Paulytunes

9 hours ago, psdenno said:

In case you do eventually get a driverless car for your wife and daughter, you might want to start learning Lidar repair skills if you plan on maintaining it yourself.  Not much will be owner serviceable in the future.

Not much with new cars now is serviceable.  With all the integrated infotainment and computer systems that look like slapped on iPads, there's no easy way to even upgrade the stereo anymore if you want better sound or other media features.  And when you have to remove a lot of plastic nonsense to even get to the serviceable engine parts and need special tools to do any work, why would you want to?    

Unfortunately, this is the future I think we are heading towards.  To that I say they will have to pry my steering wheel out of my cold, dead hands.  I enjoy driving, even in traffic, far too much to give it up, much less to an automated machine.  It's only a matter of time before they become self aware and determine our fate in a microsecond.  Of course, I also hate the digital dashboards, touchscreens, and all the driving nannies that most modern cars come with now.  I guess I'm getting old. 

But, I am likely in the shrinking minority.  I think my wife and daughter would welcome being chauffeured around by AI, I'm holding out hope that my son inherited the driving pleasure gene from me.  That's what I got my 280Z for, to pass on my knowledge and passions to him.    

10 minutes ago, rturbo 930 said:

They are not the same. The rails won't fit. The toe board might fit on the driver's side with some work, not sure about the passenger side, the floor steps down on one side of the rail. Your car being a 2+2 will only complicate matters, although if you're only doing the front footwell area it may not be a problem. You will need to find the appropriate 280Z equivalent parts, or learn how to shape metal. I would also consider patching instead of replacing, from the photos the full extent of the damage doesn't seem to be revealed, it may or may not warrant full replacement. Get all the tar off the floor before making that call. 

I sort of suspected that there may be a difference.  Nissan seemed to like to change parts in some cases almost yearly.  I found that out the hard way with my 1983 810/Maxima. 

I'll keep at removing the tar and the repairs to get a full assessment of the damage.  I did pull out the rear seats, and everything to the rear of the first front seat rail appears to be solid and in good shape.  I guess I won't fully know until I pull up all the tar though.    

12 hours ago, Patcon said:

Well let's start with the car is 50 years old. If you treated it as a cheap car and drove it in all sorts of weather, your repair aught to last another 50. If you properly prime your repairs and avoid salted roads I expect your repairs will last 100 or so years. I suspect at that point there will be other challenges to operating your 150+ year old ICE car on public roads. Provided you're still here. 😉

Point taken.  I guess I tend to forget just how old these cars have become and how old I am getting.  My intent is to drive the car and enjoy it but treat it as a classic.  I always keep it in the garage, avoid bad weather whenever possible, and not to drive when there is a threat of snow and MDOT pretreats the roads with copious amounts of road salt and other chemicals. 

13 hours ago, grannyknot said:

Hey, they make just the toe board so you may not need that entire piece that I linked to above,https://kfvintagejdm.com/shop/datsun/toe-board-left-side-datsun-240z/

With the new floor pans you order you will also need the bottom rails as they look like they are shot too, https://kfvintagejdm.com/shop/datsun/utv-sprocket/

Thanks, it's nice to know that all these parts are available.  I guess what I will need depends on the extent of the rust, so I guess I really do need to keep removing the previous repairs and find out where the rust ends and the good metal begins.  Hopefully, I don't end up with an undrivable Flintstones cruiser.  It's odd that one of the POs would drill an extra drain hole, I don't understand why they would do that.  I did notice some of the parts you referenced were for the 240Z - I assume they were the same for the all the S30 models?  Mechanically, I have run into differences between model year 280Zs on certain parts.   

So I made a little more progress today and found more coffee can bottoms.  It's clear that the more I chip away, the more suspect repairs I am finding.  I'm scared to rip out whatever is inserted into the passenger side frame rail, which appears to be some sort of rubber strip and long pieces of metal, held together with Bondo or something else.  Looks like whichever PO did this repair decided that no welding was the way to go.  Searching on YouTube for non-welding floor pan repair also yielded lots of other interesting results, although I have yet to see someone recommending coffee cans or a similar circumstance to my repair.  

I am also struggling a bit with looking at images of the floor pans in Grannyknot's link and other ones on Amazon, eBay, Z Car Depot, and Motorsport Auto and comparing them to my floors.  It looks like the drain pan holes are in the wrong places.  I assume that the end that bends up is the front, and would replace where the second coffee can bottom is on the passenger side photo at the top of the image.  Is that correct?  

