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Sean Dezart

Parts for Sale: 4x reproduction Nissan Fairlady Z432 wheels in aluminum

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12 minutes ago, Sean Dezart said:

So, evidently, someone and presumably M-Speed as they're selling them thus, don't want buyers to know the country of origin...and before Alan says 'that's to avoid someone approaching the factory' sic, thousands of wheels are made all over the world that happily have cast their country of origin including Chinese wheels. The factory would happily have had cast whatever M-Speed wanted.....IF M-Speed had asked.😂

M-Speed wanted/wants to sell these wheels in Japan (and now in the States via JDM parts) as 'Japanese' wheels under Japanese prices and that's why Alan felt that they were 'fair' prices in the JDM.

Everyone - but everyone! - knows that they are made in China! When M-Speed first put them on the market in Japan there was much discussion about the price points only being possible because they were made in China. I've even heard people in Japan refer to them as "the Chinese ones". It is in no way a secret. 

You seem to be way out of your depth here. You don't appear to have any concept of the Japanese costings, let alone the politics involved in all of this.

 

16 minutes ago, Sean Dezart said:

and before Alan says 'that's to avoid someone approaching the factory' sic...

And I'm going to point - once again - at your bizarre Straw Man style technique of putting words in someone else's mouth and then refuting them, as though it's a real thing. It isn't.

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23 minutes ago, Sean Dezart said:

But the prices are not my point which is better inllustrated in this thread (where, incidentally, Gavin calls the sames wheels 'reproductions' 😉) : https://www.viczcar.com/forums/topic/9553-kobe-seiko-wheels-works-rally-rims-and-more/page/3/

@Gav240z Care to comment on this, Gavin?

I don't get Sean's constant reference to the words 'Reproduction', 'Replica' - or whatever rubbery and blurred-around-the-edges terms we care to use - as being so troublesome. We all know these terms are moveable feasts at the best of times. It's just a distraction.

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6 minutes ago, HS30-H said:

I don't get Sean's constant reference to the words 'Reproduction', 'Replica' - or whatever rubbery and blurred-around-the-edges terms we care to use - as being so troublesome. We all know these terms are moveable feasts at the best of times. It's just a distraction.

9/29/2020 at 3:30 pm RIP 260Z said :

Lets be clear here, the M-speed wheels, either the Z432 style or "works" style are not reproductions of the original Kobe Seiko wheels. The M-speed are in the style of. They differ in design, and weight and I think off-set too. The z432 style and original Kobe Seiko I have, do so. The other reproductions done here in the UK and Japan, more than likely took a cast of an original to make some reproductions/replicas. The M-speed are different, therefore can't be reproductions. In the style of.

So, I call them replicas/reproductions, Alan does and so does Gavin - so, what do you want to call them ? I'm calling them reproductions - period.😊

 

image.gif

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22 hours ago, HS30-H said:

I don't think you need any help in the advertising department. You are almost literally everywhere, giving it the pile-'em-high-and-sell-'em-cheap schtick. Apart, of course, from where you've been asked not to by admin who understand what is going on... 

You mean of course on those forums where I ASKED before posting ! I posted here because the 'reproduction' wheels are already on sale in this continent.

 

Move on Alan - you'll change nothing and I'm thoroughly done with your point-scoring - grow up man.

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2 hours ago, Gav240z said:

My partner and I (in this venture)

LOL... I dislike that word too... confuses people on one's relationship these days. More importantly... Great grass-roots effort! Luv it!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited by 240260280
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1 hour ago, Gav240z said:
  1. I recall seeing someone in Eastern Europe offering the M-speed style wheels for literally half the price of what M-speed were charging elsewhere. Naturally this seemed too good to be true.
  2. Subsequently there was discussion around the person offering these wheels and how they were so cheap? From what I could ascertain before the listings were removed from Marketplace is that they were squirrelled out of the backdoor of the same factory M-speed had commissioned to cast them in China.
  3. I asked you if you had gone to the effort of reproducing the wheels or if they were M-speed and you were distributing for them, but I didn't get a clear answer.

This photo of the "Made in" and the rest appears ground off.

To me it looks like you're trying to obfuscate where they have come from or who made them for that matter, but why do that?

Hello Gavin.

I read words like 'seemed' and 'could ascertain' which are really just your personal opinion aren't they - no proof.

