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1972 240Z Vintage Z Program Car up for Auction on BaT

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HS30-H

So the VZ cars aren’t bad, they are ok. They just aren’t unique or particularly rare and everyone needs to understand that.

Very good points. Glad you spoke up so we know! Haha

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30 minutes ago, SpeedRoo said:

Aston Martin only started doing it in the last 5 to 6 years, they never did it before that. Let's not let the facts get in the way of a good story now. The DB4 Zagato Sanction 2 cars in the late 1980s/early 1990s were essentially 4 brand new cars with newly issued chassis numbers.

I'm not talking about the 'Sanction 2' cars. Not the same thing at all.

I'm talking about the active buying-in, in-house restoring, then selling-on as 'Factory Refurbished' cars (with a one year warranty) which Aston Martin Works Service were carrying out since at least the late 1970s, if not earlier. It was done because there was a demand for it, and the will to do it.

Five or six years? I've brought up the point here on this forum several times in the past, and have brought up the Aston Martin Works Service example (amongst others) in relation to the 'VZ' cars at least 14 years ago.

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43 minutes ago, SpeedRoo said:

Let's not let the facts get in the way of a good story now.

:Mic Drop:

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54 minutes ago, HS30-H said:

I'm not talking about the 'Sanction 2' cars. Not the same thing at all.

I'm talking about the active buying-in, in-house restoring, then selling-on as 'Factory Refurbished' cars (with a one year warranty) which Aston Martin Works Service were carrying out since at least the late 1970s, if not earlier. It was done because there was a demand for it, and the will to do it.

Five or six years? I've brought up the point here on this forum several times in the past, and have brought up the Aston Martin Works Service example (amongst others) in relation to the 'VZ' cars at least 14 years ago.

You seem to be living in an alternate reality, Aston Martin never bought in cars and sold them as factory refurbished. It's only in the last five or six years it has happened as that is when the works service side of the operation became licensed to sell cars. Best to stick to what you know Alan rather than spouting mistruths about stuff you know nothing of. I speak from experience as the former Director of Service has been quite a good friend since the 1980's and provided me unlimited access to the records. A lot of the information is in the books I have written on Aston Martin.

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7 hours ago, SpeedRoo said:

You seem to be living in an alternate reality, Aston Martin never bought in cars and sold them as factory refurbished. It's only in the last five or six years it has happened as that is when the works service side of the operation became licensed to sell cars. Best to stick to what you know Alan rather than spouting mistruths about stuff you know nothing of. I speak from experience as the former Director of Service has been quite a good friend since the 1980's and provided me unlimited access to the records. A lot of the information is in the books I have written on Aston Martin.

The last five or six years? So when I was posting about Aston Martin Works Service's past and continuing activities on this forum - with relation to the claim of the 'VZ' program being "unique" - more than ten years ago, I was predicting the future? I'll add that to my CV.

No, I was stating a fact. The "alternate reality" is the one where the 'VZ' program is "unique in automotive history". Pure fantasy or just more USA-bubble type introspection, you choose. It's the same as the 'conversation' on BaT where nobody is allowed to mention the 432 or 432-R, but mention of the Toyota 2000GT, Honda NSX and even Mazda Miata is just fine and dandy. Deluded.

Aston Martin Works Service - just the same as any other UK-based business - do not need any 'license' to sell cars. Especially what are - essentially, just like the 'VZ' program cars - refurbished used cars with their original identities intact. Some people here will no doubt believe you, but it simply isn't true. What 'license', and issued by whom? Nonsense. 

Noted that we appear to be on first name terms now. Presumptuous of you. Apparently you still call yourself 'Roo', as you did when you asked me to give you data on the 432R. If you had introduced yourself with a feasible and believable name I might have considered it. I think my spidey senses were right. 

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As a manufacturer they did have a business license to sell vehicles to the public as a motor vehicle trader. At no time before 2014 did Aston Martin buy and refurbish cars to sell back to the public. They happily restored a car for customers though. I had a continuing conversation with the managing director about buying cars, restoring them and selling them off their own forecourt at Newport Pagnell which is what they have ended up doing, once they became a separate commercial entity from the factory. Have to say I would believe the MD on any Aston Martin matter before I would listen to your drivel again Alan.

Have been called Roo for over 20 years, many people know me by that name in various walks of life...they seem to think its feasible and believable. Had no trouble getting the data on the 432R I was looking for, many generous knowledgeable people were happy to share the information, just as I happily do with my Aston Martin knowledge. The only dubious character I have come across in the "Z" world is yourself.