I guess the other question that I have is what can I do from prevent this from happening again once the rusty metal is replaced with all new sheet metal?  Is the root cause of the rust years of rainwater getting into a body seam, weep holes getting clogged with debris, water pooling and eventually causing rust formation?  Is the best and only preventative measure to avoid any precipitation and keep the Z in the garage, or is there something else I should be doing to eliminate the source of water infiltration?  

Those look great!  I may just have to get myself a pair.

What it looked like before I started digging and realized something was amiss:

I was looking for this thread.  When I pulled the carpet to look at my floors, I found some evidence of rust.  On the driver side, on the exterior underside, one of the PO's screwed a square piece of aluminum into the underside of the floor pan to cover up a rust hole.  On the passenger side, presumably that same PO filled the rust gaps (where the floor pan had separated from the rail) with a mix of tar mat, bondo, rubber, and wait for it.....  cut up and flattened Maxwell House Coffee cans.  SMH.  I'm scared to dig deeper to see what else I am going to find.  I think I will just replace the floors and rails instead.

3 hours ago, iscnetwork said:

New floor pans, would be my recommendation.

I can't really see the rails to know for sure on those.

After performing more minor surgery and digging deeper today, I concur.  It turns out the reason the passenger side looked so uneven was that the floorpans were indeed rusted and separated from the rails.  One of the previous owners used some pretty sketchy techniques to perform the repair.  On the driver side, there is a thin square of aluminum that was screwed into the rusty floorpan, to cover up a rust hole.  On the passenger side, they used a combination of tar, what looks like rubber, maybe some bondo, and wait for it... a cut up Maxwell House Coffee Can!!  I guess the repair really was good until the last find!  This has got to be one of the worst repairs I have ever come across.  It's funny, I was talking to a fellow Cub Scout Parent at Camporee this weekend, and he was telling me about his Mustang that he bought to restore and his rusty floors had been replaced with road signs!  I guess this was a somewhat common quick and dirty rust repair for owners who wanted to hide rust from unsuspecting future owners?  SMH.  Looks like I will be buying new floors and rails.  On a postive note, the same Camporee Parent is a professor of Automobile Mechanics at the local community college, and he recommended a former student that does rust repairs, so I will be reaching out to him.  

I got one too.  My wife and kids saw it at Hallmark and bought it for me.

Made some progress today before I had to deal with another automotive emergency with the family minivan.  I pulled up all of the loose pieces and vacuumed up the small pieces of rust.  I didn't get a chance to get much of the tar mat up. 

1 hour ago, grannyknot said:

Mmmmm, that's not looking so good, you can see on both the P/S and D/S the floor pan has collapsed into the the rail running underneath. The only way to be sure is get a putty knife and start chipping out all of the tar mat, once you've removed that you will be able to see the extent of the damage.

Chances are you will have to replace the floor pans and rails but being a 2+2 is going to add some complexity to the job.  It doesn't look like https://kfvintagejdm.com/product-category/datsun-280z/ 

make a 2+2 floor pan but you might get away with the standard 280 pans with an custom extension welded in. https://kfvintagejdm.com/shop/datsun-280z/complete-floor-pans-datsun-280z/

Body shops make their money by getting a damaged car in and out as fast as possible, modern uni body cars with rust take a lot of work to repair properly and so they avoid them, the Z series from 69-78 were some of the first uni body cars and they are much simpler and easier to repair than a modern car.  If you aren't going to do the work yourself you will need to hunt for a shop that is experienced repairing older classic cars, a standard collision shop shouldn't be your first choice.

grannyknot,

Thanks for the quick response.  I did reach out to a floor replacement seller already.  If the only the front section is bad, couldn't I in theory I have the front section welded to my original back floor pans?  

The classic car community is pretty strong here, so I think I have a number of places to try any hunt down and contact.  I'll get to work at seeing if I can determine the further extent of the damage in the mean time.  Looks like I am out of the simple patch and repair world and more into the full floor pan and possibly rail replacement ballpark.

1 hour ago, Patcon said:

I would recommend going to some of the automotive paint supply stores in your area (finish masters?). Ask them for some names of shops that do classic car work. Dont do it in front of other customers! Collision shops don't like working on classic cars. You need to find a restoration shop. The guys who sell the paint will know who's in your area. Go to more than one paint supply house. Their customers tend to shop at only one shop. So it's sort of Balkanized. Once you find a restoration shop they may not be interested or have a long backlog, ask them who they would recommend. It's gonna require some networking.

