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Z's on BAT and other places collection


Zed Head

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On 9/16/2022 at 2:23 PM, DC871F said:

We're they ever called a 1969 240z?

 

In North America, they were introduced for the 1970 model year even though the official introduction was in 1969 with the idea that orders were taken for a January 1970 delivery.  But since you asked, and we are kicking around the differences between "model years", a 1969 build car has several differences from what is considered a "series one" HLS30 by the masses on BaT.  I don't know how they would reconcile the discovery of the differences in the real early production cars.

 

So I have to change my answer.  See Car's post below.

Edited by 26th-Z
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On 9/11/2022 at 6:45 AM, kats said:

This is the decal of the BAT green 240Z . 
 

CanTechZ , I want to know about your 240Z’s fuel tank . 
Your car doesn’t have a reservoir tank behind the right rear quarter panel , does she ? 
Also your car doesn’t have breather / return pipes on the main fuel tank ? 
 

Kats 
 

E71F08F1-3A51-4F07-874A-019F8211F269.png

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Hi Kats, sorry I'm a little late responding to your question. In 1988 I replaced my fuel tank with a new one from my local Nissan dealership, so it does have the extra vent lines but they were capped off at installation. It doesn't have a reservoir tank at the right rear quarter or the fuel flow guide valve or extra line. It does have the original single groove harmonic balancer pulley.

IMG_4573s.JPG

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Boy, diving into the ins and outs of the 73 model year 240 is a little like trying to get across a mine field safely. According to the service bulletin - pictured - the 73 model year starts in the 9th month of 1972. However the parts micro fisch section that illustrates the new for 73 induction system and my recollection says it really started in the 7th month of 72. Here's where it really gets confusing. 1973 was the first year for Z car heater control illumination. However,  again, the micro fisch parts section on the heater says that the new system started in the 8th month of 72. Which is it???

I have an interesting, at least to me, story about the first 73 Z that was sold by the Datsun dealer which was employing me at the time - but that's for another time. 

Also, 73 510, the last of the line and THE BEST.

IMG_3208.JPG

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13 hours ago, 26th-Z said:

In North America, they were introduced for the 1970 model year even though the official introduction was in 1969 with the idea that orders were taken for a January 1970 delivery.

Perhaps tellingly, and certainly interestingly, Chief Engineer Suitsu san's original plan from April 1967 aimed at shipments starting in August 1969.

They were slightly late! 

Edited by HS30-H
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11 hours ago, zspert said:

I refer to them as 69 production date cars

I can't help feeling that things would be a whole lot simpler if everybody got into the habit of doing that for all the other production years (and months...) too.

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8 hours ago, zspert said:

Boy, diving into the ins and outs of the 73 model year 240 is a little like trying to get across a mine field safely. According to the service bulletin - pictured - the 73 model year starts in the 9th month of 1972. However the parts micro fisch section that illustrates the new for 73 induction system and my recollection says it really started in the 7th month of 72. Here's where it really gets confusing. 1973 was the first year for Z car heater control illumination. However,  again, the micro fisch parts section on the heater says that the new system started in the 8th month of 72. Which is it???

I have an interesting, at least to me, story about the first 73 Z that was sold by the Datsun dealer which was employing me at the time - but that's for another time. 

Also, 73 510, the last of the line and THE BEST.

 

According to the Date of Mfg. on the cars - production started in 08/72 and ended in 08/73. Highest VIN for 1973 found so far is HLS30  172767. 

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Earlier it was supposed that Nissan used "old parts" during the transition to the "late 1971" 240Z.  If I had one I'd just use Nissan's bulletin as a check list.  Actually, if I was selling one I'd do the same.  It covers the issue of features, and the time and VIN just fall out of the documentation and ID tags.  Just put the numbers and the features out there and let the buyers decide what they value.

It would be interesting to see if there are any hybrid early/late 1971's out there.  Late parts used earlier than shown (like the reversible key) or early parts used later.

http://zhome.com/History/New71LateP2.htm

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Edited by Zed Head
Left out some features
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9 hours ago, Zed Head said:

Earlier it was supposed that Nissan used "old parts" during the transition to the "late 1971" 240Z.  If I had one I'd just use Nissan's bulletin as a check list.  Actually, if I was selling one I'd do the same.  It covers the issue of features, and the time and VIN just fall out of the documentation and ID tags.  Just put the numbers and the features out there and let the buyers decide what they value.

