlady Zs, taken out in several Japanese Japanese newspapers ( not just the Yomiuri Shimbun ). The first was published on October 20th 1969 - just two days before the Tokyo Motor Show opened to the public. There were actually three different full-page newspaper ads, but the Yomiuri Shimbun history page only shows two of them for some reason? Great stuff, Inf. Thanks for posting! Alan T.

That's a funny looking Camaro...... Thanks Ron, Sorry to trouble you with this at a busy time. Cheers, Alan T.

The perhaps not-so "big problem" was what was originally written on the BRE website. See a quote in post #2 of this thread. See also posts #20 & 21. BRE changed the text on the rear spoiler blurb. However, they might need to change it again. According to Carl, it might be more accurate if they change the text to "..this rear spoiler was originally designed for the Chevrolet Camaro...." :classic: Ron, I think you're right. Although that ribbed rear spoiler was originally designated for the PS30-SB 'Fairlady Z432-R' ( note the 'R' ), and was initially developed and homologated by Nissan's competitions department at Oppama. It was then adopted as an option for other Z variants before launch. I think the BRE site is still somewhat confusing, and also wrong about the height issue. If you order a rear spoiler from their website today, do you receive the 'ribbed' ( 432-R ) type, or the later, taller, non-ribbed type - as per the old Interpart catalog? They appear to illustrate the 'ribbed' version...... Alan T.

Wrong, Carl. Nissan did have their own full-size wind tunnel at their Chuo Kenkyujo facility. They also contributed to the building and running costs of the university wind tunnel you mention, as this kind of philanthropy would help to produce graduates who were skilled in the use of such facilities before joining the Nissan workforce. It's all written up in Nissan's 1964-1973 ten-year report book, including the financial reports. Alan T.

Now Carl, you know what I'm talking about here. I'm not talking about the theory and concept of rear spoilers in general ( of course not ), I'm talking about the size, shape and fitment of that particular rear spoiler, and I'm quite sure you know that. I look forward to seeing you apply the same kind of warped semantics to the rest of the car. When you meet up with Yoshihiko Matsuo next week, you'll be telling him that his title of 'Chief Designer' on the 'Maru Z' project was false, as nothing on the car had been 'designed' first by Nissan. Here's some advice: Don't. It's going to sound a little silly..... I see we are back "here in the U.S." again, and the rest of the automotive world is playing catch-up. After all, your President claims that the USA is "...the nation that invented the automobile..." So whilst we have your attention, perhaps you'd like to comment on the claims made in this thread that both Pete Brock and Carroll Shelby had design and/or engineering input on the S30-series Z before launch? If I popped up and claimed that Mike Costin and Colin Chapman had contributed to the design process, I'm sure I'd be inundated with requests to both prove and quantify it. Shelby ( ) and Brock perhaps sound a little bit more likely as candidates to you, I guess? After all, those 'Japs' just copy everything, don't they? Especially when they are designing an "American Car, Made In Japan"....... Or is it just a matter of semantics....? Alan T.

gnosez, I'm fairly sure that one was a purely American design. Certainly not a 'factory' / Sports Option part in Japan as far as I'm aware. By late 1972, the Nissan works race cars in Japan were using the big three-piece rear spoilers, like this:

You're right, Mike. They've changed it. In reaction to this thread, no doubt. They illustrate the ribbed rear spoiler ( as seen on - for example - the original #46 BRE race car ) but I believe I'm right in saying that the taller rear spoiler was later, and was not ribbed. It was sold with Interpart no.2701010 in the later ( early 1973 ) Interpart catalog. Does anyone ( Ron Carter? ) know for sure that the ribbed rear spoiler seen on the #46 car was actually taller than the factory 432-R rear spoiler? They look the same to me, whilst the later ( smooth ) Interpart rear spoiler does look taller than the later - factory - unribbed rear spoiler. Open question: So which rear spoiler are they putting back into production? The ribbed one, or the ( taller? ) smooth one? Alan T.

moonpup, You're making this thread all about me. Have you got anything to add to the subject that's being discussed, or are you so fixated with my scent that you can't see anything else? Where's the "Laidback purist" that you portray yourself as, and where is your sense of humour ( oh sorry, 'humor' )? Sprinkle a few morsels of conjecture / opinion / evidence in amongst your contributions occasionally, for crying out loud. All I ever see you posting are ebay links and comments about what I'm saying or doing. Post something worth reading, worth some discussion. Where's the content? Got any evidence of Carroll Shelby / Pete Brock input on the design and engineering of Nissan's S30-series Z car? Anything.....? Alan T.