3) because the answer isn't clear and I'm unwilling to make that clear.....yet !

The 'Made'in' is partially ground off but not at my demand - I asked if it was cast somewhere and it had been a condition imposed before exporting - I said no need on my behalf hence partially done. The better question to ask is why M-Speed insisted upon grinding off the 'Made in China' ? Even if everyone in Japan knew or guessed at their origin - why have the factory grind off the origin country ?

2 hours ago, Gav240z said:

Anyway, why does it matter where they came from or where they are made?

Simple, M-speed spent a lot of money, time and R&D to bring these wheels to market, so whatever price they charge is their business and they should be able to charge whatever price they want. The market will tell them if it's too expensive or not.

Nobody would be complaining. But what you're doing is taking the hard work and capital that M-speed has kicked into this project and undercut them, but this also creates another downstream problem. Determining which wheels are from M-speed and which ones are posing as M-Speed. It may also deter companies like M-speed from doing similar projects in future as a result and as a community we all lose out when that happens.

Q. How do you know the ones sold to you direct from the factory are of the same quality as the ones M-speed is selling? Has it not occurred to you that M-speed may have many batches of wheels sent to them for testing before selling them to the wider market and a bunch of those wheels may be discarded after QC because of the Chinese attitude of "Cha Bu Duo"? Or that the wheels commissioned by M-speed must be done to a higher standard and strength and materials (alloys used must be higher quality), and since they are charing M-speed more for this standard that's fine, but if they are selling them out the back door or via Alibaba marketplace then just Cha Bu Duo will do?

Why does it matter ? Long story on and off between Alan, Jason and myself but it does matter to you ''Cha Bu Duo'' ! I'm not complaining about M-Speeds' or their retailers' prices here and the market HAS told them they're too expensive.  There are no orders coming into the factory !

I can't see why any of you are complaining - none are posing as M-Speed, they're all coming from the same factory and all of the same factory-inspected quality. How were M-Speed going to test batches and IF any were discarded, do you genuinely believe M-Speed would post back a few pallets ? You, like the other pair are deliberately casting doubt on these wheels in an attempt to simply scare off buyers. The only way that you want to see wheels like this on the market is expensively so as to deter Joe Dough from buying and therefore their prolification upon Zs......in effect, you want to keep them exclusive !

2 hours ago, Gav240z said:

This is why I have concerns about the wheels myself, since I'm not sure what testing has been done and if you are checking any of these wheels yourself for quality and standards.

Let's face it the people who want these wheels are probably looking to mount them on cars they have invested a lot of money into and the last thing they want when driving at 100km/h and hitting a pot hole is to have a wheel crack in half on them and cause them to crash or injure themselves.

These wheels must arrive chez M-Speed and all that's done is all a white sticker inside which may well be done at the factory before packing for all I know. If I were them, I'd even be shipping the wheels direct from China to their retailer here to increase margins.

All this lark about M-Speed quality testing is nonsense - they are a retailer not metallurgists - please be responsable in your remarks. The same doubts were cast by Alan on the UK importing of Atara Pisang wheels that 'emulate' and are 'in the style' of Watanabes  but they're fine, running on several race-cars in Europe now.

You, yourself were keen about the M-Speed emulations a year ago - very excited and NOW you have concerns.....none of you want the ordinary guy to have anything that approaches the Holy-Grail styles of period wheels.

3 hours ago, Gav240z said:

If you were to contact the local foundry in Australia that helps me produce my own wheels looking to buy direct from them, then I'd want them to tell you to go away as Alan mentioned.  The foundry was paid to make the wheel for myself (and partner) not so they can take that design / pattern and go make 1000s of them to sell on eBay etc..

Of course you would but will they ? If the cost is so high that you can't sell enough* of these.....what's going to happen ?

* and 'enough' is the key word here, M'Speed aren't  and the wheels presumably ordered by them but unpaid are being sold by the factory...I'm not stealing, I'm buying them at the market rate, slightly above that (I believe) of M-Speeds' price. These are the same quality as those seen sonce (2xyears ?) ago and any assumptions to the contrary are not only irresponsable, placing doubt on the M-Speed supplied wheels themselves but complete nonsense designed solely to discourage buyers !

 

We've gone around the merrygoround now lads :

 

Firstly it was who made them and ethics

Then doubt the quality.