It would be interesting to see if there are any hybrid early/late 1971's out there.  Late parts used earlier than shown (like the reversible key) or early parts used later.

http://zhome.com/History/New71LateP2.htm

 
Now 50+ years later, it is impossible to know for certain. It is certainly “possible” that one or two newer or older parts made their way onto the wrong car. Possible but with a very low probability. If we were talking American Cars with the UAW workers on the line - yes - high probability of things screwed up. A world class car assembled in Japan by workers with great company pride and Total Quality Control training etc. … very low probability IMHO. 
 
 
The highest VIN we have recorded so far for a Series I HLS30 240Z, is HLS30 20533. Purchased from the original owners family and refreshed by a friend of mine. In the exchange of pictures and information over the months he worked on the car, we did not find any of the Series II changes or improvements on that 240Z. (it was an A/T car BTW)  Another outlier - is HLS30 19860, a Series I example that should have finished production in 01/71, but did not  -and was finished in 02/71. It was advertised for sale on BAT in 2017 and pretty completely discussed at the time - but none of the Series II changes seemed to be present on that Z at that time.
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On 9/16/2022 at 8:23 PM, DC871F said:

We're they ever called a 1969 240z?

 

Good one. I think not because they where titled as 70 , since so few where made in 69.

But for me the factory build tag remains the build date, not when it was titled, although this system is still beeing used today.

 

Correct me if i am wrong woke z police 🤣

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7 hours ago, bartsscooterservice said:

Good one. I think not because they where titled as 70 , since so few where made in 69.

But for me the factory build tag remains the build date, not when it was titled, although this system is still beeing used today.

They were titled as whatever the Dealer put on the original application for a new title at the local DMV,  in any of the 50 States.
 
In the 50's, 60's and even into 1970 many Import Car Dealers held their Model Year consistent with whatever was common practice in the country of origin.  Many of the early Datsun Dealers were already Import Car Dealers when they took on the Datsun Brand. So they followed their normal practice when applying for a new car Title.
 
VW for example held their model year consistent with the calendar year, as did Porsche and Jaguar as I recall. So if a VW was produced on say 31 Dec. 1960 it was titled as a 1960 VW no matter when it was sold,  if the VW was produced on  3 Jan 1961 it was titled as a 1961 VW (even though there was no real difference between them).   At that time, part of the reasons given to buy a VW Bug, was that there was no "Planned Obsolescence” due to changing the model completely every year as was done by the American Mfg.s. in the 50’s and 60’s. If you drove a Bug it always looked like a new one!
 
The downside to holding the model year consistent with the Calendar Year for the Import Car Dealers, was that their “new models” arrived at the US Dealerships about three months after the First of the Year. That was 5 or 6 months after the New Models from the American Manufactures went on sale. Model Years also affected Resale Values later in the market - as cars depreciated year by year - a car tilted as a 1960 VW was worth less in the resale market than one titled as a 1961 model. (in the eyes of the banks that loaned the money - as well as the customers buying them). 
 
Over time, with increased competition and new laws/regulations from the Federal Government;  Domestic and Import Car Sales practices started to normalize. Nonetheless today looking back 40 or 50 years everything looks abnormal. 
 

TitleHLS30 00020.jpg

Fairlady1969Title.jpg

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9 hours ago, bartsscooterservice said:

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-datsun-240z-236/

It seems many people back in the day thought the frame rails was a good jacking point....🤭

 

Yes, and several others found out that you can not drive a 240Z over the concrete parking stops at the shopping mall or grocery store. (without getting hung up or damaging the frame rails).
 
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The date on the Tennessee title is January 14th.  Wow, I'm impressed.  26th wasn't titled until April 1970.  20th made it all the way to Tennessee, and titled, in such a short period of time.

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6 hours ago, 26th-Z said:

The date on the Tennessee title is January 14th.  Wow, I'm impressed.  26th wasn't titled until April 1970.  20th made it all the way to Tennessee, and titled, in such a short period of time.