Roo

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7 hours ago, SpeedRoo said:

As a manufacturer they did have a business license to sell vehicles to the public as a motor vehicle trader. At no time before 2014 did Aston Martin buy and refurbish cars to sell back to the public. They happily restored a car for customers though.

Not true. You can split the hairs any way you want about Aston Martin's activities but the fact is that they were selling bought-in (often through trade-ins) factory-refurbed cars long before 2014 and I cited this activity in relation to the "unique" VZ claim on this very forum more than ten years ago. I believe I gave a specific example of one such car too (I even took a test ride in one which a work colleague was considering for purchase). Is this the kind of "drivel" you are referring to?

I note you don't have anything to say about Bristol Cars or the other examples I cited. Maybe you're more motivated to prove me wrong than in proving that the 'VZ' program was "unique in automotive history"...?

 

7 hours ago, SpeedRoo said:

Have been called Roo for over 20 years, many people know me by that name in various walks of life...they seem to think its feasible and believable. Had no trouble getting the data on the 432R I was looking for, many generous knowledgeable people were happy to share the information, just as I happily do with my Aston Martin knowledge. The only dubious character I have come across in the "Z" world is yourself.

A new member with no feedback, using a pseudonym, sends me a PM asking for a list of 432-R chassis numbers. My spidey senses tingle and I do not reply, considering it better to wait and see. Lo and behold another PM with a snotty retort to the effect that he'd got what he wanted elsewhere and thanks for nothing.

Turns out you were planning a 432-R 'replica', right? I'm sure a list of original 432-R chassis numbers would be very useful for that. What could possibly go wrong?  I think I was right to be dubious. Dubious is a good default position.

 

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I can say with complete confidence that Aston did their own recreations before 2014, I think there were some at Goodwood when I use to work there(2009-12), also that they started doing them in the late 80's, however the early ones were for racing i know.

What I don't get/trust is some on the BAT thread.

Every factually correct post gets removed, people trying to pass on their own version of facts as correct for their own agendas.  Not to mention all the sellers in the threads saying i've sold x for $$$$$$ off here trying to artificially increase prices.

Edited by Jason240z
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I concur, the BaT conversation was entertaining; something along the sit-com style.  I did notice one of your posts deleted, Alan, and I don't understand how that happened other than my previous clown-show comment.  I read it and then saw it deleted later.

The VZ program was indeed a unique event in automotive history, on many different points of argument, and ranks right up there in the mentionables category.  Alan, I think your point is on an intellectual platform, far different than the sensationalistic cries of passion we saw on BaT.  The Dream Garage ad campaign and the Z Store were a two million dollar event at Nissan USA in the late 90s.  They signaled the end of the Z-car for a period of time.  That was a big deal.  Considering the scale at which Nissan USA approached the restoration program, it was pretty damned unique.  Were they the first, the only; did Nissan "conceive" of this outrageous idea?  No.  Of course not.  Factory reconditioning and resale goes back to before the war.  Read your automotive history.  We don't need to quibble about Aston Martin.

The sensationalists ruled the day, however, and some poor bastard took home a car that needed work for a price five times what that car would have cost ten years ago.  Personally, I'm encouraged.

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1 hour ago, 26th-Z said:

The VZ program was indeed a unique event in automotive history, on many different points of argument, and ranks right up there in the mentionables category.  Alan, I think your point is on an intellectual platform, far different than the sensationalistic cries of passion we saw on BaT.  The Dream Garage ad campaign and the Z Store were a two million dollar event at Nissan USA in the late 90s.  They signaled the end of the Z-car for a period of time.  That was a big deal.  Considering the scale at which Nissan USA approached the restoration program, it was pretty damned unique.  Were they the first, the only; did Nissan "conceive" of this outrageous idea?  No.  Of course not.  Factory reconditioning and resale goes back to before the war.  Read your automotive history.  We don't need to quibble about Aston Martin.

Chris,

I absolutely concur that the wider 'Z Store' project was unique, and that in turn the 'VZ Program' part of it was unique in its wider scope of volume buy-in (the "scale" that you mention) and commissioned restoration for resale. I don't need to concede that because it's a given. What I don't agree with is the ill-informed hyperbole from certain individuals who really ought to know better, and I find that a more measured appraisal - like yours - is better for the marque in the long run. As you point out, and others do not want to believe, in the past other motor manufacturers have restored their own used cars for resale and some continue to do so. That aspect is not "unique".

