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Z's on BAT and other places collection


Zed Head

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1 hour ago, DC871F said:

Great point.

When did the "series" thing first start? Having had Z's for over 30 years, I can't remember if that was a thing back when I first got interested in them.

The whole series thing just helps establish a sub-category value pecking order and strokes egos of early production owners.  

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4 hours ago, Zed Head said:

 

I saw your comments on zhome about when Nissan switched but it's not clear how you know that.

"When Nissan switched" what ?

When Nissan switched from selling the 1970 design (your term) as a 1970 Model Year offering - to - selling the 1970 design as a 1971 Model Year offering?  I don't believe we have that pinned down to a specific month, as it depended on the Dealer and the State they were in. 

or

When Nissan switched from manufacturing the 1970 design - to manufacturing the 1971 design?  Kats said earlier Nissan switched in Feb 1971 for exports and in March of domestic market cars.  The Technical Service Bulletin gives the beginning chassis serial number as HLS30 21001 - and so far every 240Z (still stock) with that VIN or higher has a manufacturing date of 02/71 or higher.

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38 minutes ago, Carl Beck said:

When Nissan switched from selling the 1970 design (your term) as a 1970 Model Year offering - to - selling the 1970 design as a 1971 Model Year offering? 

I should rephrase the question as "what did Nissan change on the 240Z when they started selling them as 1971 models?".

So far, everything seems to show that the cars stayed the same until HLS30-21001 arrived.  The "late model 240Z".  That a late 1970 and an early 1971 are identical.

This conversation started because the guy on BAT called his 1971 "titled" 240Z a 1970 240Z.  It seems that the only difference between his car and a 1970 titled 240Z is...the title.  The whole thing is not about the physical car but the ink on a piece of paper.  If he didn't have the title and a person (maybe a car show judge) couldn't see the ID plates or VIN stampings, there would be no way to tell that it was titled as a 1971.  It's identical to a "real" 1970 240Z.

That's what I was trying to figure out.  In effect, Nissan did not introduce the 1971 240Z until HLS30-21001 seems to be the conclusion.  The cars sold before then were just 1971's in ink terms.

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1 hour ago, w3wilkes said:

I've been a 240Z owner since July 1973. My current car is a 12/70 build registered as a '71. I don't think I'd heard the series "n" until maybe sometime in the 1990's. I was aware from the time I bought my current 240Z in 1990 that the "series 2" changes were implemented later in 1971 beginning, I believe, with serial number HLS30-021001 but I'm not sure what the build date was for that car, looking at zhome.com my guess is February 1971. One thing I'd be curious to know is if there are any stock round top/non beefed-up front bumper cars that were registered as a 1973? Or were the emissions/safety standards tightened up to the point that all 1973 cars had the flat top carbs and beefed-up front bumper?

EDIT:

@Carl Beck It's kind of like having a IZCC member # 2831 showing a join date of 2017. My guess is this is really the last time I updated my IZCC membership but the join date is probably really in the early 1990's.

Yes, I'd say late 80's to early 90's.  Before that there was constant confusion caused by indirect,  misapplied or misunderstood terms. Like early 71 or late 71. (how early is early? early in what year? which year - the model year or the calendar year? etc etc. Once we realized that Nissan had documented the 4 model series (1970, 1971, 1972, 1973) in their Technical Service Bulletins we started referring to them. 

The first segment of chassis serial numbers sold to the public according to Nissan began at HLS30-00013, the second segment of chassis serial numbers started at HLS30 21001, the third at HLS30 46000 and the fourth at HLS30 120001.  It avoided all the misunderstanding related to terms like model, year, model year, calendar year.  Series I and Series II were needed to individually identify each of the two 1971 Datsun 240Z offered for sale.  Then tell the difference between the two different 1971 Datsun 240Z's in the marketplace. 

Looking back at my notes: "The Z Car List" was started in 1987 by Bob Wissman IZCC #176. Before that we had about 300 subscribers on an E-Mail Copy List.  The IZCC (a virtual club in the Metaverse) was started by John DeArmond in 1992. #2831 would have been issued in the Feb. of 1996.   By 2008 we had over 15,000 subscribers to "The Z Car List".  Many new members over the years had just started to look for a 240Z to buy - still asking - what is the difference between early or late 1971 Model Year 240Z's?  Which is best?  How do I tell them  apart? etc etc. (you can see from this discussion that all still goes on today)

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50 minutes ago, Zed Head said:

I should rephrase the question as "what did Nissan change on the 240Z when they started selling them as 1971 models?".

