where to start?

[Jetaway]

Slight,

Welcome to the club (almost). Sound advice above, a couple of generalizations here:

The basic mechanicals of Z's are fairly straight forward and they are built, very well built. Maintenance items, say spark plugs through wheel bearings, are probably available in your city. Common to other cars of the era, mid run (say 60,000 -- 100,000 miles) maintenance/repair items such as alternators and radiators are at most a two-day delivery from a local's warehouse and reasonably priced. These are widely available mail order, possibly a little cheaper on price, but by the time shipping is figured in, buying local is competitive or a bit cheaper. More longer-term or esoteric items: engine / transmission parts (e.g., valves, brake power assist hose and fittings, etc.) will be difficult to impossible to find locally, but are readily available by mail.

The price of mechanical parts will run a bit more than those used across multiple models and years from the Big 3 but less, often much less, than from more exotic makes. Sometimes the parts are drop-dead cheap -- I got rebuilt calipers, locally and in stock no less, for $33.00 and a strong, new, Bosch starter for $65.00.

Trim items, especially badges, are not only expensive in absolute terms (What do you think seven new badges for a 240Z would run? I'm thinking you'd feel fortunate to get change back from a $500 bill.) and insane from a price/performance view.

The interior can add up quickly. Mine had a freshly installed, complete (dashboard to carpeting and all points in-between), all non-OEM interior when I bought it. I'm guessing around $700 and I don't care for the seats much at all. OEM or OEM quality parts -- boy, I wouldn't doubt you could spend twice, if not more for new parts. If you get lucky with some good used parts, fill in with non-OEM parts, maybe $400. But the interior may not be that important to you -- or you could care less if there is no carpeting in the hatch, but insist on uncracked seats, or other combinations, you may get by with spending nothing or next to nothing.

Sheet metal / exterior is a mixed bag. If you have patience, you'll eventually come across just about anything you may need. But the paint won't match the rest of the car. But since you are a student, feel free to get away with a primer grey / dark blue / canary yellow ride. Rust always sucks, but may not be avoidable in your area.

Spending 7 - 8 grand, even 12 grand won't guarantee no problems. Z's are 40 year old and counting cars, from an era, that even though I love them, simply don't last as long, as easily, as do today's cars. To keep the cost of maintenance and repair anywhere near affordable, you'll have to do, or learn how to do most of your work yourself. Besides, most garages don't have a freakin' clue how to fix older cars and a lot of the problems or annoying but not immediately needed to be repaired things that develop can only be solved by patient trouble-shooting -- which garages are unlikely to do or, if they do, run up eight, ten, twelve hours of labor charges.

I bought my Z two and a half years ago. The last time I did any semi-serious work on a car was a good thirty years in the past. Heck, I stopped changing my own oil fifteen years ago. I've taken my Z to a garage three times:

1) Right after I bought it to have the carbs adjusted. I have nothing put praise for the garage for the work he's done on my 2001 vehicle, but as for the Z, never again, never again.

2) Installation of a MotorSports exhaust system. Damn things are more difficult than you expect and working under a Z isn't always a lot of fun.

3) Resurfacing the rotors. I brought the rotors in, they resurfaced, I reinstalled.

If I described what I've done to the car since, it would double the length of this already lengthy post.

What eight to twelve grand will, or should get you is: a straight car; with little rust (relative to others in your area); most or all of the badges; paint that will look pretty good, at least from ten feet away, after one or two good polish/wax cycles; an interior you don't have to make up some story about for a date; starts readily; doesn't run badly and; doesn't kill all the mosquitos in a two block area when you hammer it.

Avoid the real fixer-uppers, especially those requiring body work, or those that "just need a tune-up." Ask yourself, if $30 worth of parts would transform an evil-running beast into a smooth running angel, why didn't the owner spend the $30? Because they like to drive an evil-running beast? Not likely.

As a general pricing rule, find the lowest priced running, even badly running and the highest, or definitely near the top of the market Z in your area, calculate the difference in price, take 1/3rd of the difference and add it to the lowest priced runner. Going from your post, that price is about the lowest you should expect to pay for something you'll be happy with. At the lower end, yes you'll have to do more immediate to first month repairs than at the higher end, and more for the first year or so, but after that they would both require about the same amount of maintenance and repair. Set aside about $500 for first month parts (assuming you'll tackle it yourself). You probably won't use all, or even most of it, but nothing is more maddening than having a 'new' car and not being able to drive it until payday or two paydays because you are $20 short of what you need for a new radiator or brake pads or whatevers.

Now I understand why some people call me wordy.