I would drive the car. The car will still maintain its shape even with no floor pan. I wouldn't thrash on the car though...

Charles,

Thanks for the quick reply.  Looks like I have a good bit of work ahead of me.  The classic car community is pretty large here, so I think I have a number of places I can look up and contact.  Good to know this isn't totally debilitating and I can still drive.  I'll take it easy though.  I did have a shop that agreed to look at it yesterday, but I rescheduled because it was pouring down rain and I did not want to take the Z out in that weather.  I want to get an assessment of the magnitude of the issue.  Pretty sure it's not a 3-digit $ problem, more likely it is a 4-digit $ problem, but hopefully is not a 5-digit $ problem.   

As I posted in my build/project thread, I recently discovered some rust on the floor of my 280Z 2+2 when I lifted the carpets.  The damage went previously unnoticed because the exterior frame and panels are undercoated.  The worst of it is on the driver side, where there is a hole large enough that I can poke my finger through in between the foot rest and clutch pedal.  There is also a long perforation and signs of deterioration running fore to aft in the approximate location of the frame rail, and a pencil sized hole just in front of the seat rail.  It is hard to determine the damage from under the car because it is undercoated.  The passenger side looks like it was repaired previously, as the drain plugs have all been filled in, and it looks like a plate or something was attached in the area of the frame rail.  My questions are:

1. Is this damage severe enough to be a structural concern?  Should I not drive the 280Z until I can make repairs?
2. Is the appropriate repair new floor board(s) and/or rail(s) or just a remove rusted area and patch?
3. If I do need new floor boards, I have a 2+2.  I believe the front of the floor board (where all of the evidence of rust is located) to the seat rail is the same for the coupes as it is for my car.  I understand some additional cutting might be needed to make it fit, but otherwise it should work and is probably a better solution that just replacing the floorboard with a flat piece of metal.
4. When I mention the word "rust," most body shops in my area (Baltimore, MD) tell me they don't do rust repair and I feel like I have terminal cancer.  Does anyone have a recommendation for someone that can do this work that would be somewhat local to me?  I have limited space, no access to a welder, and very rudimentary welding skills at best (I did a very small amount of welding way back when in college as part of the SAE baja team, but I don't trust my skills or ability on my car).  

Thanks to all and any that can provide guidance.  Please talk me off the ledge - I was pretty sick to my stomach when I discovered the rust.  I'm worried of how much more damage there is hidden beneath the undercoating.  

The Bad News:  This past Monday, I had some free time due to the Federal Holiday and with the wife at work and kids at school, so I decided to do some additional inspection of the interior.  What concerned me was a few pieces of debris that fell onto my garage floor from where I park the 280Z and the bubbling of the interior coating on the center tunnel and some discoloration I noticed on the 110 paint just beneath the carpet and out of view.  So, I pulled up the carpet and discovered a hole that I can poke my finger through between the footrest and clutch pedal.  Also, it looks like there is some growing rust along the front of the driver's floor pan, and it looks about where the pan is attached to the rail.  There's also a small pencil sized hole near the driver seat rail.  The passenger side looks like it was repaired at some point in the past, there is discoloration and the drain plugs have been filled in, and some of the coating has come loose and is laying on the floor, but much less deterioration than the driver side and I do not see any perforations.  I may also post for some advice in the body forum.  My main questions are how extensive are these repairs (remove and patch vs. replace the floor board(s) and possibly rail(s))? and is this a massive structural issue such that I shouldn't drive until the repairs are made?  One of the previous owners didn't seem to think so, as I found a small plate of metal (likely aluminum) screwed into underbody to cover the finger hole.  When I discovered this damage on Monday, I was pretty sick to my stomach.  Hopefully it's not as bad as I think it is, but I am concerned that the undercoating may be hiding more surprises.  Also, I have been trying to call around to some local body shops to see if they could take a look at it and give me a better assessment of the level of damage, but the minute I mention the word rust most give me the cold shoulder or treat me like I have terminal cancer.     

