ensys

Electro-phile Follies, Vol.2

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    Today's saga is lifted from the pages of reality...

    In the course of the re-install of the '77 280's floor console, I discovered an anomaly in the operation of the hatch window Defogger; the switch activates the heating grid, but not the indicator at the console. No need to chase a bulb issue tho, as switching the ign. to "On" activates a "test" cycle (that is clearly operated by the "Seat Belt Warning Timer located in the relay group in the pass. footwell) that successfully activates the Defog indicator for a few seconds, so clearly the fault in not in the indicator. Nor is it in the connectors of each to the main harness, as all are original plugs that are clean and properly connected.

    Some intensive research using the wiring diagrams from both the FSM and the most excellent ClassicZcar version, resulted only in two interesting questions:

    Why does the Defog switch operate the heating elements, but not the indicator?

    How is the indicator connected to the Timer?

    This last is particularly vexing, as none of the diagrams in the FSM, nor the CZc version indicate any connection whatsoever (that I can see) to the timer relay. Not thru the switch, nor the Defogger relay, nor the ign. relay or F.I. relay.

    So there's the challenge. Any takers?

    Of collateral interest:

    While poring over the diagrams, I became aware of three new (to me) errors in the CZc version, one of which is shared with the Factory full diagram. As they would be difficult to describe verbally (a process fraught with opportunities for misunderstanding), I had prepared a small (220k.) .jpg as a visual aid, only to discover that apparently my "uploading" mojo has failed/been foiled in the last 30 days, prohibiting its posting.

    So the short form verbal is that they involve the internal diagrams of the Defog and Ign. relays and their connection to Body Ground.

    Of the bunch, the sudden inability to upload is the most perplexing and annoying, so a reasonable answer to this is worth Big Bonus Points.

    Any takers?

     

     

     

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    Q - "How is the (defrost) indicator connected to the Timer?"
    A - It's not.

    Q - "Why does the Defog switch operate the heating elements, but not the indicator?"
    A - Probably because the defog indicator bulb is burned out.

    So how can those answers be correct despite all of your intensive research?

    It sounds to me like there are two faults...  1) Your defogger indicator bulb IS burned out, and 2) You have the indicator bulbs for the defogger indicator and fasten seat belts indicators swapped.

    Without being able to take any measurements from here, that's the simplest I got.

    Does your blue "FASTEN SEAT BELTS" warning lamp come on when you turn the ignition to "ON"?

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    Mr.C.O.:

    You have aptly demonstrated the value of a fresh perspective.

    So my Kudos to you, Sir You're half wrong (no.1), but I think you're spot on with no.2, and I'm embarrassed that I did not see it, given the obvious clues. Clearly, not my shinning moment in Deductive Logic. Too many follow-the-wires distractions to notice the diagram's indication of identical harness plugs for the two indicators.

    I reckon if I had re-installed the seat belt indicator, I would have seen this sooner.

    I'll have to verify of course, but as that will require doing the inconvenient unmounting of the console (it's gotten quite crowded back there, making the fit something of a pain), it will probably be a while (not the most pressing issue on my to-do list) before I do.


    Now, if someone could figure out why I suddenly cannot post jpegs, we could talk about the diagram errors....

     

     

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    Glad to hear that I nailed it. Woot.

    And BTW... From a distance with no meter measurements, I've diagnosed and identified a problem with your car that you have unable to fix yourself, and the reaction is "kudos, you're half wrong".

    I've identified the problem that has been confusing you to the point where you needed to ask for help, and your reaction is to make sure that I know I wasn't 100% correct when I said "Your defogger indicator bulb IS burned out" because the REAL story is "Your defogger bulb is not installed".

    Well maybe it's just me, but that kind of response makes it difficult to want to help in the future. Just like last time with your other thread.

    So feel free to now spend a whole bunch of words* telling me why my reaction is wrong. Or just don't. And keep it in mind for the future instead.

     

    * A whoooooolle bunch. And make sure you include one or two words that make mere mortals reach for their dictionary because they don't have as awesome as a vocabulary as you do.

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    3 hours ago, Captain Obvious said:

    And BTW... From a distance with no meter measurements, I've diagnosed and identified a problem with your car that you have unable to fix yourself, and the reaction is "kudos, you're half wrong".

    Actually, you weren't "half wrong." There isn't a timer, so you are only 1/4 wrong. 😉 Of course, if the OP could RTFSM, he would discover that there is absolutely no mention of a timer in that circuit. He could even discover how the circuit is wired from the simple break-out included. Perhaps simple reading comprehension is of more use than Roget's. 

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    • Haha 1

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    LOL  !!

    Actually Mr.J, you're either 0% wrong or 100% wrong.

    There is no timer in the defroster circuit. But there IS a timer in the 77 seat belt warning circuit. So it depends on which circuit you're talking about.  Or we could split the difference and you can join The Half club.   It's exclusive.    :beer:

    • Haha 1

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    ...

    Edited by Zed Head

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    2 hours ago, Captain Obvious said:

      Or we could split the difference and you can join The Half club.   It's exclusive.    :beer:

    Is that like the Half A ssed club, if so I want to join, I've got credentials.....