Then ethics again.

Now quality again...

 

I'll put up one of these wheels against one bought from the uS M-Speed retailer and someone independant have them both tested in complete confidence that they are exactly the same

 

3 hours ago, Gav240z said:

It may also deter companies like M-speed from doing similar projects in future as a result and as a community we all lose out when that happens.

But that is just exactly what you guys want - no more Chinese cheap parts and please, don't mention the community when none of you want 'the community' to benefit.....unless you're rich !

I wish you all the success in your endeavours Gavin and you've certainly got the moral highground by supporting local industry and jobs but I wonder whether it will be commercially succesful - will the 8x15s (and yes, put me down for a set please*) be 2000GTs or 240Zs ? Btw, (bit of humour😄) nice  balance weight - I always get mine stuck inside.

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2 hours ago, Jason240z said:

@Gav240z will you be doing them in Magnesium? 

Unless an individual wants to pay - in advance - for a set in Magnesium, it is highly unlikely.
Working with Mg creates a whole new group of issues...
As Mr T alluded to in an earlier post, the cost of is exercise is exorbitant, as we are doing it buy the book - FEA, Stress Calcs, destructive testing, engineering type approval...
And no Mr Desert, they are not commercially viable - we may not even make them available to anyone other than Gav and myself. Time will tell. 

I digress... I have nothing to add to this merry-go-round other than:
If you want a set of Mr Deserts wheels, then buy a set.
Or don't.
Simples.

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8 minutes ago, Lurch said:

the cost of is exercise is exorbitant, as we are doing it buy the book - FEA, Stress Calcs, destructive testing, engineering type approval...
And no Mr Desert, they are not commercially viable - we may not even make them available to anyone other than Gav and myself.

I admire your courage, diligence and wealth - so why go to all those lengths and keep them for your selves ?

NB, my surname is Dézart - thanks.

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18 minutes ago, Lurch said:

Unless an individual wants to pay - in advance - for a set in Magnesium, it is highly unlikely.
Working with Mg creates a whole new group of issues...
As Mr T alluded to in an earlier post, the cost of is exercise is exorbitant, as we are doing it buy the book - FEA, Stress Calcs, destructive testing, engineering type approval...
And no Mr Desert, they are not commercially viable - we may not even make them available to anyone other than Gav and myself. Time will tell. 

I digress... I have nothing to add to this merry-go-round other than:
If you want a set of Mr Deserts wheels, then buy a set.
Or don't.
Simples.

The design was ‘designed’ to be in magnesium, so it might not be as bad as you think.  I would be genuinely interested.
 

what I might do is wait till you’ve made some, then wait to get some of mr desert at half price from your castings and development 😂

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2 hours ago, Sean Dezart said:

Kidney anyone ? 😁

Change of menu? Up to now you've been serving plenty of baloney.

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Off-topic, or maybe actually back on topic, did you buy a certain number of rims, or do you place individual orders with the factory?  It would be interesting to see a picture of a set of wheels side by side, just to see the final finish quality.  Grinding marks, smoothness, etc.  

On the ground off "Made in XXX" area, it looks like the China part was actually ground off of the core mold, not the wheel after it was made.  I assume that these are investment castings, using wax or polystyrene cores?  Why did they do that?  Seems like they would have ground off more ID marks.  Maybe they're not actually made in China?  Not that it really matters, just curious.  We used to work with Korean companies that oversaw production facilities in China.  Manufacturing over there is all inter-connected.

Aside from the business practices, and concerns about "ethics" it's still interesting to see somebody working directly with a Chinese factory.  Many small business spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to get their products made over there.  You can't just call them up and/or go visit.

 

By the way, I took a course in ethics when i was in school and it's an area that can be confusing, and often is.  Ethics are not honesty or morality (I'm not implying a lack of either for Mr. Dezart).  Ethics are actually determined by organizations or groups of people.  There is no universal ethic to be applied to a situation (actually if you Google it people have decided that they know what the "universal code" is.  But, if a person doesn't agree to it, it doesn't count.  The agreeing is the key part)..

Here's an example.  Just to add to the discussion.

https://www.nspe.org/resources/ethics/code-ethics

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4 hours ago, Sean Dezart said:

Why does it matter ? Long story on and off between Alan, Jason and myself but it does matter to you ''Cha Bu Duo'' ! I'm not complaining about M-Speeds' or their retailers' prices here and the market HAS told them they're too expensive.  There are no orders coming into the factory !