Personally, I would run away from a car like the one you linked to. It may not have freaked you, but installing 240Z springs to lower a 280Z sounds like a bad idea to me. A 240 weighs, what 300 -- 400 lbs less than a 280? So he gets a lower ride by forcing the softer springs to ride with more compression than they were designed to do? That's gotta be good for ride quality, not to mention suspension travel. Even setting that aside, you'll have fun enough figuring out what is what and how it comes apart using manuals designed for cars as they come from the factory, not customized parts that may or may not have readily available documentation. Finally: ((Lots of performance modifications) + (needs considerable body work)) X (Price on the low side) = Beaten to Hell.

It may well be quick. For a week. But no fun after that.

Best of Luck!

Chris

[Slight]

wow, thanks again guys! lots of things to take into consideration. I'm so glad I found this community here,

and I agree Chris, that 280 is ... kind of scary heh..

mm so i was talking with a bud i know, and he's a 240sx enthusiast.. but he advised me to work my way up.. that a 240sx would be a better starting place.

and I guess my opinion is that if i'm going to invest my time, it might as well be on the car that I wanted in the first place. although I know finding a clean 240sx would be a lot easier...

what are your thoughts? is there a way to ease one's self into learning the mechanics and such that comes with maintaining a older car like a 240z?

[Threehz]

I want to say that the under the hood of a 240sx is more complicated then an old Z car in fact. The old Z's are REALLY simple. My 280Z with EFI is about the most complicated of the classics and it really is a piece of cake to work on. Like I said, four months ago when I got my Z I really honestly was ashamed of how little car knowledge I had.

ALSO, I don't know how much easier it would be to find a "clean" 240sx. 240sx's are one of the most modded, abused and just all around messed with cars there are. Now I love 240sx's they are great little cars but I've been looking for a clean one for about two months now and have only found one that was even close to stock and not "ruined". (and the price tag was marked up VERY accordingly)

Let me ask you, what kind of mechanical knowledge do you have?

(I don't know if I've made it clear enough how little I knew mechanically when I got my Z. I had never done an oil change in my life. Now I feel 100% confident to rebuild my Z's L28 by myself.)

I say find the right Z, there is information EVERYWHERE and it is very easy to learn how to work on these cars, there are a number of manuals, an FSM will be very helpful, and ANYTHING you need help with, the great people on this forum can help you (not to mention endless numbers of threads on this and other Z sites about how to do certain things)

Plus when you smoke your 240sx bud with your Z it'll feel that much better haha

EDIT.

I wanna add this in aswell

early Z's 1969-1978

240sx debuted in 1989, eleven years later.

Mechanical Complexity of Vehicals Graph

1969--------------------------------------------------Now

=============================================>

Simpler---------------------------------------More Complex

Hope that helps out too ha

Edited October 2, 2011 by Threehz

[Slight]

thanks Threehz,

very encouraging... I did suspect that my friend was wrong in stating that a new car would be less complex.

i think he was probably thinking along the lines of tuning a car without EFI.

As for myself, yeah changing the oil would probably be the extent of my experience; ive done a few odd jobs around the shop ( i work as a detailer at Nissan)

but other than that i'm fresh.

I hoping a Z will be my first car, I was originally thinking i'd get a 240sx from Phoenix area ( i have a cousin who has a customs shop, he's into the whole drift scene) but i can't shake the idea of owning a classic 240z, especially if it's a car that is simple enough to learn from.

nice graph haha, what does FSM stand for?

[Threehz]

You have a cousin in Phx this whole time! I watch the Phoenix craigslist pretty consistently for Z's along with 240sx's and other cars and let me tell you, some of the most rust-free Z cars are from down here.

FSM is Factory Service Manual which you can download for free from Xenon's site (I don't know the link but it is all over), it is Nissan's factory manual for every aspect of the Z. It is by no means a perfect step by step guide, but very helpful. I also bought How to Restore Your Datsun Z Car along with How to Rebuild Your Nissan L-Series Engine. Those were both pretty invaluable when I removed my engine (and everything in the engine bay) and in doing that I learned what every single item and line under my hood is for the most part.

I'm thinking that if you were to get a 240sx you would like it, probably love it, but forever crave a Z. Just my 2 cents

[Slight]

hehe yeah, i just noticed you're from Tucson yourself. I was thinking it would be a good excuse to travel down if I bought a Z in that area

I do like the idea of knowing my car inside and out, i'd like to start to learn how to diagnose and fix. and I agree, If I got a 240sx... I have ideas of what I'd do with one, but i think id always want to experience the s30..

I was wondering what about the different generations of the s30.

the 240, 260, and the 280...

are there aspects of the new models that would be better? maybe it would wiser to be looking for a 280?

although.. finding a clean car in any of those models would probably be the first thing.

[Threehz]

http://www.zcca.org/zhistory.htm is a good little history and documents changes in model years.