I'm not 'attacking' anyone, let alone you. The people who have something to sell are BRE, and they are the ones claiming that Pete Brock designed that rear spoiler. I don't believe that he did. It's all quite simple. This is a Forum, yes? Please can you tell me the titles of these books, as I would like to read them too? Authors? Publishers? Any clues at all? I feel like I've missed out. I've read - and heard - plenty of stories about the S30-series Z, but proof of Carroll Shelby's involvement is one I can't remember. As I said above, I'm not "on the attack". I think we can pride ourselves on this forum for trying to see through the fog and get down to the truth about these cars and matters historical, so stories which I personally believe to be apocryphal written on a website which is selling something ( BRE ) are certainly within our range and collective remit. If they are true, then they'll hold water. If they are not, then we are all the better for it ( I believe ). Your first reply to me quite obviously misunderstood my initial points ( I wasn't talking about the 'Spook', and this is nothing to do with 'Europe' ), so what I am supposed to say? If you're looking for an example of a personal attack post, take a peep at post #10 ( but mind you don't slip on the vomit ). Apologies if I come across to you in a way that you don't like, but I assure you that is not the intention. I'm just interested in the facts. Alan T.

Maybe because they have something to sell, and I don't. In this particular case ( the rear spoiler ), I believe the 'evidence' quite clearly contradicts BRE's claim. If we are to believe that Pete Brock designed the rear spoiler seen on the Fairlady Z432-R at launch ( I remind you, in November 1969 ) then there's a whole BIG story out there that has so far not been told. It would involve Brock working with Nissan's engineers in Japan many months before November 1969, and almost nobody knowing about it. Or perhaps you believe he sketched it out on a napkin and posted it to Nissan by Air Mail ( after all, Pinin Farina, Yutaka Katayama and Walt Disney 'designed' the whole car after lunch in 1967 - so why not? That Farina guy could even design cars whilst he was dead )? Call me a cynical old fella, but I think - if Brock had been designing for Nissan - then the BRE publicity machine might have made a little more mileage out of it all. Meanwhile, back in the real world, I don't believe Pete Brock actually even saw an S30-series Z car until October 1969 at the earliest. You believe Brock designed that rear spoiler, I take it? Or perhaps you haven't 'come to a view' about that yet. Maybe you'll put some thought into the subject now that you've pointed out my personality defect ( again ) Nice to see that I'm still not on your ignore list, too Alan T.

No disrespect to you, but it might take a little bit more in the way of proof to convince me. Nissan had their own stylists, designers and engineers at the time we are talking about. They even had their own wind tunnel. They were quite capable of designing that rear spoiler themselves, and I believe that they did. Which 'performance shops' in the USA had some input into the S30-series Z's concept, design and/or engineering before it was launched in November 1969? What did Carroll Shelby have to do with the car? Sorry, but I think much of what we are hearing is just the echoing of past lies ( read: advertising and PR ), still bouncing around long after they were first uttered. These days - forty years later - we should be a little less gullible. Talking of forty years later, I'd expect those "original" moulds to be a little er, fragile by now too...... Alan T.

I'm not talking about Europe, I'm talking about Japan. I'm not talking about the BRE 'Spook' ( that's a well-documented BRE creation ), I'm talking about the rear spoiler. Well, given the fact that an identical twin-ribbed rear spoiler was seen on the debut of the Nissan Fairlady Z432-R model shown at the Press Preview event at Nissan's head office in Ginza, Tokyo on October 18th 1969, and assuming that it would have needed to have been designed, tested, productionised and produced some weeks or even months before that, I'd say it was a fairly good bet that BRE had nothing to do with it. I believe that what's being called the first 'BRE rear spoiler' for the Z was actually the rear spoiler that was fitted to the 432-R as standard equipment, and was an optional accessory on the other models. Later on, I believe BRE made their own unique moulding which looked similar to the later ( non-ribbed ) factory rear spoiler. But the ribbed rear spoiler was a Nissan factory designed and produced item. Alan T.