Says the factory to you, right? The factory which apparently has absolutely impeccable ethics...

4 hours ago, Sean Dezart said:

I can't see why any of you are complaining - none are posing as M-Speed, they're all coming from the same factory and all of the same factory-inspected quality.

...a factory you can definitely trust, right? 

So, to clarify, you're standing behind the quality if these wheels with what? Their word?

4 hours ago, Sean Dezart said:

You, like the other pair are deliberately casting doubt on these wheels in an attempt to simply scare off buyers. The only way that you want to see wheels like this on the market is expensively so as to deter Joe Dough from buying and therefore their prolification upon Zs......in effect, you want to keep them exclusive !

There's that baloney again. I suppose you think that if you keep repeating it, some of it might stick. Deluded.

4 hours ago, Sean Dezart said:

You, yourself were keen about the M-Speed emulations a year ago - very excited and NOW you have concerns.....none of you want the ordinary guy to have anything that approaches the Holy-Grail styles of period wheels.

Nurse!

4 hours ago, Sean Dezart said:

* and 'enough' is the key word here, M'Speed aren't  and the wheels presumably ordered by them but unpaid are being sold by the factory...I'm not stealing, I'm buying them at the market rate, slightly above that (I believe) of M-Speeds' price. These are the same quality as those seen sonce (2xyears ?) ago and any assumptions to the contrary are not only irresponsable, placing doubt on the M-Speed supplied wheels themselves but complete nonsense designed solely to discourage buyers !

No, what you have done - to all intents and purposes - is collaborate with the Chinese factory in what at the very least is sharp practice and, at worst, sheer grifting.

You will be in no position whatsoever to comment on the situation between the Chinese factory and M-Speed Japan unless you have spoken to both sides and come to some kind of agreement with all sides. I don't know how I can make it any more plain to you and I honestly wonder why the people close to you are not advising you to wind your neck in and to go about this the right way. I think a lawyer would give you some wise words at this point.

4 hours ago, Sean Dezart said:

I'll put up one of these wheels against one bought from the uS M-Speed retailer and someone independant have them both tested in complete confidence that they are exactly the same

Setting aside the fact that JDM Car Parts have no obligation to you, to M-Speed Japan or anybody else to indulge you in your 'test' idea: What exactly will you be providing? How does one of the wheels that you have got in your hands represent what will be coming out of the Chinese factory in future? That's THE WHOLE POINT about the quality. You didn't specify anything in this project. You have not created anything. There would be nothing for you to peddle if it had not been for M-Speed Japan's investment, IP, R&D, QC and everything else that goes with a project like that. M-Speed Japan had a contractual agreement with the Chinese factory so there would naturally be some control of material, quality and consistency over the last two+ years of operations, but you've stepped in out of the blue and you somehow seem to expect that you can inherit all of that? Why?

4 hours ago, Sean Dezart said:

But that is just exactly what you guys want - no more Chinese cheap parts and please, don't mention the community when none of you want 'the community' to benefit.....unless you're rich !

Nobody needs to be "rich" to buy these wheels from M-Speed in Japan. M-Speed Japan's prices are perfectly reasonable considering the costs that will have been incurred in setting up the project, the overheads that a Japanese company incur in day-to-day operations and the profit margins that they levy on their products. That's business, and it is their business. Their main expected market was, and still is, Japan and their prices are perfectly reasonable for that market. You don't have any god-given right to step into that picture and accuse them of both "profiteering" and insufficient sell-through. It's none of your business.

I'll say it again. You should have approached M-Speed Japan and talked to them about this situation before you started dealing with the Chinese factory. The possibility of a distribution deal, an agency or commission based sales would have been good topics for discussion.

Did that not even occur to you? Really, what has happened to you, Sean?

             

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Even after all this, I have my original question. Did Mspeed have an agreement with the factory that prevented them from selling this wheel through other vendors...

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29 minutes ago, Patcon said:

Even after all this, I have my original question. Did Mspeed have an agreement with the factory that prevented them from selling this wheel through other vendors...