For me, a lot of this goes back to those days when people were talking about "Factory restoration" and leading people to believe this project was something other than what it really was. A lot of people didn't like the clarification being made, but when automotive journalists - who should know better - were themselves believing that the cars had been sent back to Japan and, in turn, misleading their readers, I believe the term "Factory restoration" was an inappropriate term for us to throw around. Is it my imagination or are we doing a better job of describing these cars than we used to?  

I have to say that your work on rounding up the facts and putting the whole thing into some semblance of order for us has been a great benefit to the legacy of the 'VZ' project, and will have certainly helped this latest BaT sale even if the cast in the sitcom didn't know it. Your data and explanation of the whole story was certainly a great benefit to one Japanese owner whom I passed it on to, and he was very grateful. Good work. Thank you.       

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Hi Alan , I am now dreaming about to own a VZ , then install a S20 . I am wondering how I can draw attention from people in the US . ( not in Japan . People always give higher Regards to RHD Z s ) . 

When I get old soon , I will have to let my cars go to someone.  Finally I will have one car , and A VZ with a S20 would be a single fireworks ball for my graduation of Z life ? 

Chris , I have a question. A VZ is never eligible to attend the ZCCA judged car show , is it true ? If it is true , Where would I set off a fireworks? On BAT ?

I see recent results on BAT is telling that provenance and / or clearness bring a huge demand of enthusiasts.

Not so important about originals details.

So If I put a S20 on a VZ doesn’t hurt the value of the car , does it ? ( of course all the components which came with the car are included for the buyer ) .

I am just drea😋ming about . I have a particular VZ car in my mind.

Kats

6F4C39C4-10E0-485E-AF33-104DF49F9D71.jpeg

Edited by kats
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2 hours ago, kats said:

Hi Alan , I am now dreaming about to own a VZ , then install a S20 . I am wondering how I can draw attention from people in the US . ( not in Japan . People always give higher Regards to RHD Z s ) . 

When I get old soon , I will have to let my cars go to someone.  Finally I will have one car , and A VZ with a S20 would be a single fireworks ball for my graduation of Z life ? 

 

 

I am just drea😋ming about . I have a particular VZ car in my mind.

6F4C39C4-10E0-485E-AF33-104DF49F9D71.jpeg

Kats,

As you know, I am all in favour of your LHD S20-engined plan. I'm cheering you on! However, I can't say that I have taken on any of my own project cars and thought about future value. How much would my 432-R 'replica' project car be worth if I had to sell it? Maybe not even as much as the component parts would sell for. And my white 240ZG that I'm now putting together would probably be worth more as a totally stock 240ZG, but I don't want to do that... I hink you should do what you want to and take a few people with you on your journey. Any car will find a buyer in the end, and who would not want to buy an ex-Kats car?

I don't think this BaT bubble is going to last all that long. It's a really strange format for me. Bidding on a car you cannot personally inspect in the metal before buying is never ideal, and it seems to me that a relatively small group of people are commenting on the auctions - some of them 'bidding' - and the BaT site owners are moderating comments before they are posted. One or two characters seem to be allowed to say almost anything they like whilst controlling the narrative. There's a potential for all sorts of shenanigans. 

Your 'S20-powered VZ' project might change a few minds. According to our new BaT friend 'Lstepp4re' apparently "....Here in the US we didn’t know of or care about JDM.. we knew about Datsun 240Zs that most of us couldn’t afford or acquire ..and as such ..99% of the people on this site ..just don’t care about the JDM market...".  He reminds me of somebody.

My personal favourite 'VZ' car? This one:

   

Vintage Z car in Japan-1.jpg

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7 hours ago, HS30-H said:

Kats,

As you know, I am all in favour of your LHD S20-engined plan. I'm cheering you on! However, I can't say that I have taken on any of my own project cars and thought about future value. How much would my 432-R 'replica' project car be worth if I had to sell it? Maybe not even as much as the component parts would sell for. And my white 240ZG that I'm now putting together would probably be worth more as a totally stock 240ZG, but I don't want to do that... I hink you should do what you want to and take a few people with you on your journey. Any car will find a buyer in the end, and who would not want to buy an ex-Kats car?