Yeah, right.... With all the talent, history and kudos behind BRE, why do they feel it necessary to come out with such blatant nonsense? Does Pete Brock actually check the sales blurbs on his site, or is it just written by minions who don't know the truth? BRE don't actually need to lie about things like this.

One thing I think worth making clear is the timeline involved in this particular car's case: The 're-shell' which resulted in the car as it stands now took place in the middle of 1974! We are not talking about something that happened long after the career of a race car finished, and the greater part of the 'Big Sam' story is in the car's current bodyshell. Interestingly ( and perhaps somewhat unusually! ) no attempt to change or obscure the chassis number and 'identity' of the 'shell was made either in period or subsequently. And mercifully, there's been no miraculous 'resurrection' of the previous 'shells as yet, although there must have been some people in the past who were tempted..... Alan T.

Great video, Ron. Congrats! The car looks stunning on the move. Can I ask: Is there anything on the car that you think isn't representative of the original '46' BRE car? Anything that you couldn't accurately replicate, or were not allowed to replicate ( EG due to modern safety regulations, etc )? Anything you'd ideally like to change? Any missing parts you'd like to find? After seeing the video, I'm wondering about springing & damping too. Does your car have similar spring / damper / ARB rates to those on the original car? Cheers, Alan T.

Craig, I think your original post made a very good point, and deserved a reply. It's a subject that a few people over here are talking about now that the car has come up for sale. I think there's little doubt that the major part of 'Big Sam's' history is with the 'shell that it's in now. This is the 'shell that won the Modsports championship and everything that came after that. It also happens to have been an ex-Works rally car ( with it's own interesting history, including a connection to the 1973 Monte Carlo Rallye, the 1973 Scottish Rally, the 1973 Burmah Rally and some other notable events here in the UK ) which is an interesting side-story. Getting too fixated on the re-shell ( re-shells! ) is to miss point - this iteration of the car is arguably its most successful, and this iteration is 'Big Sam'. A few years ago, Bonhams sold a couple of cars that were described as genuine ex-Works rally 240Zs. In fact they had both been re-shelled, and the replacement 'shells were standard road cars - one a Fairlady Z-L, and one a UK market 240Z. As the original rally cars were both 1970-built lightweights ( proper PZR style bodies, with all the FRP and Plexiglass ) this was a case of like not being replaced with like, and it amounted to a conglomeration of some ex-Works parts being attached to a pair of standard road cars. The baby was thrown out with the bathwater, so to speak. That's clearly not the case with 'Big Sam'.... Bonhams have given 'Big Sam' an estimate of £40,00 to £60,000 GBP, which I think - if we were to compare it to other marques and models with a similar level of history - is decidedly conservative. Alan T.

It's an interesting question, and brings us to the concept of what is now known as 'Continuous History'.... The story of 'Big Sam' includes three bodyshells if we include the identity of the ex-Rob Grant race car ( what I have been calling 'Big Sam Version 1' for a while now ) and the fact that this itself was a re-shell. We can draw a continuous line from the very first Rob Grant race car - which was based on a 1970 RHD ex-Works rally car - through the second Rob Grant race car ( a re-shell following a major crash ) which also used a 1970 RHD ex-Works rally 'shell. This became the first 'Big Sam' ( not much more than a re-paint and some signwriting at first ), which was comprehensively crashed mid-season - requiring yet another bodyshell. The replacement bodyshell used was from a 1972 LHD ex-Works rally car, which itself needed not a little straightening and conversion from LHD to RHD. I call the result - the car that is being sold by Bonhams - 'Big Sam Version 2'. Anybody who fells a little confused at this point has my sympathy.... So, no less than three bodyshells ( all of them ex-Works rally car bodyshells, but the first two being arguably a little more special than the third ) converge into the 'Big Sam' story. Some of the components from the first and second are incorporated in the third. Anyone who buys 'Big Sam' as it is now is also buying that 'Continuous History', but would probably be well advised to concentrate on what the car is now rather than all the other stuff. The world of old racing cars is quite familiar with such questions of new chassis, new body, old identity and the cans of worms therein. It becomes a question of philosophy in the end. The car as it stands now is eligible for competition in more than one race series, and it would be great to see it rubbing shoulders with it's contemporaries again. It's a great package. Alan T.