Businesses in Mainland China do not operate like western companies. Qualifications, contracts, and certifications mean nothing. They are usually faked.  In fact lying is OK. Most in the west make the mistake that doing business in Mainland China is like doing business in North America, Europe, Australia, Japan, etc.  It is very different.  It is very common for factories to produce extra to sell under the table... if a product is very desired, they will often even build another factory to compete.... there is no IP protection in China and no legal system to fight with.

 

Here is some of the $^!# going on.  Multiply it by a million to get a sense of what is going on world wide.  China Govt extorts foreigners with Chinese ancestors or with relatives in China to spy, steal etc.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-02-04/huawei-sting-offers-rare-glimpse-of-u-s-targeting-chinese-giant

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-chinese-officials-hijacked-my-company-11596233617

 

 

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6 minutes ago, 240260280 said:

Businesses in Mainland China do not operate like western companies. Qualifications, contracts, and certifications mean nothing. They are usually faked.  In fact lying is OK. Most in the west make the mistake that doing business in Mainland China is like doing business in North America, Europe, Australia, Japan, etc.  It is very different.  It is very common for factories to produce extra to sell under the table... if a product is very desired, they will often even build another factory to compete.... there is no IP protection in China and no legal system to fight with.

 

Here is some of the $^!# going on.  Multiply it by a million to get a sense of what is going on world wide.  China Govt extorts foreigners with Chinese ancestors or with relatives in China to spy, steal etc.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-02-04/huawei-sting-offers-rare-glimpse-of-u-s-targeting-chinese-giant

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-chinese-officials-hijacked-my-company-11596233617

 

 

I realize it might not be enforceable or worth the paper it's written on, but does it exists?

I also have no love loss for how business gets done in China. I understand this pretty well.

If they made an agreement with the factory to make wheels in an environment where everyone lies, cheats and steals, they should fully expect product to go out the back door. If you're gonna put capital at risk to develop a wheel or product, then you need to have safeguards in place for that money. It takes two to tango...

If they have an agreement, then I have more sympathy even if China's laws don't support them.

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20 minutes ago, 240260280 said:

Businesses in Mainland China do not operate like western companies. Qualifications, contracts, and certifications mean nothing. They are usually faked.  In fact lying is OK. Most in the west make the mistake that doing business in Mainland China is like doing business in North America, Europe, Australia, Japan, etc.  It is very different.  It is very common for factories to produce extra to sell under the table... if a product is very desired, they will often even build another factory to compete.... there is no IP protection in China and no legal system to fight with.

Yeah  "Cha Bu Duo" basically. 😄

I once bought a Guitar second hand off a so-called collector... It appeared genuine in every sense of the word.

I still have the photos of it.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/6ZSeZFcdnZPfjh7M7

Notice how it has a serial number, Epiphone Branding, and it even came with a little Epiphone Brochure. For all intents and purposes it looks the same, certainly in photos it still looks impressive. I was naive and it was my first electric guitar (still a learner at the time and still am really), but not knowing much about setting up the action or how good pickups should sound I tested it and it seemed ok (the amp was small and not great) so it was hard to really know if it was "kosher" or not.

Anyway after a while I was a bit frustrated with it and took it to my guitar teacher who said the 'action' on it (usually defined by how the strings sit against the fretboard was all off) and it wasn't nice to play. He suggested I take it to get set up right. I take it to a specialist to have to re-configured. He calls me and say "where did you get this guitar from?" I said I bought it off a guy on the Internet second hand - he said he was a collector. He goes on to explain the guitar is not very good and there isn't much that can be done to fix it. He also said it looks like it's made of chipboard type wood.. as oppose to Rosewood. Also the pickups and pots were of interior quality.

Sure enough if you look at the photos you can see the Chipboard under the pickups.

So I sent photos to Epiphone / Gibson and they confirmed it was indeed a fake.

Turns out a lot of places in China that make the official good version for some big American brands of guitar, also as mentioned sometimes have another factory in parallel churn out the "fakes" at a much lower standard but pass them off as legit. It's a huge mess for these companies who then have to try and stop the behavior.

Of course the fella I bought the guitar off had no knowledge of the guitar being a fake and pretty much washed his hands of it. True or not, I was down 400 euros and ended up giving the guitar away..

Just my experience with such situations.

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4 hours ago, Gav240z said:

Yeah  "Cha Bu Duo" basically. 😄

"......considered against the Australian adage of, “good enough for the bush” and the nations pride in bush ingenuity."