So the good news:  I was able to replace the shift boot and repair the center console.  The console was an adventure in trial and error and trying to duplicate a repair technique I saw on Wheeler Dealers.  Suffice to say that JB weld plastic epoxy and bumper repair epoxy are not strong enough to hold the oblong center console together.  Nor is it ever as easy as shown on tv in real life.  However, Rhino Glue worked, and even survived an accidental hit from the rear seat when it wasn't fully seated!

So the strange and interesting stereo modifications to my car by one of the previous owners continues...

It was a rainy afternoon today, so instead of a Sunday drive I decided to try and figure out why the in dash stereo is inoperable.  Fuses seem to be in place and working order.  I pulled the center console and low and behold the head unit is not only not connected, it is a Craig 3146 model.  This unit looks like an aftermarket stereo - wasn't Hitachi and/or Clarion the OEM suppliers to Datsun/Nissan?  As I recall, my 1983 810 Maxima had a Clarion head unit.  The Craig unit looks to have been manufactured in 1977 and has a 9-pin connector instead of the 6 pin connector.  The chassis wiring connector seems unmolested, but there is no splice piece, connector, or wiring between the head unit connector and the chassis connection.  🤷‍♂️So either it was removed or never installed for fear of having to cut the factory wires.  While it would be cool to have a functioning old school stereo, I don't think I'll be figuring out how to get the old Craig unit working.  I think I either want something close to OEM with Bluetooth functionality or I will just blank off the radio and enjoy the sounds the engine and exhaust makes when I drive.  

In other findings, I may be in the market for a new rubber shift boot, as mine is pretty well disintegrated enough that I can see my garage floor beneath it.  Also, my center console is cracked, may want to replace it or try to glue it back together.

Quote

 

.

13 hours ago, HusseinHolland said:

Thank you. On a side note, reading the FSM diagrams drives me nuts, since the wiring illustrations are from the terminal side of any given connector, compared to European format which is always viewed from wire side of any given connector. I'm already good at getting dyslexic with wiring, having to translate the pin locations in my head from the diagram to the reality just adds to the potential for error on my part. I always double-check my wiring anyway, with these it just takes even longer.

OK - So I'm going to assume the pin configuration he illustrates is still accurate for the HEI then, with Gn going to the small leg on the HEI

He doesn't actually list or show the physical wire transfer/connection within the module to the HEI pins:

G (harness) = Gn-R (module)

R (harness) = Gn-Wh (module)

Mine has 2 Blk/Wh wires, middle one appears to be redundant - since there is no connection on the module side. Not sure if I should join the 2 together for the HEI, in case there is some reason the 2 are required.

One note from my experience, when I connected my HEI, I ended up having to totally bypass the resistor.  I have a 1976, so my wiring was a bit different than yours.  I ended up connecting the B (blue wire) and C (Black with White stripe) to the Negative and Positive Ignition Coil Terminals, respectively.  Here is my thread for reference:  

Post #24 onwards is likely pertinent and may be helpful to you.  I initially thought this was a fuel delivery issue, so I posted it in the wrong part of the forum before other more knowledgeable members here steered me in the right direction.  I guess the good thing is that I did clear out my fuel vent lines, replaced my fuel filter, and developed a very good understanding of the fuel and ignition systems in my 280Z.  Good luck, and I hope this helps!

🤣Well, for the record, my wife hates my Z but my kids love it, so I feel this guy's pain.  That's a great looking 240Z, the same color as my uncle's 240Z that caught fire. RIP.

I have been in the process of putting my rear trim back together (from troubleshooting and cleaning out all the fuel vent lines and expansion tank) and I have come to the realization that when you get into the classic car game as a much later owner, you inherit ALL of the previous owners' sins.  This is compounded by the fact that I like things to be very organized and just as they should be.  I also don't like just doing something partially and calling it good enough - my completed work should be almost to the level of the manufacturer's original intent and quality, which I am sure is probably borderline OCD.  I noticed several trim screws missing, found a rodent nest behind the rear light panel trim piece, and this pretty substantial customization of the speaker mount.  Anyone know where I can find a replacement?  These don't seem like an easy to find replacement part, so it may just be that I have to live with it as-is, as well as the age deteriorating vinyl underside the is separating from the rear carpet and gets worse every time I move it.  

I was also able to replace the aged and broken spring on my rear hatch closer.  As it turns out, the springs from a standard retractable ball point pen fit or will at least work until I can find the real spring.  