So far, everything seems to show that the cars stayed the same until HLS30-21001 arrived.  The "late model 240Z".  That a late 1970 and an early 1971 are identical.

Yes, in general terms I would agree.  

This conversation started because the guy on BAT called his 1971 "titled" 240Z a 1970 240Z.  It seems that the only difference between his car and a 1970 titled 240Z is...the title.  The whole thing is not about the physical car but the ink on a piece of paper.  If he didn't have the title and a person (maybe a car show judge) couldn't see the ID plates or VIN stampings, there would be no way to tell that it was titled as a 1971.  It's identical to a "real" 1970 240Z.

That's what I was trying to figure out.  In effect, Nissan did not introduce the 1971 240Z until HLS30-21001 seems to be the conclusion.  The cars sold before then were just 1971's in ink terms.

Yes - I see your point and I can understand the Sellers reasoning.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, w3wilkes said:

@Carl Beck @HS30-H You two seem to be most knowledgeable about these cars. Now back to my question. Were there USA 240Z's registered as 1973 cars that didn't have flat tops and the beefed-up front bumper?

 No - by the 1973 Model Year the US Emissions and Safety standards required both here. Flame retardant interior materials were also mandated for 1973 here.

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9 minutes ago, w3wilkes said:

@Carl Beck @HS30-H You two seem to be most knowledgeable about these cars. Now back to my question. Were there USA 240Z's registered as 1973 cars that didn't have flat tops and the beefed-up front bumper?

Sorry but I'm definitely the wrong guy to pose that question to. I find the seemingly arbitrary nature of 'Model Year' application to be a USA-specific nonsense open to all sorts of shenanigans. A real chimpanzees tea party.

Thanks for the hat-tip though. I wish you good luck...  

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So starting in 1973 in the USA the model (series) year and calendar year were the same. There were USA changes to the car in '74 where the bumpers changed, but it stayed a 260Z for that year. In the USA the '75 through '78 were all 280Z's?? Wonder how many changes went into the 280Z's (and zx's for that matter) where the model year didn't change. It seems to me that as @HS30-H probably believes that it's these USA car nonsense/shenanigans that led to the "series" connotation. I'm also guessing that the whole "series" thing originated in the USA.

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Model years had been a thing in the States for many years before the 240Z appeared here.  Any kid growing up here knew all about 55 Chevys and 67 Camaros and 72 Cuda's and 69 GTO's.  You could tell a 68 GTO from a 69 by its tail lights.  Same with the Chevy's.   Even the tail-light lenses of the Camaros had a date stamp molded in to them.  It was a point of pride to be able to tell a model year at a glance when you saw a cool car.

HS30 seems to be saying that other countries don't define cars by year.  Apparently a "model" exists as an entity through many years and changes are implemented as needed or desired, at any time during the model's production.  I did not realize that the States is the only place that defines cars by model year.  Interesting fact, I learned something about the rest of the world.

Nissan did catch on to the model year nomenclature by 1973, apparently.  They changed the wording of the Foreword in the Service Manuals.  Here's 72 and 73.

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Edited by Zed Head
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1 hour ago, w3wilkes said:

It seems to me that as @HS30-H probably believes that it's these USA car nonsense/shenanigans that led to the "series" connotation.

I can see why the vernacular 'Series 1' etc thing came about, but I think the word 'Series' was probably not a good choice seeing as 'Series' was already defined by NIssan with 'S30 Series'.

Additionally, the 'Series 1' etc nomenclature seems to be a moveable feast open to misuse, mistake and misnomer. The Human Element, I guess. It also does not apply neatly (to say the least...) to market variants that are not USA/Canada models.

55 minutes ago, Zed Head said:

HS30 seems to be saying that other countries don't define cars by year.

On the contrary. They do. It's the American 'Model Year' thing that doesn't work very well elsewhere.

I'm also wary of applying such nomenclature to Japanese cars in general. Sure, Nissan and the other Japanese manufacturers made great efforts to comply with the American 'Model Year' system and apply/inform of certain changes in line with that, but that doesn't mean that their non-USA market output follows suit. 