It's everywhere these days Gavin with 'just-in-time' production and accountants leading companies and screwing costs down to the last cent to be 'just that little bit' more competitive than the next !

7 hours ago, HS30-H said:

Setting aside the fact that JDM Car Parts have no obligation to you, to M-Speed Japan or anybody else to indulge you in your 'test' idea: What exactly will you be providing? How does one of the wheels that you have got in your hands represent what will be coming out of the Chinese factory in future? That's THE WHOLE POINT about the quality.

How does anyone know how well a factory will fabricate anything down the line - if anyone, chez M-Speed for example, checks anything it'll be a quick visuel inspection  - what else do you expect ? I might know at least as much as you on the subject of quality-control.

7 hours ago, HS30-H said:

You don't have any god-given right to step into that picture and accuse them of both "profiteering" and insufficient sell-through. It's none of your business.

Frankly - this is none of YOUR business either.

 

You're only feeling sorry for a Japanese company trying (and failing) to hide the foreign manufacture of their parts and doing your upmost, all of you, to dissuade anyone from buying them with wild imagination and pure speculation on their actuel and future quality.....and on the way just having a good dig at me personally. And that's it - your gameplay to prohibit the sale of these wheels to the ordinary guy, proud of his Z who's seen these wheels in photos and is now offered the opportunity to own them.....but that, in your minds, 'devalues their curbside appeal' so rather no-one have them.

Please don't label ME selfish !

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6 hours ago, Patcon said:

Even after all this, I have my original question. Did Mspeed have an agreement with the factory that prevented them from selling this wheel through other vendors...

I enquired about this some months back. M-Speed Japan's representative told me that they had made a legal contract with the Chinese casting foundry when they had engaged them to manufacture their wheels for them, and that the Chinese factory had breached this contract by selling these wheels to third parties.

M-Speed Japan were quite clear that they do not authorise these parallel - effectively 'back door' - sales, and that the Chinese factory are in breach of contract.  

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Just trying to understand what is going on here... Already 70 posts on that topic?! Accusations, he says she says, I got a bigger pecker than yours, my father is stronger than yours, 3rd grade schoolyard BS. If anyone wants to be an activist, pick a real fight, plenty to choose from In the real world nowadays... 

The most important question is; What could be the end result of that back and forth endless non sens...? NOTHING but a big waste of time, that’s what is going to come out of it! No moderator on this forum?

If you want the damn wheels buy them, if you don't want them for whatever reasons or beliefs then just dont! That is the most important influence anyone could have on it!

My 2 cents...

Gentlemen please move on!

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24 minutes ago, ZCarFever said:

If you want the damn wheels buy them, if you don't want them for whatever reasons or beliefs then just dont! 

Gentlemen please move on!

Thankyou - agreed.

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11 hours ago, Patcon said:

I realize it might not be enforceable or worth the paper it's written on, but does it exists?

I also have no love loss for how business gets done in China. I understand this pretty well.

If they made an agreement with the factory to make wheels in an environment where everyone lies, cheats and steals, they should fully expect product to go out the back door. If you're gonna put capital at risk to develop a wheel or product, then you need to have safeguards in place for that money. It takes two to tango...

If they have an agreement, then I have more sympathy even if China's laws don't support them.

The sad reality is that western businesses dove head first into China since the 90's and were allowed to close down shop in the west now the problem is coming to a head.... their IP is now in the hands of the corrupt Chinese Govt (Gangsters) and so are their manufacturing factories. The only quick way out is for "regime change" in China.... they need a revolution to free the slaves/people from the evil Communist Party.  When we buy Mainland Chinese products we support this evil modern-slavery situation.

 

 

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1 hour ago, 240260280 said:

The sad reality is that western businesses dove head first into China since the 90's and were allowed to close down shop in the west now the problem is coming to a head

Who, since the  mid '60s bought all the Japanese cars, motorbikes, radios, Walkmans (showing my age), ships....who invited them to build factories in our countries ?

1 hour ago, 240260280 said:

When we buy Mainland Chinese products we support this evil modern-slavery situation.

And Burma, India, Bangladesh, Parkistan plus oil from Iran, Saudia Arabia.......the worlds isn't a 'clean ' place.

 

 

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