Just a quick heads-up on a forthcoming event here in the UK: 'Big Sam' - the Datsun 240Z race car of some repute - has been entered into the Bonhams auction at the Silverstone Classic meeting ( http://www.silverstoneclassic.com/ ), to be held on Saturday 24th July 2010. Attached below are some scans of the auction catalogue. I'll let the catalogue description of the car speak for itself. It's a very interesting car, with a fairly complicated history. It will be interesting to see what price it sells for.... Cheers, Alan T.

Come on Rick, no point in writing that here and then not mentioning what those 2 or 3 corrections would be. Yutaka Katayama is a great man, but what exactly would you thank him for, Rick? He didn't conceive the idea of a replacement / successor to the SP/SR Fairlady line, he didn't style, design or engineer the S30-series Z, and - arguably - it pretty much could have sold itself at the time it was released ( being lucky enough to have been born into a boom time ). Katayama was a cog in a very large machine. Making him 'King Cog' only serves to demote others, and cast long shadows. He was - above all - a salesman. I would say that one of his biggest successes has been selling the concept of 'Mr K.'.... I think you might have a few of your wires crossed here.... First of all, Toyo Kogyo ( Mazda ) acquired their rights to the Rotary Engine from NSU in July 1961. Secondly, their 'Project X605' ( which became the 'RX7' ) began in May 1976. The 'RX-7' officially went on sale in March 1978. Maybe you are thinking of any number of Mazda concept cars ( RX-500, X020A/Z, X110, X020G ) that never reached production? Whatever way you look at it, the S30-series Z must have been one of Mazda's reference points when they were working on the X605. The RX7 certainly wasn't anything like a 'copy' of the Z, anyway. Alan T.

Sorry to catch you at a busy time, Carl. And Rome is crazy at this time of year. She's going to see crowds.... I'd love to see one of those invites. So it was 'official' ( at least according to the PR firm ), but still inaccurate. You take my point? This was not The International Preview, was it? If anything, this was the USA / North American Press Preview. As mentioned before, the whole at-launch S30-series range ( including an LHD Export market Datsun 240Z ) had been seen at Nissan's 'Press Preview' event in Japan on 18th October, and then - open to the general public remember - at the Tokyo Motor Show from 24th October. Both were international events by their very nature. I understand the use of Press Packs etc ( even own a few souvenirs of these myself ) but my point was that the considerable effort in putting on these one day New York and Los Angeles events seems to have generated relatively little bang for its buck. Certainly little to justify its claim as being the 'International Preview'. As far as I can tell - and I have a lot of Japanese literature from the period - it seems not to have been mentioned in the Japanese press, where you might expect it to have generated some interest ( had they known about it in advance..... ). In contrast they covered just about every major auto show in the world, in considerable depth, at the time. It seems to me to have been more to do with NMC USA than NMC Japan - although it would of course have needed a certain amount of blessing from NMC Japan. I don't think we are hearing the full back-story here. That "out of respect for Detroit" quote doesn't seem to bear much scrutiny either. It'd be worth digging a little deeper to find out whether Katayama thought the timing of the Tokyo show was stealing his thunder, and the NY and LA hotel events were at least partly in response to this, considering the poor timing of the major North American market shows. That can't be correct. Nissan's stand at the '69 Tokyo Motor Show was huge ( you've seen the pictures, right? ), the event lasting many days, and with 1.5 million visitors through the doors. No comparison. Quite extraordinary. Makes me think of a surfer not realising that he had a tidal wave coming up behind him, or the recording industry guys who turned down The Beatles. Did he not notice the ( 'Fairlady Z Export Model' ) LHD Datsun 240Z on the Nissan stand? Maybe he spent a little too long in the Bar? I'm convinced that there's more to all this than we currently know. Cheers, Alan T.

OK, I'll try to simplify this a little for you in an effort to elicit a response: *Where did the words "International Preview of the Datsun 240Z" come from? Are they quoted from the NY Times article, are they quoted from a Nissan ( or NMC USA ) document, or are they simply yours? *Did any press coverage from these New York and Los Angeles hotel 'trunk shows' use a photo of the car which was actually taken at the hotel? *The dates of these New York and Los Angeles one-day events seem to have been timed ( almost ) to correspond with the events going on in Japan, but they seem rather ad hoc in comparison. There's obviously a back-story here, but it is being ignored. You don't have any thoughts on that? Anybody care to comment? Nature abhors a vacuum. Alan T.