I bought my first 240Z 14 March 1970, in Spokane, Washington - HLS30 01777.  Had to leave it on the Dealer's Showroom floor until May 1970 when they started to actually get their first "supply" of 4 240'z. (all of which had been pre-sold). Then the last guy on the list had to leave his there..for a while.

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OK Zed Head, etc, here's the unicorn you asked about. I have a 1/71 in my shop - VIN 18437 - getting a well deserved rehabilitation after years of neglect. It has later seat belts with 6 & 7/71 production dates. It has the early visors and a Redwing interior mirror. 

Want to touch on a subject Carl Beck brushed up against regarding the early years of selling imported cars.  In those pre 1970 days import dealers, the exception being VW, were strictly Mon & Pop operations. They often started out as used car lots or service operations that sold imports as almost a sideline. My first dealer sold BMW, Saab and NSU before picking up Datsun in mid 1970. The showroom could accommodate 3 cars and there were 5 service bays. A good month saw 3-5 cars being sold. Dad was the sales dept, son ran service and Mom kept the books. Their necks were stuck way out and it showed.  They started in the car business at a smaller facility as a VW and Porsche repair shop. So, you're a Fiat, Renault or NSU dealer in 1966 with 4 cars left on the lot and it's Dec. You know those machines aren't going anywhere soon so what to do. You apply to the MVA and change the titles to 1967. Now you have 4 67s - a very common practice in those days. This all changed with the Japanese invasion of the early 70s. Now you're moving lots and lots of cars, as many as you could get per month. We didn't need a larger showroom as the Datsuns were sold before they had a chance to display them. Dad wasn't a salesman any more, he was an order taker. 

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10 hours ago, kats said:

Hi Carl , I love the story. In that case , did the dealership give some discount for the customer to compensate for displaying in a showroom?  I am just curious about it.

Now my question is, Nissan did numerous changes for S30 series not on late 1970 but early 1971. Seems it doesn’t relate to American ‘model year’ system . Was the change of S30 series considered normal for Nissan including other Nissan cars, or only for S30 series? 
......(snipped..cjb).... 

 

Hi Kats:   That is correct - it did not comply with the normal “model year” marketing system here.  The normal model year 1971 here started 1 Oct. 1970 and would run into 30 Sept 1971. These are dates New/Improved models go on sale at the Dealerships. Don’t confuse the Dates of Sale with Dates of Manufacture;   although there is normal relationship between them. Cars have to be manufactured some time before they go on sale at the dealership.

 
So for some reason Nissan continued to build/sell the same model as both 1970 and 1971 model year offerings from Oct 1969 through all of 1970 and into 1971.  Four months (Oct.,Nov., Dec. Jan.) into the normal 1971 model year Nissan introduced a second and different model also sold as a 1971 model year offering. 
 
This affected only the Datsun 240Z, the 510’s and Pickup’s for the 1971 Model Year were in the showroom for sale in Oct. or Nov of 1970.
 
I can only guess why that was done with the 240Z;   I would guess Nissan was delayed for some reason getting the normal 1971 Model introduced back in Oct./Nov. of 1970. That delay may have been due to ever changing US Emissions and Safety Standards during that period. With required changes made, the cars had to under-go US re-certification before being sold. (another delay). The same thing happened with the introduction of the 1975 Fuel Injected 280Z - it was delayed by 3 or 4 months into the normal 1975 model year. However that time it only involved selling one model year 1975.
 
 
You may recall that Mr. Kawazoe was assigned to work in Washington D.C. to represent both Nissan and the Japanese Auto Industry to lobby the US Congress for changes,  reductions or delays in implementing the strict standards. (same as all the US manufacturers did at the time). Also to inform Japan of pending or proposed new standards. Keep in mind there was no “Internet” then that allowed real time communications of documents or drawings. International communications of complex technical documents could take a week or more.
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13 hours ago, zspert said:

OK Zed Head, etc, here's the unicorn you asked about. I have a 1/71 in my shop - VIN 18437

 

13 hours ago, zspert said:

It has later seat belts with 6 & 7/71 production dates.

That is a weird one.  It's not really what was suggested, which was old parts being used up during the transition.  That one has parts that are not supposed to be in use yet.

Any chance somebody just wanted the "improved" parts and had them switched later?

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