We also went to a Cars & Coffee event at our local Detail Garage last Sunday and were again the only Datsun there.  A good time but a little hot, luckily, they had flavored ice instead of steaming hot coffee.  It's always cool to see what projects people put their heart and soul into, our favorite this time was an old Dodge Challenger set up for the drag strip.  My son had a lot of fun trying to figure out where the parachute release was located (turns out it was adjacent to the rearview mirror).

This weekend I think I may start getting a list together of things that I want to remedy over the winter and I am toying with removing the 280Z graphics on the sides - I don't think these were a factory option and they look more custom and vintage 1980's in my opinion.  I'm just a little worried that if I do remove them that the paint underneath will be a different shade since it has not been exposed to the sunlight as much as the uncovered paint and the decals have probably been on there a long, long time.  I did also notice a disturbing hum when I had the Z in gear and under load (first noticed in 3rd, but then seemed to be present in 2nd and 4th as well).  It stops when I go into neutral or depress the clutch pedal.  Reading up on here, I am concerned it may be a bearing going bad, so there's more research and diagnosis to come...

Also, if I am going to be doing some significant work over the fall and/or winter months, looks like I am going to have to consider getting a much better jack or possibly a lift for the garage.   

13 hours ago, zed2 said:

I have several attended Hershey Spring and Fall events over the last 15 years.  There is very little Datsun/Nissan presence…some cars at the corrals. Datsun/Nissan Parts and literature is almost nonexistent. If you do attend budge time for the America’s Transportation Experience at Hershey … the AACA Museum, Inc. https://www.aacamuseum.org/. The Tucker exhibit is incredible!!!

keith

Keith - Thanks for your response.  I do want to go up to the AACA Museum.  I have heard many good things about it.  The last car show I attended in early August was hosted by AACA.  I was the only Datsun, and the only import from the Far East.  To be fair, there were a few VW bugs and an Opel GT there, so it wasn't all just old muscle cars.  I suspected because I was in such a minority representation that Hershey (which I think is put on by the AACA) would likely not have much with regards to Japanese cars.  I guess Carlisle is the same, other than the Import Nationals.  Where is the Japanese car love?  I guess we are just a distinguished few with impeccable, yet uncommon taste.  Oh well.  

Tucker is one of my automotive heroes, so I really do need to get up to the AACA museum to see that exhibit.

So I have been kicking around the idea of taking a day or two off from work in the Fall to check out either Fall Carlisle or Hershey.  I was wondering if these events were mostly for American classic cars or if there is a significant presence of vendors selling hard-to-find Datsun parts and other import vehicles?  I did see that there were a few vendors at Carlisle Import Nationals in the late Spring, do I just need to wait until then to find Datsun parts?  I have never been to the Spring or Fall Carlisle main events but I have always wanted to go - especially if there is other collectibles like old brochures, magazines, auto art, scale model cars, dealer sales books, etc.  Has anyone here been and can fill me in on their experiences?  If Carlisle/Hershey are not worth it for us Datsun and Nissan owners, are there any other specific swap meet type events on the east coast?  There seems to be quite a few in California and the Pacific Northwest that I have stumbled upon through internet searching.  Oddly, the Carlisle and Hershey searches have not turned up great results, so I suspect I may be disappointed if I make the ~2 hour trek in a few weeks.  Thanks in advance for anyone that can help fill me in.

9 hours ago, Racer X said:

I would just lock in the front hubs and gas it.

 

I saw one of these in central NJ years ago.  In much worse shape, but same concept.  I doubt it was the same car, but how many 4x4 S30's are out there, I wonder?

12 hours ago, Mark Maras said:

I can confirm they're great (and fun) in the snow as long as it doesn't get too deep.

My 2009 370Z was terrifying in the snow, even with Blizzak snow tires.  You'd think with all the modern day nannies like traction and stability control that would not be the case.  I got stuck in a blizzard in January 2011.  I stupidly decided to stay at work, even though the rest of the Federal Government had thrown in the towel and let everyone go home early.  I was working at the USNA at the time, and they said, "we are outside the Beltway, so it doesn't apply to the Navy and Annapolis."  Every time I stopped on the Interstate in the stop and go traffic and tried to start up again, the 370Z would go sideways, whether I started in 2nd gear, feathered the throttle, or anything else.  I thought for sure I was going to either run into the car in the next lane or get stuck.  That was probably the longest commute home of all time, and most stressful white knuckle driving I think I have experienced in my over 30 years behind the wheel.