Carl, I'd like to query some of the above. First of all, Nissan Motors Japan held their first 'Press Preview' of the new S30-series Z range in Japan on 18th October 1969. At least one Export Model LHD 'Datsun 240Z' was present too. Considering the fact that this was intended strictly for the 'Press' ( ie - not open to the general public ), would it not be fair to call the description of the event at the Pierre Hotel in New York ( on 22nd October ) something rather less grand than the "International Preview" of the Datsun 240Z, and point out that this too was aimed only at the Press? If it was for the general public, then it wasn't anything more than a local 'Preview', and if it was only for the Press, then it was too late to call it the "International Preview" anyway. I think those dates are significant. The 1969 Detroit Auto Show was held from 30th November to 8th December, whilst the Tokyo Auto Show was several weeks earlier - starting on 24th October. Mr Dunn may very well claim that the decision not to debut the new model in Detroit was out of "respect" ( although it'd make me wonder what car shows are actually for, and whether Nissan showed anything else at the '69 Detroit Show? ) but it looks to me as though the NY and LA hotel events were all rather last minute, arguably organised in reaction to what was going on in Japan, and also arguably looking all a little bit last-minute, despite Mr Dunn's apparent claims that it was all organised "weeks in advance" ( I'd have expected several months, but that's just me )... And considering the lengths that were gone to ( flying a single car into both NY and LA, and then flying the press in from Detroit...?! ) I think it all got precious little coverage in the "International" motoring press. So isn't it actually the case that the Pierre Hotel event wasn't "The International Preview" of the Nissan S30-series Z range or the 'Datsun 240Z', and that any such grand title would go to either the Japanese 'Press Preview' day ( on 18th October ) or the opening of the Tokyo Motor Show to the general public ( on 24th October )? I'd say that the whole thing smacks of Yutaka Katayama - in a fairly typical example of the tail trying to wag the dog - making a concerted effort not to be 'outdone' by the men in black hats back in Ginza. But again, I guess that's just me. :classic: Alan T.

Dear Mr Moonpup, Είστε το πίσω τέλος ενός αλόγου! And here's a little souvenir of the real "#13" for you. You have my permission to use it as your screensaver. Enjoy! Έχετε μια συμπαθητική ημέρα! Alan T.

Go on then, care less. Go on then. Oh, hang on - you're just saying theoretically, right? OK, I get it.... But seriously, are you sure you're commenting on the right thread ( or on the right car? )? I think the general concensus here so far has been that the car is not all that attractive a proposition except for its ( relatively ) low body serial number. I don't think anyone's hyping it up as the best thing since sliced bread, or telling us that it's a copper-bottomed negative-equity beating 'investment'. Well, not too many people turned them into race cars in 1969 ( unless you know better? ), but the cars that have been race cars for most of their lives are now some of the most sought-after of S30-series Z cars. Rather than 'scolding' the owners / builders, I think most of us would pat them on the back and congratulate them. I for one would always be drawn to the scruffy old race car rather than the 'Concours' stock car standing next to it. There's an interesting period race car coming up for auction here in England next month, and the auction house have put an estimate of £40,000 to £60,000 ( that's roughly $60,000 to $90,000 US at the moment ) and some are saying that it's actually pretty 'cheap' if it goes for that kind of money. It'll be interesting to see what it gets knocked down for. You can't buy the kind of history that this car has all that often.... The slightly strange thing at the moment is that these cars are fetching quite a lot less than some of their contemporaries. 26th-Z commented a few days ago that they are hugely cheaper than most of the 'Big' Healeys, and cars that are considered mechanically and/or cosmetically 'inferior' are worth more. I guess it might have something to do with the perception that tens of thousands of them survive. Is the S30-series Z a victim of its own commercial success? As for 'customising' or modifying the cars, in my experience the same kind of rivet-counting and pecking orders exist in those circles as they do in 'stock' or 'collector' car circles. If your car doesn't have the 'right' parts on it, if it wasn't engineered or built well, or - horror of horrors - it doesn't even look good, then it's going to be considered lower down in the pecking order - and therefore worth less - than one that has and does. Same thing as all big boy's toys, in fact. Sorry to disappoint you, but I don't think you're going to give anyone here heart failure if you were to buy "#400 Z" ( ) and "throw" a turbo or LSX engine in there. In fact, you might find that some so-called 'collectors' would be quite happy to see another possible competitor in their game of Low-VIN Bingo elimininated....... Alan T.