I don't think this BaT bubble is going to last all that long. It's a really strange format for me. Bidding on a car you cannot personally inspect in the metal before buying is never ideal, and it seems to me that a relatively small group of people are commenting on the auctions - some of them 'bidding' - and the BaT site owners are moderating comments before they are posted. One or two characters seem to be allowed to say almost anything they like whilst controlling the narrative. There's a potential for all sorts of shenanigans. 

Your 'S20-powered VZ' project might change a few minds. According to our new BaT friend 'Lstepp4re' apparently "....Here in the US we didn’t know of or care about JDM.. we knew about Datsun 240Zs that most of us couldn’t afford or acquire ..and as such ..99% of the people on this site ..just don’t care about the JDM market...".  He reminds me of somebody.

My personal favourite 'VZ' car? This one:

   

Vintage Z car in Japan-1.jpg

A few point mr HS30-H

1) Please never sell the 432r 'recreation'

2) Can I go on the list, even if its just to say "I can't afford it'

3)That 'vz' car is in my top 5 all time fav's!!

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7 hours ago, HS30-H said:

.. I hink you should do what you want to and take a few people with you on your journey. Any car will find a buyer in the end, and who would not want to buy an ex-Kats car?

 

I agree whole heartedly......in the 70’s, these cars were driven off the show room floor and immediately began the transition to being personalized to become a car to be driven. Stock restored Z’s are cool to look at, but if you have one beside it with some goodies to bring it up to snuff, you are going to climb in the modified Z every time. In the 70’s, you noticed the lowered, spoilered, wider wheels and tuned exhaust Z’s with a lot more respect than the stock cars. John Morton and Pete Brock and Bob Sharp were responsible......these cars are easy to modify and a blast to drive hard.......they are all cool cars, just some cooler than others!

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Same car........which one you gonna want to borrow? LOL

95DA4819-9B46-454E-9936-BAC029851054.jpeg

3639780C-9CB1-4E42-9166-EE9645349D32.jpeg

 

 

Edited by Diseazd
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Thank you for the kind words, Alan.  I'm certainly not expecting any sort of concession.  You are right with your recollection of the "factory restoration" conversation.  That was particularly what started my research.  For the record:

Two articles written about the Vintage Zs describe them as “factory” restored insinuating to the uninformed reader that the cars were returned to the original Japanese factory for restoration.  One article appeared in the June 1998 issue of “Road & Track” magazine entitled; “ Datsun 240Z, Factory Resurrected”.  Interestingly, Douglas Kott reports a price of $29,950 which may have been the case 12 months after the Z-Store program began.  An article that appeared in the March 1997 Z Car Club of Washington newsletter references a factory restoration.  Phil Deushane, IAPA, discusses the unprecedented task of a factory restoration and resale of an original car.  He refers to the “restoration shop” during a discussion of the logistics of such a task, however it is vague concerning whom is doing what.  Interestingly, Marc Sayer reports in the summer issue of “ZCar” magazine;

            “…Nissan would prefer for people to think of these cars as having come from Nissan rather than from a particular subcontractor, a sentiment I heartily endorse.”

Marc discusses the introduction of Pierre Perrot as reserved for the Vintage Z Rally       “I also think that Nissan wanted to make a big deal of the announcement of who the renovators were at the launch.”

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Not sure I understand how any factory can do a "factory restoration". The factory builds new cars, usually on an assembly line, using new components. They have certification/homologation approval from their relevant national authority to do so which allows them to sell the vehicle as a new car in applicable markets.  Now the factory may have their service/restoration department restore a car to as new condition but that is still not a "factory restoration". With the Z Store program my understanding is Nissan USA commissioned the restoration of 37 cars to as new condition which they sold through Nissan dealers in the USA. NOS stock components from their warehouse were used and I think 4 outside "Z" specialists tasked with the restorations.

The Z Store 240Z I want to know more about is the rarest one, number 38 of 37. The 240ZR as the Z Store likes to refer to it!

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19 minutes ago, SpeedRoo said:

Not sure I understand how any factory can do a "factory restoration".

Allow me to help you understand how it happens in the case of Porsche Factory Restored cars.

https://www.porsche.com/international/accessoriesandservice/classic/factoryrestoration/

Let me know if you have questions.

Dennis

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Thanks Dennis, interesting program. Just as I said, it is the Porsche owned classic restoration program, not done in the factory where they build cars but in their dedicated service/restoration shops. Ferrari, Aston Martin, etc all have similar programs. 

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