The whole thing seems to have been badly applied and open to misuse. Look at how much talk there is on here and Bring A Trailer about the anomalies and inconsistencies in (stated) Model Years vs (stated) Production Dates. It seems like there was a huge gulf of intent between a car rolling off the line at the Hiratsuka plant and it being sold by a dealer in the USA and, despite the best efforts of everyone at Nissan Japan, the dealers were almost free to do what they liked. There are parallels with showroom sales of the new RZ34...

Personally speaking, most of what I need to know about a particular car will probably be contained in the combination of its chassis designation and prefix (full 'Katashiki would be nice), production date and its destination market. Anything over and above that comes from looking at the fabric of the car itself. 'Model Year' and 'Series X' are tits on a bull to me. We touched on this several pages back on this thread. 

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5 hours ago, w3wilkes said:

So starting in 1973 in the USA the model (series) year and calendar year were the same.

No - The 1973 Model Year for the 240Z started in 09/72 and ran though 08/73.

There were USA changes to the car in '74 where the bumpers changed, but it stayed a 260Z for that year.

No - There were USA changes to the car for the 1974 Model Year (260Z), which started 09/73 and ran into 08/74;  when Nissan made another change. They changed the entire body and assigned a new chassis serial number segment beginning with RLS30 60001 in 08/74 and that ran into 12/74.  (when the production of the 1975 Model Year 280Z began).

In the USA the '75 through '78 were all 280Z's??

Yes - 1975 through 1978 Model Years (which began in calendar year 1974)

Wonder how many changes went into the 280Z's (and zx's for that matter) where the model year didn't change.

If you are wondering about individual parts that were changed, like a water pump or fuel injector or temp. sensor - maybe someone here has a complete set of Nissan's Technical Service Bulletins.  Some parts were changed because an improved part replaced a known faulty part. Some parts and thus part numbers were changed simply because the OEM Supplier changed.

It seems to me that as @HS30-H probably believes that it's these USA car nonsense/shenanigans that led to the "series" connotation. I'm also guessing that the whole "series" thing originated in the USA.

Yes - the whole series thing originated in the USA - as that is where  Nissan sold one model as two different Model Year offerings. Then sold two different models both as 1971 Model Year offerings.  Very confusing for about 90% of the customers that bought 240Z's in 1970 and 1971. 

From the 20's to this day the USA has had the largest, most open, most competitive automobile market in the world. Most certainly in such a large diverse marketplace nonsense/shenanigans would seem to be a carry over from Horse Trading Days. I'd have to guess that "Model Years" were an outcome of the 1958 Automobile Information Disclosure Act. The Monroney Sticker in response to the nonsense/shenanigans of the manufacturers/dealers in the Post WW-II era.   Spy vs Counter Spy - LOL   All manor of Consumer Protection Laws followed...

 

 

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On 9/12/2022 at 7:03 PM, HS30-H said:

Series is 'S30':

Series is S30.jpg

Yes, I know I know.... LOL

The '' factory designation '' yes..  Like an example.. BMW called it's 3 series  " E36 " in the 90's for instance, or like Mercedes called the 190 model the " W201 "

In common language for the average folks, it's simply a Datsun 240Z, 260Z or 280Z ( S30 )

Edited by bartsscooterservice
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4 minutes ago, bartsscooterservice said:

The '' factory designation '' yes..  Like an example.. BMW called it's 3 series  " E36 " in the 90's for instance, or like Mercedes called the 190 model the " W201 "

You've got at least some of that the wrong way around.

BMW '3-series' (like '5-series' and '7-series' etc) is used in the same way that (for example) Mopar used 'A-body' and 'B-body' to denote platform type/size. Hence they carry it across different generations of Series (E21, E30, E36, E46, E90/91/92/93 etc).

Similarly, W201 is a Mercedes generation for a particular class of product. The sequence was W121, W110, W201, W202 etc.

The whole point about Nissan's S30-series is that it was a series from launch, but people use variant names from within that series as though they are a series themselves. Hence '240Z' instead of HLS30/HS30 and their sub-variants, '260Z' instead of RLS30/RS30/GRLS30/GS30 and their sub-variants, and not even a thought to S30/PS30.

Nissan's system made sense and was used across its whole range. The 'base' model in a series was usually the series denominator, hence C10-series Skyline and C10 model, S30-series Z and S30 model.