The 240Z is very popular for a lot of reasons, one big one being that it is the lightest weight wise and has the least extra "stuff" on it, making it ideal for race modding. Of course another big reason is that it is the original Z. I'm no expert but I believe if you want a 240 the 69-72 are the best years, one big factor being the SU Carbs (this is off the top of my head but I think that is right) and some other body features I think.

260 obviously has a bigger engine stock but I can't say much about other performance gains, only because I don't know but it might?

The 280 sees the introduction of fuel injection which can be seen as a very nice pro. There is also the fact that 77 and later 280's have the possibility of the 5 speed transmission (however this is not a super sporty transmission). The large bumpers are a downside performance wise but some like the looks and they definitely do provide a little extra protection.

I'm no expert though, I'll be the first to admit that. One thing you might want to keep in mind is that finding a 240 in good condition will be a lot harder AND pricier then finding a 280 in good condition.

You know actual body style may also be one thing to keep in mind, because you can always engine swap a larger engine into a 240 if you love the original look.

Anyhow hope the search is going well my friend!

[Slight]

is something like this pretty legit?

http://www.datsunclassifieds.com/showproduct.php/product/6336/title/1972-240z-great-condition/cat/1

[Threehz]

Sounds like a pretty good deal to me, running, seems to be in pretty good condition. If those rust spots were the only ones on the whole vehicle that would be pretty awesome however rust spots like that might mean more underneath or around that area. Also I'd definitely want to thoroughly investigate that rust down by the frame rail.

It's all about what you want man, then when you find what you want it's about making damn sure the body is in good shape and there's nothing seriously wrong.

[Jetaway]

Threehz seems to have it right by me. You'd certainly want to investigate the rust further, and search around for info. on common rust problem areas on 240Z as well. Interior looks good, suspect the paint looks better in picture than in person, but at least I don't think you are paying anything for it. Looks like the same non-OEM dash cap that I have, but I'd rather keep my child than trade him for a OEM one. The center vent even seems to have the same weird green stuff than mine had. If nothing else, you might want to download and save the ad because it seems to be an example of a typical "decent" condition car selling for a fair price.

Regarding the models: 240Zs command a premium, not huge, but a premium, if for no other reason than it is the original model. 280Zs have their adherents because with the larger motor, now old enough to be past smog requirements and hence modifiable, they can be as flat-out as quick as the 240 and, I have to admit, safer because of a heavier frame along with some Federally required safety features. A bit more recognizably modern too. The 240Zs, in many ways are closer to 1950s design while the 280Zs are closer to 1980s practices (ammeter rather than voltage, cable ventilation controls rather than vacuum operated, fixed vs.retractable seat belts, carbs vs. FI). I think some are simply a bit more comfortable with the newer designs. Myself -- don't care. Well, four years ago I would have said Fuel Injection rules! Still does, but after reading threads on doping out FI problems, I find myself relieved that I only have to deal with two tricky carbs. No one likes the 260Zs in America. (The 280Z was never sold outside the U.S.). Which could work to your advantage. Stick with the coupe to save weight, get it as tuned as possible and when you graduate and get a job, drop a Chevy 350 in it. Seriously, if I had bought a 260z, it would be Chevy powered by now.

Chris

[Jetaway]

[Edits]

260 obviously has a bigger engine stock but I can't say much about other performance gains, only because I don't know but it might?

You know actual body style may also be one thing to keep in mind, because you can always engine swap a larger engine into a 240 if you love the original look.

1) Horsepower fell from 150 in the 240 to a low of 129 with the 260 in the U.S. because of emission controls and also picked up a couple 100 pounds, much of it concentrated at the ends of the car. Made in sluggish both in a straight line and in the corners.

2) GASP! Just kidding -- as I've been known to say: It's my damn car. And an desmogged 280 dropped into a 240 has, with good reason, enthusiastic adherents.

There was something else from your post. Oh, yeah. While Z's and ZX's share not a whit of sheet metal, brakes, suspension, etc., the engine, tranny, and with some work, I understand, differential, are swappable. You'll find a lot of 240s, which like mine, had a 280ZX 5-spd installed at same point in the past. And an electronic ignition from either of the 280s or an after-market one.

Chris

[Slight]

mm, yeah at the very least it's a good example, thanks guys for filling me in on this, it's some interesting stuff. I'll have to keep my eye out and look over cars with the usual rust spots/areas. I'm wondering in that sense.. what would be the "limit" in terms of rust on a car..

I'm just thinking if I come across a car like the one linked, or similar.. when is it just too much to warrant the work involved?

On another note, I definitely see how the 240s can require a premium, and I think the body styling .. is more attractive on the 240.

thanks again for the help!