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    It might well be that ensys doesn't realize the effect his writing style has.  Plus he's still worked up over the inability to post images.  But, still, a problem was solved.

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    Thank you Mr.Head for injecting a note of maturity among this mean-spirited nattering of adolescent bully boys.

    The only effect I'm trying to achieve is clarity, and hopefully with a little panache. Apparently, this scares some folks, tho I can't, no, I don't want to imagine why.

    Yes, a problem was solved, but not without the price of being the butt of derision. Frankly, the "brilliance" of the solution was not worth it.

    Still, it's my own fault for misjudging the situation. I made the error of assuming that helpful advice is more important than stroking egos, and that shared problem solving is more entertaining than seizing/fabricating any reason to ridicule and insult. It's my bad for forgetting these very lessons from the last thread.

    I should have known that for some folks, asking for help on this forum is taken as a sign of weakness. I don't think that's how this is supposed to work, but it's my bad for forgetting that no one here ever needs a hand or makes a mistake.

    It's also my fault for not realizing that reading comprehension is so obviously in short supply, as its lack is the true source of the petty and pointless dialogs in reply.

    And of course, my biggest error was in assuming I am dealing with adults, not high school rowdies, making fun of the kid with glasses.

    I'll keep this in mind in the future and lower my expectations accordingly.

     

    And yes, I would still like to know why I cannot now post images, when I could a month ago.

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    8 hours ago, Zed Head said:

    Sounds like you're saying that ensys could have his defroster work by leaving his seat belt disconnected, if he replaced that indicator bulb and did some rewiring.  Am I comprehending that right?

    A working defroster isn't dependent upon the indicating light. CO has identified that the OP has crossed connected things that were designed not to be cross connected. As Egon said, "Don't cross the streams." 

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    ...

    Edited by Zed Head
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    Mr.Head:

    Et tu, Brutus? Just when I thought you had a handle on something besides a knife.

    Let me set you straight:

    Not being possessed of a fragile ego, asking questions, seeking learned advice, or occasionally putting my foot in my mouth in the process, has never been a problem issue for me; it's how one learns. That is, until I started to do so around here, which is more akin to putting a target on your back..

    By the same token, it never occurs to me that "gracious" is the correct response to ill-mannered behavior and hostile demeanor, in what is supposed to be a civil and non-judgmental conversation about cars. If one expects "thank you sir, may I have another" after none-too-subtle pokes in the eye, yer barkin' up the wrong tree.

    You're right about one thing tho: My Bad for not better adjusting my presentations to suit the lower common denominator of this specific audience. So of course, I must take the blame for optimistically assuming an inappropriate level of reading skill, attention span, and comprehension, let alone any real desire to communicate that which does not enhance a web image or provoke a laff, especially at someone else's expense. And of course, in certain circles here, literacy earns extra penalty points.

    But I'm learning...  much that has nothing to do with Zs. 

     

     

     

    Edited by ensys

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    Edited by Zed Head

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    Edited by Zed Head

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    Mr.Head:

    My, aren't you the helpful fellow. I can tell you I appreciate the effort, no matter how aspirational it may be. A clumsy attempt at cutesy sarcasm to be sure, but you have unknowingly added the icing on this half-baked cake of boorish behavior.

    "why are you here?"

    Exactly.  While the first post of this thread was quite specific about its purpose (help solve an electrical problem), by the fourth post, that train of thought had been switched to the siding of personality issues, so it's no wonder that you (and the others) have forgotten the point. I reckon it's that attention-span thing.

    I know I'm tired of this lame excuse for repartee that has nothing to do with the electrical systems of a Z, a subject that can inspire more widespread interest than a dust-up by the kids on the playground.

    Believe it or else, there are a respectable number of sincere enthusiasts that would like to know about wiring diagram issues beyond the kerfuffle over a mistake I acknowledged immediately. Still waiting in the wings are diagram issues that could effect the pursuit of problem solutions for 280Z owners.

    After all, isn't that kind of information sharing the whole idea of this joint; or have hissy fits, cat fights, and ego-strutting become the forum's reason for existence.

    Which do you think it should be, Mr.Mike?

    And while I have your attention Sir, got any ideas about how I lost the ability to post an image in just 30-some days (with no changes in equipment or programs, and over three different platforms)?

    Inquiring minds want to know...

     

     

     

    Edited by ensys

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    Edited by Zed Head

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    Maybe not, but you're certainly losing.

    But hey, who's keeping score? You?

     

     

    Edited by ensys
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    1 hour ago, ensys said:

    Which do you think it should be, Mr.Mike?

    And while I have your attention Sir, got any ideas about how I lost the ability to post an image in just 30-some days (with no changes in equipment or programs, and over three different platforms)?

    Our mission is simply to discuss anything Z-car related, in a supportive environment.  I apologize if any of our members have come across egocentric and it's my intent to stop this from happening.  I want all members to feel welcome and confident their posts will not be trolled.

    As far as your images are concerned, you may want to send me a private message as there should be no reason for this to stop working.

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