 

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23 hours ago, HS30-H said:

You've got at least some of that the wrong way around.

BMW '3-series' (like '5-series' and '7-series' etc) is used in the same way that (for example) Mopar used 'A-body' and 'B-body' to denote platform type/size. Hence they carry it across different generations of Series (E21, E30, E36, E46, E90/91/92/93 etc).

Similarly, W201 is a Mercedes generation for a particular class of product. The sequence was W121, W110, W201, W202 etc.

The whole point about Nissan's S30-series is that it was a series from launch, but people use variant names from within that series as though they are a series themselves. Hence '240Z' instead of HLS30/HS30 and their sub-variants, '260Z' instead of RLS30/RS30/GRLS30/GS30 and their sub-variants, and not even a thought to S30/PS30.

Nissan's system made sense and was used across its whole range. The 'base' model in a series was usually the series denominator, hence C10-series Skyline and C10 model, S30-series Z and S30 model.

 

Your saying the same but in a more difficult way .

 

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7 hours ago, bartsscooterservice said:

Your saying the same but in a more difficult way .

 

Not really.

And if you approve of people using '240Z', '260Z' or '280Z' in situations where 'S30-series Z' is more appropriate, then we are definitely on different wavelengths.

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On 9/12/2022 at 8:09 PM, HS30-H said:

I can see why the vernacular 'Series 1' etc thing came about, but I think the word 'Series' was probably not a good choice seeing as 'Series' was already defined by NIssan with 'S30 Series'.

Additionally, the 'Series 1' etc nomenclature seems to be a moveable feast open to misuse, mistake and misnomer. The Human Element, I guess. It also does not apply neatly (to say the least...) to market variants that are not USA/Canada models.

On the contrary. They do. It's the American 'Model Year' thing that doesn't work very well elsewhere.

I'm also wary of applying such nomenclature to Japanese cars in general. Sure, Nissan and the other Japanese manufacturers made great efforts to comply with the American 'Model Year' system and apply/inform of certain changes in line with that, but that doesn't mean that their non-USA market output follows suit. 

The whole thing seems to have been badly applied and open to misuse. Look at how much talk there is on here and Bring A Trailer about the anomalies and inconsistencies in (stated) Model Years vs (stated) Production Dates. It seems like there was a huge gulf of intent between a car rolling off the line at the Hiratsuka plant and it being sold by a dealer in the USA and, despite the best efforts of everyone at Nissan Japan, the dealers were almost free to do what they liked. There are parallels with showroom sales of the new RZ34...

Personally speaking, most of what I need to know about a particular car will probably be contained in the combination of its chassis designation and prefix (full 'Katashiki would be nice), production date and its destination market. Anything over and above that comes from looking at the fabric of the car itself. 'Model Year' and 'Series X' are tits on a bull to me. We touched on this several pages back on this thread. 

 

Edited by DC871F
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On 9/14/2022 at 12:59 AM, HS30-H said:

And that's the problem...

Really...this has become laughable! Calling a car by the badge on the outside is a problem, the woke police taking over yet again. It says Datsun 240Z on the outside so that's what I have.

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6 minutes ago, SpeedRoo said:

Really...this has become laughable! Calling a car by the badge on the outside is a problem, the woke police taking over yet again. It says Datsun 240Z on the outside so that's what I have.

You're saying that a 1973 240Z has the same value as 1970 240Z?  That if you had a 73 you'd trade it straight across for a 70?  Because they both say 240Z on the outside.

Trying to use those played out memes will drag you in to absurdity.  Be careful.

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3 minutes ago, SpeedRoo said:

Really...this has become laughable! Calling a car by the badge on the outside is a problem, the woke police taking over yet again. It says Datsun 240Z on the outside so that's what I have.

"Woke police". LOL. This from the guy who claims to have never heard of one of America's greatest automotive authors.

I'm talking about situations where the whole is being talked about, but the specific is being used.

For example, a book published regarding the 'Maru Z', '270 Kaihatsu Kigou' project; The genesis, planning, design, engineering and putting-into-production of the whole S30-series range as seen at launch (S30, S30-S, PS30, PS30-SB, HLS30U, HLS30, HS30U etc etc) being titled 'Datsun 240Z Engineering Development'.

See? Probably not...

Happens all the time. Probably whizzes way over your head.

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